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The Saner TTC-Thunder Moon - Page 16

post #301 of 677

Hello! I wanted to join in. We have kind of an odd situation I guess - we were TTC and just found out DH is being laid off and we will almost certainly be moving out of state. So that complicates things. I can't help but hope, though! I felt O pain around the 12th day of my cycle (my periods are only about three days) and we DTD then and every other day for a week. I can't temp with a nursling in bed, so I just tried to go by other signs. 

 

I'm playing the "pregnancy symptoms or stress symptoms?" game right now. We also found out our 5 month old kitten has a fatal disease, we rescued a pregnant dog a while ago that had four puppies two weeks ago, one of our 30 chickens just hatched chicks, and we have foster kittens. So I feel like we have a lot going on, and a lot of little lives depending on us being able to give them a home and buy them food. (And just because I know its a sensitive and important topic - we did NOT breed the dog. She was pregnant when we adopted her. We will have her spayed ASAP :) )

 

I'd only be at about 9 DPO if it really did happen when I think, but that seems awfully early in my cycle so I'm really not sure. I can't wait to test! Literally. Because I've totally waster three dollar store tests hoping if I squinted hard enough I would see something. I definitely need some sane-ness in my life right now. I keep finding myself waking and wandering the house in the middle of the night, which I did when I was pregnant with DS (but not until late 2nd trimester) and then being like "I'm exhausted! I must be pregnant!" and having lots of vivid dreams (which is much more likely to be because we have no idea what is going to happen to us and not because of a few cells hanging out in my uterus :wink). Anyway, I need to try to relax this week until testing time. 

post #302 of 677
Awwwww MamaBlue that was just the outcome I had hope for you. Something relatively easy to fix....so glad they found the cause and now you can rest up and get back on the saddle!!!! Awesome news hon! Take care of yourself....:-)

Chuord I am feeling no sore boobs but swollen bits and grumbly tummy down low...so I am sort of confused as well. I guess part of the fun of this (not that there is much) but the possibility of something great happening!! I have to hold on to that.

Take care ladies!! Have a great night/morning depending on where you are!
post #303 of 677
Morning!

Mamablue- great news that you have got some answers. Do you know what the treatment will be? I'm so relieve that you came through it ok and hope the burrito hit the mark!!

Chuord and wengrin- good symptoms. :-)

Mareseatoats- welcome! Things sound busy where you are. Nice to have you along with us :-)

Today my temp dipped even further below the cover line. I was worried as I have never had that on my chart before. But then I've never had a pregnant chart so I shouldn't be looking for a chart that's the same!!! I will just keep my eye on it. Testing in a week ;-)
post #304 of 677
Mareseatoats - welcome! It does sound like you have a lot going on! Just try and absorb done zen - we do tend to symptom spot - but we have found that doing it with all the emotional hype makes it more of a game... But if line us you sometimes need to have an outpouring go for it! Good luck with the menagerie - and dh work.

Wengrin - hugs on the confusion, it makes me both feel for you and feel better that this crazy game is now for us both! Here's hoping!

Oxford - can you post a link to your chart? I've never had that dip and it sounds very interesting wink1.gif so hoping for you too lady - that would cheer dh up!
I'm assuming from what mama blue said that they scraped out any if the 'bits' they could find while doing it... Maybe that's why the two weeks pelvic rest? Mama blue sending you gaps of healing and hoping its not to painful.

Hoping are you still around?

Afm - sorry about the blow by blow tmi, yesterday darker spotting but still not flow or normal colour. Migraine again and tummy cramps that went down my left leg... Still a crampy tummy, normally I only get an hour to 6 hrs of bad cramping as my period starts... Which is due tomorrow (Thursday) so I'm feeling more and more like I'm out, but I'm not stressed either way at present - more interested in symptoms - which could be caused by vitex after all lol
post #305 of 677
Mareseaoats- Hi! I remember you from the nursing mamas board. So sorry to hear about DH's job situation...sounds like you have a lot going on. I hope you can find some zen and de-stress as much as possible. I think our bodies are wired to avoid pregnancy when we are under tremendous stress....sort of a primal instinct...so I will be cheering you on and hoping that in a few more days you'll be able to test and get some positive news! I know what you mean about the roaming at night. That has been me lately....odd. I remember it, so I'm not sleepwalking. Hope it is a pregnancy symptom!

