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Ethics regarding entire vaccination system - Page 2

post #21 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post

I really think it all comes down to trust and personal experiences (negative or positive) with medical system as a whole. This is not a black/white issue and ultimately it rests on the individual to decide or in our case, acting as a proxy for our children. My OWN experiences/ observations /research says the system is untrustworthy. However for other mamas who choose to vax have had different interpretations and experiences, thus has opposing viewpoints and certainly has the right to what they think is right for their children. At the end of the day, vax or no vax, we are all striving for the same thing.

Something we can all agree on.

However....

I really wish people would move on from making fun of Dr Offitt though. It doesn't help make a respectful vibe on these boards to make fun of high profile members of either side of the debate.

I personally don't find Dr. Offitt embarrassing. He's putting himself out there with a viewpoint which angers a lot of people, and which I think he believes to be true.

It is a fact that the immune system can handle 1000 different antigens at once. The old small pox vaccine contained 3000 different antigen I believe. That's different from 3000 needle sticks of course.

Lets debate the facts, not attack the personalities. smile.gif
post #22 of 102
Thread Starter 
The issue with Offitt...its very hard to take him seriously. Not only is he condescending/patronizing he makes huge blanket statements that simply defies common sense, at least with me. He sort of reminds me of provax version of Alex Jones. Neither man is helping the side they are purported to be on with their way out there radicalism.
post #23 of 102
post #24 of 102

I kind of find this hatred of Paul Offit amusing and somewhat baffling.  

 

People act as if he woke up one morning and made millions of dollars doing nothing.  It was for over 20 years worth of work and research.  Why shouldn't he make money for helping create a vaccine that is estimated to save hundreds of children's lives a day? He earned what he made, it's called making a living and reward for hard work. 

 

Close to 600,000 children a year die in poor countries from rota virus and he has saved thousands upon thousands of lives.  What a monster! 

 

For comparison, here is Dr. Mercola's mansion 

 

 

Want to guess how he made his fortune? Here's a hint, it's not from practicing medicine.  He has made himself a wealthy man (millionaire) selling dietary supplements and vitamins online.  

 

Here is Wakefield's luxury home that includes an indoor gym, 6 bathrooms, and 5 acres of land. 

 

 

 

But let's criticize Paul Offit eyesroll.gif

post #25 of 102
Here's a letter written by Offit

"In an email correspondence with David Brown August 18, 2009, Dr. Paul Offit writes:

David,

CHOP sold its patent for $182 million. This information was made publicly available and was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer at the time. The inventors, Fred Clark, Stan Plotkin, and me split 10 percent of that three ways. This means that we each received about $6 million. It was a ridiculous amont of money and certainly far more than any of us needs, but it is also a far cry from what has been claimed.

But the part that hurts the most is the continued claim that we did this for the money. I don’t know any scientist who does it for the money (you certainly don’t make much in salary). You do it because it’s fun and because you think you can contribute. And the reward for creating a vaccine was also never financial. The reward was watching this vaccine dramatically reduce the incidence of rotavirus hospitalizations in the US and now getting to watch the vaccine enter the developing world in countries like Mali, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Ghana, and Nicaragua. That’s why we did it.

It hurts to watch people slander me the way they do. They just don’t know me. Or any of us that work so hard to get a technology like the rotavirus vaccine to the countries where it will save the most lives.

Paul

Reprinted with permission from David Brown and Dr. Paul Offit."
post #26 of 102

I do not care that Offitt made money off his vaccine.  I expect people to be paid for their work.  Likewise Mercola.

 

I do care that the way he pushed through rotavirus seemed quite shady and laden with conflict of interest issues.  I am at work - but I will dig up links later if anyone is interested. 

 

He is also in favor of removing certain vaccine exemptions, which many people who value parental authority over medical decisions, hate.  Once again we get into conflict of interest - he wants a product he made to be borderline mandatory. 

 

Now, do people trot out Offitt  frequently?  Why yes, they do.  Just like some people trot out Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield whenever the mood strikes them. 

 

In a thread titled "Ethics regarding entire vaccination system" I think discussion on Ofiitt are very appropriate.

post #27 of 102
"Vaccines are not a perfect alternative. Anyone who says that this is case is simply wrong. But I'm afraid the same goes for the no vaccine alternative, it is not perfect either. Of course a lot of people against vaccines have a reached the conclusions that it is the best alternative, but they have done so by arguing that it is the perfect alternative. The perfect alternative claim for no vaccines is, without any doubt, wrong".


