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What did you learn about birth that you wish someone had told you? - Page 6

post #101 of 132

I'm all for accurate information about breastfeeding so that women can make informed choices, but I disagree with your basic premise that barring physiological barriers, EBF is always the right choice for families  We'll have to agree to disagree here because I suspect I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

post #102 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serafina33 View Post 

 

It's society's job to undo the damage so thoroughly done over decades by big corp making tons of money off of pushing formula, and a shift in attitudes from 'yeah, tons of moms can't make enough milk,' to 'actually, with enough support, most  (but not quite all) women will be able to EBF the first six months'.   We owe it to girls coming into maturity, to provide this accurate message to them, and fight the misinformation that it's common for women not to make enough milk.  It's a really, really dominant theme that I hear again and again both in the US and in Europe, and it makes me so sad that we are failing women as a society by not providing enough knowledge and lactation support, and perpetuating ideas and practices that sabotage the breastfeeding relationship.

 

 

I didn't have this experience you describe above at all.  In fact, I was often bombarded with people pushing BF on me.  I simply threw out free the cans of Enfamil and Similac  I kept getting and make it a point to never buy their products because they DO discourage breastfeeding.  I don't think society in general needs to be targeting ME or moms; it's high time we targeted these companies instead.

post #103 of 132
Quote:

It is only insensitive if a woman chooses to take it personally.  Serafina33 did not say someone's feelings shouldn't or don't matter.  She said the bigger picture is what needs to be focused on vs. the small minority who are going to choose their feelings no matter what anyone else does.  (When I say small minority, I'm also including those woman who scream at the top of their lungs that everyone around them is trying to make them feel guilty when all that's really happening is information is being shared.  Taking things personally is an epidemic in our society & people seem to scream the loudest about parenting/breastfeeding/etc. stuff.)

 

Sus

 

 

Did you not read what I big bolded?  She did say that.  She said

 

 

Quote:
  That's more important than the tiny percentage of moms who can't EBF feeling marginalized.

 

I'm not sure how that sentence can be interpreted other than some people's feelings don't matter.  I don't take it personally, because it has nothing to do with me.  It's not a nice thing to say though.  How is that in dispute?

 

Anyhow, what's to argue about here?  I can kind of see where Seraphina is coming from, even if I don't agree with her.  But you have clearly stated you don't value the feelings of women who aren't parenting the way that you think is best, and you don't have to care.  I am not going to tell you that you have to care.  Keep preaching it sister.  But I am gonna sit here and think, "Wow, that's rude and kind of insensitive."  

post #104 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post

 

It is only insensitive if a woman chooses to take it personally.  Serafina33 did not say someone's feelings shouldn't or don't matter.  She said the bigger picture is what needs to be focused on vs. the small minority who are going to choose their feelings no matter what anyone else does.  (When I say small minority, I'm also including those woman who scream at the top of their lungs that everyone around them is trying to make them feel guilty when all that's really happening is information is being shared.  Taking things personally is an epidemic in our society & people seem to scream the loudest about parenting/breastfeeding/etc. stuff.)

 

Sus

 

Serafina pretty much did say that she thinks her cause is more important than the feelings of a minority.  The minority she was referring to is the minority who can't EBF.

 

This topic of women taking something personally is kind of beside the point. I take everything personally.  A general lecture about breastfeeding without taking in to account the individual is clearly not helping the women who CAN BF to get the individualized attention they need to do so successfully; it's just lazy civic-minded BS for people who want to think they are doing society a favor.  And it's been used in politics and the media for centuries for one reason: money.

post #105 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclamen View Post

Quote:

It is only insensitive if a woman chooses to take it personally.  Serafina33 did not say someone's feelings shouldn't or don't matter.  She said the bigger picture is what needs to be focused on vs. the small minority who are going to choose their feelings no matter what anyone else does.  (When I say small minority, I'm also including those woman who scream at the top of their lungs that everyone around them is trying to make them feel guilty when all that's really happening is information is being shared.  Taking things personally is an epidemic in our society & people seem to scream the loudest about parenting/breastfeeding/etc. stuff.)

 

Sus

 

 

Did you not read what I big bolded?  She did say that.  She said

 

 

Quote:
  That's more important than the tiny percentage of moms who can't EBF feeling marginalized.

