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Circumcision - Page 2

post #21 of 65
It is actually surgery no matter who it is done to. It is really essential that it be understood as such. I am not trying to be one sided really, but we have to agree that it is surgical.
post #22 of 65

I have never talked to a mom in Aus who has circ'd until now... all the other aussie moms I have ever talked to are were horrified that this still goes on in the US. As are most people around the world.

post #23 of 65

Since I just went through this... I'm in the south and when I said I didn't want to circumcise they said ok.  And when asked if there was a medical need for it to be done the Dr said absolutely not.  The rates of babies being circumcised is dropping.  And some insurances are dropping the coverage for what is now considered not medically necessary.

 

 

Also... ya'll must be new here to think this conversation would go well.  I mean if you want to circumcise your sons go for it but the MDC community doesn't support it.  So... there is no need to try and convince anyone that it's medically necessary

post #24 of 65
What the OP should take from this really is: this debate will never die & we all have to live with our choice.

The details medically of the procedure can accurately be gleaned from medical textbooks (like how to) & surgical videos.

The real question is, when this topic comes up, as it will, forever, which side do you want to be on? I like defiant & proud & representing less invasive care & bodily integrity.

Whenever I have made health decisions I regret, it is because I thought 'no one will know', but in fact, you will know. And will probably participate in these conversations going forward.

For myself, I also don't want to be anywhere near the idea of sexual repression. I want to be extra careful not to get involved with that cause (which has also always existed on Earth). And I don't want to be anywhere near the 'surgery for money, not health' trend. I am not saying Circ is 100% this but it could be seen that way.

Basically looking @ the underlying philosophical issues is crucial.

And do some research on Intact Foreskin's benefits to WOMEN! Most US women have to use Premarin or Estradiol in middle age to deal with friction from the lack of a 'rolling/gliding' mechanism. Many of us find that when we leave our sons intact, our husband's & partners become more open to Foreskin Restoration, which is not exactly the same but can get back a little of the Rolling/Gliding action.
post #25 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoping6384 View Post

Am I missing something. No one has a problem with you choosing not to circumsise, I happened to make a different choice based on my life experiences and the information I had.
MDC doesn't support it? Or you don't support it for your own personal and probably valid reasons but don't generalise the MDC community as a whole. We do all have differing opinions.

 

 

Life experience and information?  Would you mind expounding upon that?

post #26 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoping6384 View Post

I'm quite sure my son did not require general anaesthesia or any opiate pain relief because he did not have surgery.
He was not distressed and was absolutely OK.
He did not even wake up during the procedure. My goodness a plastic ring was placed around the foreskin and it came off in around a week, not exactly major surgery.
Why are you guys so opposed to differing opinions than your own. I accept there are reasons not to circumsise, why is my decision so "reprehensible"!!

 

I grew up on a farm.  When we wanted to castrate the lambs we would just place a rubber band around the base of their scrotums.  It's not like it was a surgery or anything, it's just that their testicles and scrotums fell off in about a week.  I bet it didn't even hurt.

 

Oh, btw, ^^^SARCASM.

post #27 of 65

"Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. This forum hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, and care of the intact child's penis. We do not host discussion advocating routine infant medical circumcision. It is our wish that this forum be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision."

 

This is taken from the mission statement for the forum designated for circumcision conversations on Mothering.  So, in short, "we do not host discussion advocating routine infant medical circumcision".   I'd take that to mean that the community here (regardless of the personal decision making of any participants, none of who are forced to disclose the circ' status of their children upon joining this community) is one that does not support circumcision, regardless of "how" the foreskin is removed.  

post #28 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoping6384 View Post

Pretty sure I didn't advocate it, I just said I happened to make that choice and he had no issues. DH has never had issues either. Get over it and move on. I'm sure the OP will make the right choice for her child whatever that may be

 

 

 

post #29 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoping6384 View Post

Oh and my son does still have his testicles and scrotum, just what exactly do you think circumsision is?? Don't over exaggerate something you have probably never seen you sound ridiculous smile.gif

 

I'm sorry you misunderstood me.  You were saying it's just a little plastic band, not a big deal.  I was point out that amputation is amputation, no matter what body part you're amputating, or how you're amputating it.

post #30 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post

 

Please read this:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

 

Quoting from that link:

 

"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society."

Yeah, I'm passive and compliant.  That's why I'm having an out of hospital birth.  (Is there no eye roll emoticon).  

