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post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Taxi, what if my uncle had died from mumps? Is it preferable do you think to have a vaccine induced brain damaged child, or a dead child?

Katie, that's a really good question, and a difficult one to answer.

I think it depends on the degree of damage, and on the perspective of the family involved.

Do you know any families of severely brain-injured vaccine victims? The ones who need round-the-clock care, are unable to communicate, whose injuries bankrupt their families and tear marriages apart?

I know several families, and the parents struggle with that very question. So do the siblings of the affected child. More than one of those parents have wondered aloud whether mourning a death is easier in the long run than mourning a severe profound brain injury.

I think the grass looks greener from wherever you're not. If you've lost a loved one, you'd give anything to have them back in any way, shape, or form, even if its basically just a breathing body with little brain function, just because you'd still have hope.

But for those who've lived with little more than a breathing body for years, while losing all semblance of a normal life themselves--they've lost hope. And the financial, physical, and emotional sacrifices go on long past the loss of hope.

It's tragic either way.
post #42 of 68
Thread Starter 
I am on my phone so the best I can do is post this link http://www.expert-reviews.com/doi/abs/10.1586/eci.13.2

There is actually a syndrome of vaccine-injury caused by adjuvants called ASIA. 




"The activation of the immune system by adjuvants, a desirable effect, could trigger manifestations of autoimmunity or autoimmune disease. Recently, a new syndrome was introduced, autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA), that includes postvaccination phenomena, macrophagic myofasciitis, Gulf War syndrome and siliconosis. This syndrome is characterized by nonspecific and specific manifestations of autoimmune disease." 
post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

That's great for you. Not everyone was so lucky.

I could say the same to you, about vaccine reaction.
post #44 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Katie, that's a really good question, and a difficult one to answer.

I think it depends on the degree of damage, and on the perspective of the family involved.

Do you know any families of severely brain-injured vaccine victims? The ones who need round-the-clock care, are unable to communicate, whose injuries bankrupt their families and tear marriages apart?

I know several families, and the parents struggle with that very question. So do the siblings of the affected child. More than one of those parents have wondered aloud whether mourning a death is easier in the long run than mourning a severe profound brain injury.

I think the grass looks greener from wherever you're not. If you've lost a loved one, you'd give anything to have them back in any way, shape, or form, even if its basically just a breathing body with little brain function, just because you'd still have hope.

But for those who've lived with little more than a breathing body for years, while losing all semblance of a normal life themselves--they've lost hope. And the financial, physical, and emotional sacrifices go on long past the loss of hope.

It's tragic either way.

No. I do not know a single family like that, despite working in a field that brings me in constant contact with parents of small children. I have never met one in my private life either, despite having a huge extended family and having lived on another continent and all over the United States. I was in the peace corps and served with hundreds of people who received many vaccines, some with a higher known rate of severe reactions, like yellow fever and rabies, and many of whom had pre existing asthma. through the grapevine of PC i know thousands of people who got the same treatment. In fact, take away even severe non-functioning brain injuries- the only autistic kids I have ever met have not been vaccinated at all!

How many families do you actually know that have kids all but hooked up to a vent with a doctor agreeing it was caused by a vaccine? Say, severe non communicative, incontinent, etc autism?
post #45 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

No. I do not know a single family like that, despite working in a field that brings me in constant contact with parents of small children. I have never met one in my private life either, despite having a huge extended family and having lived on another continent and all over the United States. I was in the peace corps and served with hundreds of people who received many vaccines, some with a higher known rate of severe reactions, like yellow fever and rabies, and many of whom had pre existing asthma. through the grapevine of PC i know thousands of people who got the same treatment. In fact, take away even severe non-functioning brain injuries- the only autistic kids I have ever met have not been vaccinated at all!

How many families do you actually know that have kids all but hooked up to a vent with a doctor agreeing it was caused by a vaccine? Say, severe non communicative, incontinent, etc autism?