 

I'm not sure how that sentence can be interpreted other than some people's feelings don't matter.  I don't take it personally, because it has nothing to do with me.  It's not a nice thing to say though.  How is that in dispute? 

It is in dispute because saying that A is more important than B does not imply that B DOES NOT MATTER.  That is fuzzy logic indeed. and putting words in my mouth, which offends me.

 

I indeed indicated that it IS important not to make women feel bad if they can't breastfeed, when i said, " But, as important as it is not to hurt the feelings of the small percentage ...."

 

I just also made it clear that I feel that babies having the best shot at getting mother's milk is even more important.  It's quite a leap to make (and shows a pretty defensive attitude), to say that although I specifically indicated that all women's feelings on the matter are important, specifically the small minority who can't succeed at breastfeeding, I simply said that babies' needs are even more important.  If someone wants to argue that a grown woman's getting irritated or offended is more important than a newborn baby having the best chance at the best start in life, then go ahead, I'm open to hearing that argument.

post #106 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by demeter888 View Post
 I don't think society in general needs to be targeting ME or moms; it's high time we targeted these companies instead.

 

I think society does need to target spreading specific breastfeeding-friendly knowledge to new mothers.  I'm glad you got that message bombarded, but I know so many moms who didn't get the support they needed.  I think more support throughout society for all mothers is the answer.  But your idea is interesting. How to target the companies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post
 

It is only insensitive if a woman chooses to take it personally.  Serafina33 did not say someone's feelings shouldn't or don't matter.   

Thank you very much Sus, for reading the actual words I posted, without distorting them in any way, and certainly without assuming that because I'm more concerned with the big picture of more babies getting breastfed, that it's a natural leap to make that I could care less about individual's feelings.  

post #107 of 132

I could just kiss you for most of that, especially the skin to skin!!

The 2 things I'd like to add are "other peoples' advice is for other people, use what you want but discard what doesn't sit right for you"
"Guilt is what you are meant to feel because it's your job to want to always do better, but you have every right to let yourself know that it's just a superficial feeling and you are doing a great job"

post #108 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serafina33 View Post

 

I think society does need to target spreading specific breastfeeding-friendly knowledge to new mothers.  I'm glad you got that message bombarded, but I know so many moms who didn't get the support they needed.  I think more support throughout society for all mothers is the answer.  But your idea is interesting. How to target the companies?

 

 

Politicians use the trick of job creation and campaigns for the public interest to fix problems created by their corporate financial supporters to avoid stepping on any toes.  Instead of targeting the culprits-these corporations -we are circumventing and making it a general public mission to target the moms. It's a losing game.  Moms are fine, babies get fed.  

 

I understand now that you don't think the minority of women who can't EBF are not the scum of the earth and whatnot, but making it a moral issue when it's really a financial one is beside the point IMHO.

post #109 of 132

Peace ladies, I'm out.  I'm not going to argue over what you said because what you said is clear.  

post #110 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serafina33 View Post

The problem with this wish is that formula companies and all their money were so successful for decades in reducing women's (and more importantly, society's support for women's) confidence in the fact that most women can indeed provide enough milk for their child with enough knowledge and support.  Not 100%, but certainly the vast majority.  All sorts of practices became mainstream in the twentieth century that sabotage the likelihood that breastfeeding will be successful, and the formula companies got rich from mother's who believed that they "didn't produce enough milk" and "had to supplement", when really it was "modern" practices/elements in the environment which failed the mother and baby pair, and led to premature weaning.  

Nowadays, amongst the mothers I've talked to about breastfeeding, since becoming a mother myself more than a decade ago, I'd say a crazy high percentage of them talk about 'not having had enough milk'  and needing to supplement and wean early as if it's a totally everyday thing, like diaper rash.  In my experience, it's about half of the moms I've ever talked to.  That's so sad, because that means that most of those were simply failed by society who did not provide enough support and assistance in order to make a success of breastfeeding.   

Based on my anecdotal perceptions, the breastfeeding community still has a lot of work to do to undo the effects of a crazy successful cultural shift towards formula via an overt campaign and subtler practices introduced in the 20th century that were consciously waged to undermine breastfeeding by the big formula companies.