 

Honestly, this isn't a hill I'm going to die on.  I didn't realize it had to be in order to post here.

post #31 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

 

 

 

 

I can't help think this is directed to me, the OP, and my ability (or what some seem at assume is an inability) to make the right choice. I'm sorry my OP turned into such a volatile conversation (I predicted it would be volatile, I underestimated how dirty it would get) I assumed a group of women who were planning or had a homebirth would be more compassionate. This forum requests respect for those who choose homebirth. I imagine this request is made because Mothering.com is aware of the volatility that can surround the debate over where/how to birth and how mothers who choose homebirth can be frowned upon (and worse.) What I find most sad is that this same group of women, who probably have felt some stigma because of their birthing choice, has chosen to respond in such a bullying way.

 

I will seek the information I need to make my decision and create plans (because I will attempt to plan for multiple scenarios) elsewhere. As a scientist, I will find the evidence-based information rather than listening to the emotion-laden responses I have read here. Therefore, I think I will make the right choice for me and my family. That may not be the right choice for you, but we all have our own reasons for making all the choices we do.

post #32 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by cspsyd View Post

 

I can't help think this is directed to me, the OP, and my ability (or what some seem at assume is an inability) to make the right choice. I'm sorry my OP turned into such a volatile conversation (I predicted it would be volatile, I underestimated how dirty it would get) I assumed a group of women who were planning or had a homebirth would be more compassionate. This forum requests respect for those who choose homebirth. I imagine this request is made because Mothering.com is aware of the volatility that can surround the debate over where/how to birth and how mothers who choose homebirth can be frowned upon (and worse.) What I find most sad is that this same group of women, who probably have felt some stigma because of their birthing choice, has chosen to respond in such a bullying way.

 

I will seek the information I need to make my decision and create plans (because I will attempt to plan for multiple scenarios) elsewhere. As a scientist, I will find the evidence-based information rather than listening to the emotion-laden responses I have read here. Therefore, I think I will make the right choice for me and my family. That may not be the right choice for you, but we all have our own reasons for making all the choices we do.

 

 

Nope it was in response to someone else.  The person I captioned not you. 

post #33 of 65
As a scientist I am sure you understand issues of funding bias & cultural bias in science. As a scientist I would expect a mother to seek FIRST an anatomical understanding of the foreskin & the mechanics of intact human intercourse.

If you look @ the science around HIV, ask yourself: is HIV primarily transmitted from women to men ONLY in Africa & nowhere else on Earth OR do people lie about routes of transmission when same sex love is illegal to the point of being punishable by death? Circ can *only* influence woman to man HIV transmission, even theoretically. This is the least likely route of transmission in all Western Nations & IMHO, in all nations!

I would seriously look into the funding &/or religious roots of any research you consider. Because there are huge & glaring issues there. Also IMO the Circ status of the researchers is wholly capable of bias ing research findings.
post #34 of 65

I'm not intimidating I do believe I stated this convo would not go well. 

post #35 of 65

I 100% believe circumcizing is never in the best interest of the baby(barring some disease of his foreskin at birth), it is not a decision for the "family", it is a decision for that child to make when he is grown. It is appalling that anyone would think this was a decision for anyone else to make. No one does this type of thing to their girls just in case they get breast cancer, or cervical cancer, or an std. It is a total violation and there is no way around that; amputating a body part for no beneficial reason without the person's consent is a violation.

post #36 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by cspsyd View Post
I will seek the information I need to make my decision and create plans (because I will attempt to plan for multiple scenarios) elsewhere. As a scientist, I will find the evidence-based information rather than listening to the emotion-laden responses I have read here. Therefore, I think I will make the right choice for me and my family. That may not be the right choice for you, but we all have our own reasons for making all the choices we do.

 

OP, as you've probably surmised, mothering doesn't advocate or support routine infant circumcision.  Many members support this position which is why this thread has progressed the way it has.  I have an intact son, but assumed circumcision was what was done with boys until I looked into why.  I would urge you to really look at the history of and science behind this practice (as I think you will given your interest in making an informed decision).  I am also a scientist and I found this OpEd particularly well-written, and it links to a large number of relevant studies. 

 

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/08/the-aap-report-on-circumcision-bad-science-bad-ethics-bad-medicine/

 

For what it's worth, my son has never had any health issues from his foreskin, and it's not anything I give a lot of thought to in terms of personal care (he's only 2, but I'm not worrying in advance about it either....its just a penis [and I had never seen an intact penis before he was born]).  In examining this subject two things really resonated with me: First, circumcision is a very heavy-handed (and irreversible) prophylactic method for potentially preventing very minor (and easily treated) conditions.  The risk of my daughter getting breast cancer is much higher than my son having foreskin-related issues, but I'm not going to consent to a prophylactic mastectomy because, like the foreskin, breasts have a purpose.  Second, everyone has the right to bodily integrity and, barring an acute medical emergency, it's really up to my son to decide what to do with his penis.  Although some would scoff at comparing male circumcision to female circumcision, at its basis they can both be considered a form of genital mutilation.

post #37 of 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by wishin'&hopin' View Post

"Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. This forum hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, and care of the intact child's penis. We do not host discussion advocating routine infant medical circumcision. It is our wish that this forum be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision."