I know 2 whose children have severe vaccine-induced brain damage. They are profoundly physically handicapped as well. Both diagnoses include autism. These were families who won their cases in vaccine court, but the award was officially for "brain damage." These are families I know through a friend who is active in support groups with them. I brought them up because of their perspective on the theoretical question you asked. I would expect that very few people know such families in person.

I know (personally know, and see often) 5 families with profoundly autistic, non-verbal (one with limited verbal ability) children. These children, all in their teens, can never be left alone; 3 or sure are still in diapers, one for sure is not, and I don't know about the 5th.
1) next-door-neighbor's grandson
2) SIL's BFF's son
3) BIL's business partner's son
4) DS's friend's older brother
5) colleague's son, who is also profoundly autistic but does have very limited verbal ability

Note that none of these are families that I know through any kind of autism or non-vax community. These are families I know through normal, everyday activities in our community. And none of those children were/are in public school.

I'm really surprised you haven't personally met families with such children. I'm not in an area
known as an autism pocket (like Brick Township, NJ), but who knows?
post #46 of 68
You know I had no idea reactions could ever be worse than a sore arm or a fever until I had one. Certified by a doctor. A regular doctor. Then I started digging. My mom nearly died from her smallpox vaccine. I had high fevers following dtp. We're taking 40 (Celsius) and it did concern the ped quite a bit. At 6 years they did my 4th when I finally only had a mild fever. My uncle seized, which was by a doctor attributed to the vaccine (dtp). Things happen. Communism sucked but at least the doctors admitted vaccine reactions and didn't vaccinate those family members any further with the vaccines they reacted to. They also never did more than one at a time with our family. If our story happened today, we would be ignored. Doctors would tell us it's not vaccine related. Anecdata, I know.
post #47 of 68
In order for serious reactions to be significantly more common than is reported requires that hundreds of thousands of medical professionals are either stupid or immoral.

Which do you suggest it is?

Yet again I say no one denies serious reactions happen - rarely. They are indeed a tragedy to those they occur to. However if vaccination ceased many more people would be seriously injured. That would also be a tragedy.

And any individual is very very unlikely to have a serious reaction according to the statistics.
post #48 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

In order for serious reactions to be significantly more common than is reported requires that hundreds of thousands of medical professionals are either stupid or immoral.

Which do you suggest it is?

Yet again I say no one denies serious reactions happen - rarely. They are indeed a tragedy to those they occur to. However if vaccination ceased many more people would be seriously injured. That would also be a tragedy.

And any individual is very very unlikely to have a serious reaction according to the statistics.

 

No it doesn't. It just means they wouldn't know an adverse event if it hit them in the face. 

post #49 of 68
So that looks like one vote for the entire medical profession involved in vaccination being stupid. Anyone like to take the side of deliberate intent to harm by hiding mass numbers of serious side effects?
post #50 of 68
Stupid it is, then.
post #51 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Stupid it is, then.

Not stupid, just ignorant. They have not been taught to acknowledge vaccine reactions, unless it is an in your face anaphylactic reaction. 

post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

So that looks like one vote for the entire medical profession involved in vaccination being stupid. Anyone like to take the side of deliberate intent to harm by hiding mass numbers of serious side effects?

Really, prosciencemum, is this truly necessary?

We've told you.  SO.  MANY.  TIMES.  that we don't think that the entire medical profession is stupid, and that we don't think that there is a mass conspiracy.  So please, PLEASE stop trying to paint us as doctor-haters and conspiracy theorists.  We're not.

 

We've told you that we believe that most first-line medical professionals--the primary care doctors, nurses, nurse-practitioners, and physician assistants-- have simply not been properly trained to recognize vaccine reactions other than fever, swelling, redness, and irritability.

 

We've reminded you that, in fairly recent history, doctors  weren't trained to wash their hands before delivering babies, either.  In more recent history, they weren't trained to recognize serious adverse reactions to some medications, leaving Vioxx and Lipitor patients (and many others) with doctors who told them that their reactions couldn't be from the medications because the doctors had not been told that such reactions were possible.