Oxford- I wonder about the below the cover line dip....I will look into that in my TCOYF book. Still hoping it is implantation! Have you noticed any strange CM?? Hugs for you and hoping you and DH are doing well.

Chuord- the cramping into the legs can be a pregnancy symptom too...that's what is so darned frustrating about these symptoms. They can all be one or the other...do you normally get migraines before your period? I always get mine from the drop in estrogen so usually not until AF starts.....hoping that your spotting stops and this isn't the witch!

Thanks for the love, ladies. I would feel like a complete lunatic I think, if I didn't have others to relate to....in similar situations. I was so nauseous this morning I didn't think I could go about my day. It was AWFUL!! Just like being pregnant....except not! (Maybe)
post #306 of 677
Oxford - Your wacky temps really have my curiosity going. It'd be awesome if tomorrow that temp shot up. I'm cheering for you!

Chourd - Bummer about your spotting. I'm an early spotter, too. My LP's are usually 14 days, but I spot before that. I don't know yet if the hysteroscopy fixed it. My doc seems to think it will make a difference. I know there are several reasons for early spotting, but have you had an ultrasound?

Wengrin - Sorry about the funky tummy. What DPO are you? I hope you'll have some exciting news to share very soon!

Mareseaoats - Hello! It sounds like you have a lot on your plate! I hope your DH finds new employment and that you find yourselves in a less stressful situation very soon.

AFM - I'm back to my regular routine. I just have mild soreness/cramping and very light spotting. My doc called today to ask how I was feeling. She said that we should have the biopsy results back from pathology early next week. We'll know then if we are all clear to proceed with treatment next cycle.
post #307 of 677
Morning!

I can't believe it's only Wednesday, it feels like it should be Friday! What a long week.

Mamablue- good to hear that you are recovering. Take it easy and rest! It would be great to be back on the rollerciaster next month. I really hope the procedure has cleared things out and it's coming up to your month. You deserve the good news :-)

Chuord- your symptoms sound awful. I really hope you are pregnant to justify all this pain. Any more news today?

Wengrin- you too! Nausea is never fun, although more bearable if there's a little one involved!! Any more news on cute DS?

Primal- how are you doing?

AFM, 7dpo here. My temp had gone back up. If gets crossed it keeps climbing. This chart is really not like my others, I hope it's a god sign and not the start of problems. Here's my charts
http://fertilityfriend.com/home/41a892

Ignore last month, O was delayed by all the stress about my step daughter. Every other month is pretty standard. Any advice appreciated.

Have a good day.
post #308 of 677

Hi, everyone!

 

Oxford -- I've been reading along with your stepkid troubles. I feel your pain, but from the bio-parent side. Blending families makes a special kind of crazy, and it's so hard to know when to back your kid and when to call them on their bad behavior. It really gives you a blind spot. I hope things are getting better for you.

Chuord -- Still in is still in! Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

 

Mamablue -- I'm so glad they found something fixable on your hysto! I'll be watching with interest as you go through your next few cycles.

Mare -- Welcome! I hope your stay is short and sane. :-)

 

Wengrin -- Looks like some promising symptoms. I hope you get your positive!

Afm, I have some good and bad to report. The good is that I DO think that the vitex took the edge off my usually miserable PMS, which is a big deal. My husband and I usually have big, miserable fights around that time every month, and I'm just so unhappy with anxiety and depression. Any relief is so, so welcome. I had some touchiness, but nothing I couldn't manage with a little extra mindfulness.

The bad news is that, after a few days of what felt like strong symptoms to me, I broke down and tested this morning. BFN, and then AF showed up (a day early). Is that a vitex thing? I missed my dose for a couple of days, might that do it? Anyway, I'm on CD1 now, here we go again, etc., etc.

How's everyone else doing?

post #309 of 677
Oxford - Exciting that your chart is different! I call it a good sign. How are you feeling? And I also am familiar with StepChild issues. It is VERY difficult. Lots of hugs to you.

Chuord - How are you feeling today? I get migraines too. Mine seen to be more connected to the weather. Any sign of AF?