 

 

I feel a couple of very important points were made in this post; points which have later been ignored and have led to hostile posts and to this becoming an unhelpful thread to the original poster.

 

#1 – “Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent.” – This does not say that Mothering opposes circumcision, only that routine circumcision is “questioned.” Personally, I believe any medical decision should be questioned and those making the decisions have access to sufficient information to make a fully-informed decision on what is best for them, their child and their family. Additionally, as the OP was seeking information on both sides of the issue, this clearly seems to fall within the exact scope of the Mothering policy.

 

#2 “It is our wish that this forum be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision." The original poster asked for information, and another poster here provided an answer regarding her family’s specific circumstance, which seemed well-matched to what the poster provided. That mother did not advocate circumcision, but simply stated that their family had chosen to circumcise for reasons based on their research and personal experiences. Since then, it appears to me that most of the rest of the thread has been attacking this particular poster.

 

For the most part in my experience, Mothering has been a community where women were respectful of one another’s feelings and opinions, and thoughtfully discussed and shared differences, rather than attacking them. I hope that most of my experience will remain as such.

 

My personal stance is anti-circ; but as with any other decision, I feel like it is the right of each set of parents to make that decision for themselves. I really believe a natural childbirth is the best choice for the majority of mothers – but I certainly don’t have the right to tell a woman she shouldn’t get an epidural/pain meds/etc. if she wants them just because I feel that her baby would be healthier if she didn’t receive them. I believe in breastfeeding, but know there are women who either cannot or do not wish to BF (and isn’t it wonderful that we live in a day and age where there are many formula options available to try to give our children the best nutrition otherwise, if not breastfeeding!).

 

I feel that several of the posts almost create a stigma on women who “don’t stand up” against their male partner if it is their male partner who supports circumcision. If the partner is supportive in the pregnancy, why shouldn’t they have at least an equal say in the care of their child? As this was on a homebirth discussion, many of us will have midwives (almost all if not exclusively women) who are assisting in our childbirths because – guess what, they understand much more than a man would about childbirth. Almost all lactation consultants are women. So why are we discrediting any man’s opinion about a portion of the anatomy that we cannot completely understand, but insisting on having other women to support us for “women’s issues”?

 

In case the OP is still checking in on this thread at all, here is some information on scientific studies that discusses both benefits and detriments of circumcision. It is still the position at the end of both that there is insufficient evidence to support a recommendation of routine circumcision, but again, not making a recommendation is far from suggesting that it is irresponsible of a parent to have their son circumcised when there is not an immediate medical need.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2878423/

http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm

 

Also, here’s a similar (albeit older) discussion on another message board which seems to have some thoughtful responses.

 

http://community.babycenter.com/post/a7932225/circumcision?cpg=3&csi=2029525239&pd=-1

post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenVose View Post

Quote:

 

I feel a couple of very important points were made in this post; points which have later been ignored and have led to hostile posts and to this becoming an unhelpful thread to the original poster.

 

#1 – “Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent.” – This does not say that Mothering opposes circumcision, only that routine circumcision is “questioned.” Personally, I believe any medical decision should be questioned and those making the decisions have access to sufficient information to make a fully-informed decision on what is best for them, their child and their family. Additionally, as the OP was seeking information on both sides of the issue, this clearly seems to fall within the exact scope of the Mothering policy.

 

 

Actually, although perhaps the language is not explicit, it does say that Mothering opposes routine infant circumcision (emphasis mine).  I do agree that this thread became somewhat hostile, and I hope that the OP can find the helpful aspects of this thread, and perhaps visit the Circumcision subforum for more information.

 

 

The Case Against Circumcision

Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. This forum hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, and care of the intact child's penis. We do not host discussion advocating routine infant medical circumcision. It is our wish that this forum be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision.

post #39 of 65
Circumcised Men do not have any special knowledge about Circumcision just by virtue of Penile ownership. They are known, as a group (with plenty of notable exceptions) to be extremely defensive & unable to see both sides of this issue because of their personal bias.

Women should be making medical decisions for their children. There is no special area they should be exempted from participating in. US hospitals & courts have spoken: until discharge, the mother's opinion *does* trump the father's, legally, despite his or her feelings on the matter.
Edited by dinahx - 8/9/13 at 2:30am
post #40 of 65
Women also do NOT have to trade/barter autonomy over choices which affect their body (birth & breastfeeding) for the final say in what happens to their male child's body. Just not a trade off any woman has to make or should be encouraged to make. Mothering definitely stands for the rights of the mother in all areas. We would never argue that a husband should get to make another medical decision just b/c he is a man.
Edited by dinahx - 8/9/13 at 2:30am
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