Even ardent lactivists (such as myself) admit that not quite 100% of mothers will be able to produce enough milk (and of course will need to supplement).  But, as important as it is not to hurt the feelings of the small percentage of moms who really will need to supplement (and I don't see why their feelings need to be hurt, no one in the breastfeeding community says that 100% of woman will be able to EBF for 6 months and that there should be any shame in those few seeking out supplementation) ,  it's most important not to perpetuate misinformation about how likely that is to happen to any given woman, by implying in any way shape or form that it is at all a common occurance, or anything other than the exception to the norm.  That will result in less babies enjoying the benefits of breastfeeding.  That's more important than the tiny percentage of moms who can't EBF feeling marginalized.

Yeah, I'm not talking about women who give up after a few days. I'm talking about mothers who did everything they could to nurse their babies and their children were losing weight. It happens. But thank you for your post, because your attitude is EXACTLY what I'm talking about:-)
Edited by scottishmommy - 8/9/13 at 4:10pm
post #111 of 132

I'm a bit late to this, but what surprised me the most was that (with a hospital birth) people are constantly reaching inside you to "check" whatever, and rooting around, and it HURTS!  Of course, I was induced twice so that's a little more "hands-on" (haha) but still…yikes.  That's the first thing I tell my pregnant friends- expect lots of feels.

post #112 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by effulgent7 View Post

I'm a bit late to this, but what surprised me the most was that (with a hospital birth) people are constantly reaching inside you to "check" whatever, and rooting around, and it HURTS!  Of course, I was induced twice so that's a little more "hands-on" (haha) but still…yikes.  That's the first thing I tell my pregnant friends- expect lots of feels.

 

I had a midwife in my hospital delivery and was not checked early on more than twice.  I arrived at the hospital 6cm and fully effaced.  This is something you can sometimes opt out of depending on the care provider.  The exception is when you are initially accepted through triage; they have to check you then.

post #113 of 132

I didn't realize how painful AFTER the birth would be...nurses checking your uterus, being stitched, etc...

 

I also had heard that newborns did nothing but eat but I didn't take it literally enough. I was used to seeing babies who ate every 2 hours or so and mine was not like that. If she was awake, she was nursing.

post #114 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by demeter888 View Post

 

I had a midwife in my hospital delivery and was not checked early on more than twice.  I arrived at the hospital 6cm and fully effaced.  This is something you can sometimes opt out of depending on the care provider.  The exception is when you are initially accepted through triage; they have to check you then.


I was never checked, you can always opt out.

post #115 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post


I was never checked, you can always opt out.

It depends on the hospital; the policy of mine was that you must be checked when admitted.

post #116 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ananas View Post

I didn't realize how painful AFTER the birth would be...nurses checking your uterus, being stitched, etc...

 

I also had heard that newborns did nothing but eat but I didn't take it literally enough. I was used to seeing babies who ate every 2 hours or so and mine was not like that. If she was awake, she was nursing.

 

Oh gosh yes, it was such a rude awakening the first time.  I was all, "I just pushed out a baby!  Aren't we done yet!!!"

post #117 of 132
I wish I had known that people's best advice would be the hardest to take. I think it gets repeated because everyone wishes they had done it, but it's hard, and they hope the next person can get it right-- somehow make it easier, but we too struggle the same ways.

For example, refrains like "sleep through early labor," "take care of yourself first," "sleep when the baby sleeps," and so on smile.gif

We're working on it, but it's easier to say than do...
post #118 of 132

Serafina, my SIL and I were discussing this just yesterday - I agree, it has become all too common to hear "I wasn't producing enough milk". There is very little education about how the supply/demand relationship of breastfeeding works, and even less information about the difficulties that can arise in the early days and how to handle those. 

 

New mamas-to-be spend hours and hours researching what to expect during labour, but as some previous posts have mentioned, we neglect to research what comes after and the most important - how to breastfeed. In today's life many of us live far away from our families and we don't benefit from the family community where little girls get to see older women breastfeeding. When you have never experienced this and you have no idea what to expect it can be so difficult! If more mamas believed that naturally they should be able to breastfeed maybe they would seek out support which isn't readily given? It's not always easy, and it's sometimes not fun but it does get better! 

post #119 of 132

Well this thought can't go without saying...

 

I wish we all knew how medications, used in labor and birth, influenced our milk supplies. 

post #120 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet Mahaffey View Post

Well this thought can't go without saying...

 

I wish we all knew how medications, used in labor and birth, influenced our milk supplies. 


I've never heard of this...are their studies showing this to be true?  Which medications?  I'm very anti-drug (in general), so I'm not shocked, but would love to see some studies. 

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