Wengrin - Sorry about feeling poorly, but maybe it's a good sign! How many DPO are you? Sorry, on my phone or I would go back and check smile.gif Both my kids were conceived during very stressful times in my life, so I don't know that it will be much of a factor for me. And honestly I'm heartbroken over my little cat, but I have a lot of faith in DH being able to find a job and we have a safety net - we can live with my mom and friends that will take our chickens.

Mamablue - I'm so glad you're feeling well and getting some answers! How are you feeling emotionally? I just went through some cervix issues that are thankfully all cleared up now. It was scary, though, to wait and see how things went. I'll be thinking of you smile.gif

Primaljoy - Glad your PMS symptoms have let up! I've always been pretty lucky in that sense but the last year or so I've had a mixed bag of pms symptoms. Never know what I'll get except extreme "openness" to emotions. Weeping at everything! It is exhausting. Have you heard of something called meca or maca or something like that? I have heard it also really helps with PMS symptoms. It's so hard fighting with DP. When we lived near my DHs son he would leave to spend every other weekend with him and we always fought a lot the week leading up to him being gone. It was awful. Here's hoping this is your cycle!

AFM - I decided to test Saturday morning which will be five days before AF is due, and if it is negative to wait until the tenth, which is when AF is due. So having that in my mind is helpful. DH is applying for jobs out of state, so we probably have a big move ahead of us but perhaps not. There's a chance he could be kept on at his current studio if they are given a project. We've only lived here a year, so I wouldn't be heartbroken to leave. Especially if we moved somewhere with more seasons than 9 months sun, 3 months less sun.

I've been really exhausted and having lots of stomach cramps - I'm honestly not sure if they're gas or uterine. I'm not really sure when my symptoms started with my other pregnancies because I wasn't trying either time. I do feel like I have more milk than usual, am bloated, have had some nasty acid reflux,and the fatigue surprises me, but I'm trying not to count on it, you know? Oh! I've also had some cravings: oranges, salad and apples. That's unusual for me but I thought it could be because I know I *might* be pregnant. I would be, what now? 11dpo I think.
post #310 of 677
I thought it would be fun to tell stories of when we first knew we were pregnant if we have older kids! With my daughter, I was a nanny and I was walking down the family's stairs and my breasts just ached so badly. It was like a light went off! I just knew. My breasts never hurt with PMS.

With my son I was working at a bookstore. There was a bakery across the street and once a week they served the most delicious cheddar broccoli chowder. I got it every week. One week I bought it and it tasted HORRIBLE. I couldn't eat it. I would of sworn they put fish in it. As I was dumping it in the trash I realized my period was late! Then I knew.
post #311 of 677
Primal- bad news that the witch has landed with you :-( great news on the PMS. It is so overwhelming when your hormones take over and those fights are very distressing. My PMS seems to vary month to month, it must be terrible to have it consistently. Vitex seems to be really doing the trick for you.

Does anyone know how vitex works? I have not tried it. About the only thing I haven't tried!! Lol.

Mares- you sound to be staying very positive and centred through such a tough time, good for you! I love your stories about pregnancy symptoms. I am TTC number 1 so I can't add anything. I'm interested to hear other peoples stories though.

8dpo here and all calm. Temp has stabilised again, bit super high but ok. Who is out next possibility? Chuord? When are you testing?

Wengrin, how are you doing? Still nauseous? You must be getting to testing soon too. I have my fingers crossed that all this nausea is worthwhile :-)

Mamablue- are you still taking it easy? I hope your lovely DH is continuing to take care of you.

The good news is that I can almost see the weekend from here!!
post #312 of 677
Weird - I seemed to miss a heap of posts, then they all arrived!

Primal the vitex sure sounds like its working! Re the day earlier, I guess if its meant to balance the hormones out anything is possible! Hugs on AF - but honestly with your huge win I think you and dh should be partying!

Oxford - thanks for sharing the chart! It is definitely a different pattern... Looks promising maybe? Lol like you I'm guessing different to normal is a good thing!
Mare - I don't have any other kids so no stories...
Mama blue - I have wondered about an ultra sound - I think my doc said to keep going a little longer before tests etc.
Afm - last long one for a while... Had a kinergetics treatment yesterday, I was exhausted, in pain and nauseous - my hormones were out... Searching through all the variations and nothing came up so I suggested hormones in meat - and yep that was my problem... So all organic for me now! I can't believe I've been suffering from that... Anyway am in the process of releasing.
Also I'm out this month too... But I'm coping ok too - vitex is definitely the mellow hormone drug lol
post #313 of 677
Mareseatoats- so sorry about kitty...and glad you have the safety net. Hope you get a positive here soon! Your symptoms sound great!