We've given you both personal  and documented testimony (MDC member Michael Belkin's testimony before Congress) of how a baby with such reactions is treated, and linked you to websites where thousands of other parents have reported similar experiences.  Some of us have even admitted that we would never have believed such a thing could be possible until our own babies (WHOM WE VACCINATED) had serious reactions.

 

And we've linked you with mainstream, peer-reviewed studies that support the link between vaccines and the kinds of reactions we describe, and call for further research--which has not happened.

Our point is that, in spite of efforts towards vaccine safety, there is a real and serious problem of severe reactions being missed, due to an incorrect belief that reactions are limited to immediate, allergic reactions. The problem extends to include medical professionals treating parents who report such serious reactions as ignorant, hysterical fools.  

 

It only escalates these problems when bloggers pick up the arrogant, condescending attitude, and vilify such parents and those who believe them, calling for them to be refused basic legal rights, and calling them "mass murderers" and worse, blaming them for any and all disease complications, and, quite consciously, pitting parent against parent.

 

And you seem to be treating us with that same attitude, even though you've never been in our shoes, and as far as I can tell, you've never KNOWN anyone who has been in our shoes.  


Edited by Taximom5 - 7/31/13 at 3:33am
post #53 of 68
So that seems to be three votes for stupid, ignorant, untrained, and unable to notice an obvious truth that some people with little medical training say is there.
post #54 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

So that seems to be three votes for stupid, ignorant, untrained, and unable to notice an obvious truth that some people with little medical training say is there.

 

Is this some variant of push-polling going on here?

post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin View Post

Is this some variant of push-polling going on here?

I think it's an example of someone sticking her fingers in her ears and shouting, "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"
post #56 of 68

Let's not get personal. I accept we may have to agree to disagree here.

 

I am listening to you. I'm just saying it cannot be as common as you think unless the medical profession (thousands of people) are collectively stupid or intending to harm children.

 

People posting here who personally know a handful of people they believe are vaccine injured (and I'm not saying it that was because I disbelieve you, but because I have no evidence either way - this is just an internet forum after all) do not change the statistics which show vaccine injuries happen but are very rare. 

post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Let's not get personal.

You made it very personal. You deliberately misrepresented our words in an extremely condescending and disrespectful manner.

I accept we may have to agree to disagree here.

Not according to your next paragraph, you don't. Perhaps you need to look up the meaning of the words you use?

I am listening to you. I'm just saying it cannot be as common as you think unless the medical profession (thousands of people) are collectively stupid or intending to harm children.

Please note that YOU are saying this, not us. Not me, not Mirzam, YOU. And you continue to completely ignore our responses to your statement. You may be listening (though I doubt it), but you clearly don't hear what we're saying. You apparently want to believe that we're all paranoid, tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorists, and every response from you is based on that.

People posting here who personally know a handful of people they believe are vaccine injured (and I'm not saying it that was because I disbelieve you, but because I have no evidence either way - this is just an internet forum after all) do not change the statistics which show vaccine injuries happen but are very rare. 

You have made it quite clear, many times, that you don't believe that my children were vaccine injured, and you've stated that even people whose cases were conceded, admitted, and compensated by the government were not necessarily vaccine-injured. You've also ignored the evidence presented that the statistics you choose to rely on are based on seriously flawed data.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. But, as you say, this is an Internet forum, after all. You are totally allowed to shut your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears if that's what you want to do.

Edited by Taximom5 - 7/31/13 at 6:27am
post #58 of 68

I think maybe you don't understand what is the difference between objecting to what someone is saying, and objecting to that person. You seem to often be accusing me personally of not listening to you and basically being a horrible uncaring person.

 

I'm saying I listen to you but disagree with what you're saying about the frequency of serious reactions. I have said nothing about what I think about your claims that your children have had reactions except that if it's true (which it may very well be, I'm not involved in their medical care so I choose not to comment either way) it doesn't change the statistics which show that such serious reactions are rare.