Primal- I am sorry the witch arrived....but glad the Vitex is helping. I have heard that it helps boost your progesterone...for anyone interested i have a monograph that one of the moms from one of the other boards posted...i will try to dig it out.

Also I hear you on the blended family crazy. We have it going on here. I have both step children and a bio daughter who goes to her dads and I deal with a little crazy from ex husbands gf. They have been living together since we separated....so like 5-6 years. She is in many ways good to my DD, but they also drag her around from beach bar to pub (boating) on the weekends that she is with them. I really disagree..but there isn't much I can do it say. Plus she tells DD that she is her step mom.....and at a gymnastics class the other day, the gf came with ex hubby and I overheard her calling my DD her daughter!! It is hard.....either way it definitely is a crazy mess. I hate it for the kids...I wish ex hubby and I could have stayed together...but he just wasn't ready to grow up. (Still isn't...at 44)

Mamablue- glad you are back to your routine!! I hope you get some good news back from the dr once they get pathology reports. Are they worried that some of the tissues were precancerous or anything? I always get nervous when I hear pathology...my mom has battled breast cancer, brain cancer for almost 5 years. Hope you have a good report.

Oxford- I looked at your chart and it looks possible that you dipped around implantation....I just am not sure about it going below your coverline. It almost appears (to me) like you might be low on progesterone. The progesterone is what keeps the temps rising gradually. Have you heard of the book "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" by Toni Weschler? She shows examples of different types of charts and gives advice and troubleshooting problems based on your charts.

Of course I am not a doctor....I suffered low progesterone with my last m/c so that's why I take the Prometrium. Vitex also helps....you can order Vitex (Chasteberry) online. Many women swear by it. It helps regulate your cycle and your hormones. Of course- everyone has their own "normal" so your chart pattern may be completely normal.

Hugs to you Chuord- I hope your treatment helped and glad you got some hope by knowing that organic meats should help balance hormones. I wonder the same thing....I am disgusted with the way meats are produced in the US...but with our family's size and hungry boys it is so hard to buy organic. I try to avoid meat whenever possible. I get protein from other sources....but I can totally see why hormones and junk in meat would throw our hormones off. Good luck to you...get some good rest while you release and recover.

AFM- I am 7dpo. I forgot to take Prometrium last night (oops) so going to take half the dose this AM. I hope it doesn't mess me up or make me too loopy. I am still having all the symptoms but it could be the progesterone playing tricks on me. One thing I have noticed at night while lying in bed, I keep feeling twinges and tickly bubbles way down low by my pubic bone/ uterus. Hope it is a little one trying to attach!

My story about "when I knew"- with DD I had no clue I was pregnant. We went on vacation to celebrate anniversary and I knew we had one day where we could have conceived, so I was wondering.....but then the first day of vacation I got my period. It was a shorter one...only 3 days. But still I just figured it didn't happen. Then a whole 3 weeks after that (7 weeks pregnant) I kept feeling really tired and run down, thought I had a cold or something. The following week I had a couple of nauseous days at work and left to go home sick that Friday, stopped and picked up a test and sure enough it was positive.

So I was terrified that I had harmed my baby during those first 8 weeks because I was drinking, partying it up for anniversary, had some dental work done and x rays....I worried my entire pregnancy but she is a healthy little girl. I actually continued to have bleeding during other times in that pregnancy...and apparently it is fairly common. Bright red blood too....not spotting. Very scary but turned out fine.

With DS- I knew after being a couple days late and my boobs were soooo swollen and heavy. I just knew. Took a test and sure enough.

So I would say for sure that heavy, really swollen boobies are the best indicator....for me anyway.

Hope everyone has a great day/night depending on where you are! :-)
post #314 of 677
Morning! Happy Friday to you.

Chuord- sorry to hear AF found you. Reset for a new month? The meat thing sounds like it has hit you pretty hard. Can you get some rest time in? A little holiday maybe?

Wengrin- step families are crazy. You must have quite a logistics coordination with your children away or visiting at different times. My step daughter met for coffee with DH the other night so I'm pleased that they have reestablished contact. She also managed to ask for money, so I think things are getting back to normal! If they can meet regularly it's going to bring my DH back from despair.

Thanks for your advice about my chart. It could be low progesterone and it's certainly different to normal. Ignoring last month, which was messed up by stress, I usually have very high temps that have gone triphasic, so I think my body can do it. Maybe it's still recovering from last month.

I have my dye test booked in for the end of October so we won't be trying next month to ensure that I'm not pregnant. It world be great if I am pregnant this month and don't need the tests :-)

Any exciting weekend plans?
Xx
post #315 of 677

HI everyone! I am on my TWW, so I thought I would join this thread for some sanity.

 

My story for when I knew I was pregnant with DS came 6 years ago when I was bartending a private party. The host bought the staff several shots of whiskey (which I usually had a high tolerance for, being a bartender and all), but I was such a light weight that night. One shot put me three sheets to the wind. I started questioning the cause. When it crossed my mind that I might be pregnant I suddenly felt a rock of nerves in my stomach--I knew it was true. It was like I was hit by a brick wall of reality. At the time, I was terrified, but of course, having my son is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Now if DH and I could just make a little sibling for him!

 

Weekend plans: Family gathering tonight with DH and my side of the family. Meeting brother's girlfriend/fiance (?) and her parents for the first time. Should be a nice shift of focus off my world of TTC for a night :)

 

Edited: typo

post #316 of 677

Wengrin - Sore breasts are definitely the number one sign for me, too. I don't have them right now (I'm expecting AF around the 10th) but I think they came a little later for me. I've been feeling the little pops and bubbles, too! I was beginning to think I was crazy - going to have a hysterical pregnancy or something. Glad you mentioned them. I don't usually drink, but only about a week and a half before we found out we were expecting DS we went to DHs Christmas work party and I had a lot to drink. I was worried about the same thing. I also had been using a heating blanket! I think our bodies are designed to keep the bean really safe at the beginning. (Not that we shouldn't be careful, but just that we should try not to worry over things we did before we knew)

 

Oxford - Hoping for a BFP for you this month, too! What is the dye test? When are you testing?

 

Welcome Water Mama! That's so interesting, I haven't heard of pregnancy changing your tolerance for alcohol, but it kind of makes sense. Hope your stay here is short :) I have to say, we love the (almost) five year age difference between our kiddos. 

 

AFM - I wanted to test so badly this morning! I actually ran to the bathroom and peed so the temptation would be removed. I'm thinking it didn't happen this month. It's hard, because I started thinking maybe it did and kind of reaching out with my mind and trying to "feel" the baby. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but my conciseness was starting to shift from "me" to "me and little one". With both my other kids I felt like I knew their genders (and was right) by 11 or 12 weeks in my pregnancy and I felt like I got a sense of their personalities when they were still inside me. Maybe I'm wrong - I took a cheap test last night and it was negative, it could just be that getting to me. It would have been early to get a BFP. 

 

Oh, on an off note have you all seen there is a new EPT that estimates how far along you are? I don't think any of us would need that, but pretty cool, if it works.

 

Mamas, I'm having a hard time. I hate to dump it all on you, but I really appreciate having an ear to bend. As far as my cat goes, he seems so healthy and happy. I talked to one nurse at the vet, and a few other people I know through the kitten fostering and none of them think he has or had FIP. They say they've never heard of a cat that bounced back to being completely healthy. So I was just elated for a day, but then next day the vet calls back and said it is typical that they'll seem fine and then get worse again and that she still firmly believed he had FIP and would decline quickly. It's so hard to get my hopes up just to have them dashed back down. I don't know who to believe or what to think. Largely connected to that, I think, or possibly a sign AF is on her way, I've been really grumpy the last two days. I don't know if grumpy is the right word for it really, but I feel alone (typical of grief) and defeated and I just want to be alone. But I can't be, because of the kids. We don't have anyone in the state that could watch them for us and DH is working loooooong hours trying to apply for jobs and get his reel ready and everything. I'm being mindful and doing pretty well treating the kids in a way I feel good about, but at the same time I just want to scream "LEAVE ME ALONE". On the flip side we're having a lot of sweet moments together, too, and they are absolutely the joy of my life, and their companionship, silly conversations and readily offered hugs are keeping me going.