 

I'm of course sorry for anyone who suffers from a reaction. Of course I am. I'm sorry for anyone who is in poor health no matter the reason for that poor health. 

post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

I am listening to you. I'm just saying it cannot be as common as you think unless the medical profession (thousands of people) are collectively stupid or intending to harm children.

 

 

We might just be talking apples and oranges.

 

If you think of severe reactions only to mean very clear-cut provable anaphylaxis or severe encephalitis…..then yeah, the whole ignorant versus immoral thing holds up.  Doctors missing or dismissing anaphylaxis would be ignorant or immoral.

 

What many people speak of when they refer to severe vaccine reactions might not be so clear cut.

 

It might include things that are not so easily provable, and are easier to dismiss.

 

Oftentimes it comes down to a parent saying "my child was thriving until the day they had their vaccine, and then they were no longer thriving." They report a series of health issues or incidents, but often you cannot pin it 100% to vaccines.  I mean, they could have had a high fever and seizure for  another reason, right?  Kids do spike fevers…... Many of these parents (I can think of 3 on MDC alone)  believed that perhaps it was co-incidence, got a further vaccine, and the child further regressed in terms of health..

 

I was thinking about this thread last night, and wondering if doctors dismissed what patients consider drug reactions in other areas. Not surprisingly, they might.   I found this article on google, and thought it was quite interesting.:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/10/growing-menace-adverse-drug-reactions

A snippet I am sharing as it sounds exactlyy like what parents report happens when they speak out about what they perceive to be a vaccine reaction.

 

"When I checked myself into the emergency room at my local hospital suffering from a panic attack, I did not know that this was a potential side-effect of the powerful new antibiotic which I had just taken. The doctor had not mentioned it. Later on, when I told him what had happened, he expressed skepticism, as did the emergency room physician, who dismissed the terrifying episode as being "a case of the nerves".

 

So….do I think doctors are ignorant?  No, but I think they are human. I do wonder if there might be a problem of systemically dismissing patient reports of reactions. I understand why it happens - they are trained to look for all possibilities, not jump to conclusions, need proof, which are all good things…. but it can also cause someone to dismiss patient reports.  

 

A doctors criteria for saying this caused this might be quite a bit higher than patients when it comes to health care.  I don't need incontrovertible proof of something to proceed with caution, particularly when there is a viable alternative.

 

I don't hold doctors to super-human standards and I accept all professions have some limitations and things they need to work on and this may be one of theirs.   Shrug.  I think doctors are human and largely trained to only accept things with 100% proof - which might be good for medicine over-all, but is not necessarily right for the person in front of you.  


Edited by kathymuggle - 7/31/13 at 6:52am
post #60 of 68

Kathymuggle - thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do see where you're coming from. I still think it's a stretch to think the medical profession as a whole would miss systematic links between certain conditions and vaccines. These people administer many many vaccines, and if significant numbers of the children were returning soon after with symptoms I believe that a large number of Doctors etc. would notice. Maybe not all, but large numbers (and not just the odd one before someone throws Wakefield at me - who by the way was struck of the medical register, which I cannot believe is done to "protect big Pharma"). 

 

I don't think the parents who believe their child is vaccine injured are making it up. I'm sure there are many who seriously believe based on their experience that their child has suffered a vaccine reaction, and based on their experience alone they would apprear to be right. But I think we need to put ourselves in the shoes of a Doctor who sees many children. They may see some suffer these symptoms with no link to vaccines, and some who suffer them close in time to a reaction. The parents of child (1) would not link it to vaccines and the parent of child (2) might be 100% convinced it's to do with vaccines. Parents of child (2) would be basing that on their experience, and it would genuinely look like a reaction. I completely accept that. But the Doctor who has seen child (1) and child (2) would know it's more likely to be a coincidence. See where I'm coming from? 

 

Anyway time will tell. If reactions are as common as some believe then they will be noticed and action will happen. If they are not, then people will continue to claim they're being missed or covered up. It's been happening since the very beginning of the vaccination program (more than 100 years). 

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