 

DS is going through a stage right now where he is extremely rough, and I'm having a really hard time with it. I need some advice, if anyone has any. He's hitting and kicking when he's frustrated, throwing toys, grabbing the animals and hurting them, and sometimes pulls his sister's hair. None of this is done in a rage, in fact a lot of it seems like he's in a great mood and just doesn't understand what he's doing. In bed when I have to stop nursing him he will hit and kick me a lot, and he gets mad at Clementine and will hurt her, but he isn't an angry kid, you know? He's a big boy, and he's very physical. I have no idea what to do. "That hurts. Use gentle touches" and removing him from the situation if he continues is what we do now. I don't feel like he gets it.

 

DH had a phone pre-interview with the studio in Boston this morning. Very exciting, it's a prestigious studio and he wasn't sure he'd hear back. I guess they'll have a skype interview next week and the recruiter or whomever it was said to prepared for lots and lots of questions. DH likes things like that in regards to his work, so he'll do well I'm sure. 

post #317 of 677
Hi water! Glad you could join us!

Mare - sorry you are having an emotional ride, the kitten thing would kill me...
Edited by chuord - 10/4/13 at 2:16pm
post #318 of 677

Mare--My son went through a "violent/aggressive" phase as well. Because it was so impulsive, rationalizing with him was really hard  (he was the worst around age 3). Time-outs wouldn't even work so I had to buckle him in a car seat stationed in the corner of the living room to get him to stay put without kicking/hurting me! He started to understand that it is not okay to hurt people (whether he was trying to or not). I would tell him that he is very strong--stronger than he thinks. Once he would calm down we would talk about why he did what he did and what different ways he could express himself in the future that were okay. I would read him kid books about anger, Hands are not for hitting".  Eventually, he began channeling his energy into sports. Tennis has proved very good for his short attention span and high energy. He is still a very passionate and emotional guy. He is very affectionate, so at the younger age I know he was just exploring his physicality/strength/sense of self. Just have to have patience because it does pass! I will admit that there were several times I would cry to myself from the stress of it though :( 

post #319 of 677
Morning!

Mare- you have got such a lot on your plate right now. Your situation with DS sounds very stressful. Water's advice sounds very good. My niece had issues about expressing herself, any small disappointment or frustration and the emotion would overwhelm her. It's really distressing for them and you. Big hugs. A living supportive parent will make all the difference. Do you think he senses the uncertainty with DH's job. Kids can be so perceptive. I hope you get some alone time, and a bit of space to do something for you :-)

Water, welcome! So nice to have you along with us. Whereabouts in the world are you? We have a few Americans, a couple of Aussies and I'm a Brit.
I like your story of feeling drunk on one whiskey, I have heard that symptom before but one drink is very potent!

You asked about a dye test. I've been TTC for a year now and we are starting on fertility tests. DH passed his (he was relieved and delighted!!) my hormone tests were all good. The next is to check my tubes are open. They push dye up through the uterus into the tubes, apply some pressure and the dye should pop out the ends of the tubes if they are open. They follow it on an ultrasound. It will be good to know if there's a problem. The added advantage is it gives a jet wash!! So my tubes get a little clean out just from the dye and that increases chance of conception. It's not for a few weeks yet and it can be painful so I'm not totally looking forward to it.

10 dpo here. My temp has stuck at the higher level so far, which is good. I'm not testing until AF is due as I hate seeing the lonely line. I don't know how early testers cope with the disappointment. I'm going to stay with blind hope until the witch drops by.

A consolation prize if I'm not pregnant this month is bring able to drink on holiday. The week after next we are going over to France for a few days, to the champagne region. It would be wonderful to be pregnant already but I would miss tastings at the champagne houses!!! It will be a nice to spend done time with DH away from my SD.

Have a great Saturday everyone!
post #320 of 677
Oxford - yay on the temp staying up! My temp is still all over... It dropped below cover line the day/ day before AF... And had bounced back up the two days since... Also as well as a perpetual migraine for 5 days now (sigh) I've had medium strength cramps for 5 days or more... Normally I get the cramps for half a day tops... So no idea what my body is doing lol... Normally once AF starts everything else settles... Here's hoping its just a spring clean. It gets confusing as I know I'm a spotter when pg, although I'm sure I'm not this time
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