Who has said this? Making the decision not to vaccinate is very difficult and a decision that one continues to make every day. Who the heck said this? I want to see a quote. Arguments like this aren't even arguments. They are not about the subject at hand, they're just generalizations about a group of people who made a choice.
post #28 of 102
Thread Starter 
I've only brought Offit up just to clarify what made me comfortable in not choosing to vaccinate. Sure I find him to be a "clown " per se but that was in response to what he has stated. If you claim to be a medical expert and is aware of what is written in the vax inserts regarding possible side effects and such...WATCH what you state in public or yeah I will call you out on it. Seatbelt reference coupled with 10000 shots/antigens safety assurance was not the smartest thing to say. I don't claim to know the dude. I can only go by how he represented himself and yeah..basically sounded like anything but an expert.
As to Wakefield I do not know much about him other than autism/mmr controversy. Mercola, not familiar with him except his name seems to pop up a lot for selling products.
post #29 of 102
Thread Starter 
Grrrr
Someone (pro or antivax) please prove to me this "vax saves lives" theory. Its like me taking echinacea so I don't get cold and telling everyone echinacea saves me from cold. If someone asks me to prove this? Guess what? I wouldn't be able to.
Bah.
post #30 of 102
Sure I'll take the bait. It's high school biology time. smile.gif

Statements that vaccinations save lives are mostly based on the historical record of case rates dropping significantly after vaccination programs are rolled out. Some anti-Vax website will use death rate charts to point out death rates (e.g. From measles) dropped a lot before vaccines - and that's true. Antibiotics and modern medical care helped improve the outcome of many diseases. But even today measles death rate is about 1/1000 (it's hard to measure as the case rates are so low, but the recent outbreak in wales had ~1000 cases and 1 death, and 1/1000 was about the rate just before vaccination programs rolled out too). If the majority of the population got measles the projection is then that hundreds would die annually from measles.

That's just measles, as an example.

Tetanus is a completely different story. Is very rare, but there's no real treatment if you catch it. I don't know the death rate from tetanus off the top of my head, but vaccination is the only way to be sure you won't die if you're exposed to tetanus.

I could go on, but there's two examples. Obviously each case (diseases/vaccine) is slightly different. Flu shots mostly save lives by reducing circulation of flu and making it less likely vulnerable people will catch flu and die from complications.
post #31 of 102
The gentleman in Wales did not die from measles- we saw the news reports, did you miss his cause? And medical neglect at least in the states, you can sue for that but not the vaccine manufactures! When you are hospitalized and not even found to have measles sent home and die of something else- blaming it on just measles is simply not true- poor medical care counts for a death!
post #32 of 102
He died from pneumonia caused by measles http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23135464
If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.
post #33 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post

Grrrr
Someone (pro or antivax) please prove to me this "vax saves lives" theory. Its like me taking echinacea so I don't get cold and telling everyone echinacea saves me from cold. If someone asks me to prove this? Guess what? I wouldn't be able to.
Bah.

 


Randomized trials are what is used to determine that vaccines have a causal relationship with the reduction of the incidence of a disease. The process can be grueling, consisting of three clinical trials and often takes 15-20 years http://www.vaccineethics.org/issue_briefs/risk_safety.php

Most vaccines are rejected during this process. After a vaccine is licensed observational studies are conducted to ensure the vaccine is effective and that chances of serious adverse effects are low.

 

Historical data show how serious many of the diseases were in the past and how much many deaths were related to them. The following website has some examples http://www.livinggreenwithbaby.com/parents-guide-to-children-vaccinations/ (By the way, notice that this website is about green living). It's ironic how, as a result of vaccines being so effective in making many diseases rare, parents have started to believe that they are unnecessary. Yet, eliminating the vaccines would make the diseases return, and quite quickly as communities have seen with measles and pertussis http://www.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

 

The arguments stated here are much stronger evidence of the effectiveness of vaccines and how they help save lives than anything I've seen about echinacea for colds http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/echinacea/an01982

post #34 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

He died from pneumonia caused by measles http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23135464
If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.
He died because of the care he did not receive-he wasn't even diagnosed with measles until later- poor care- lack there of- not receiving treatment was the cause- medical neglect. Vaccines won't save you when you receive medical neglect!

Mr. Colfer-Williams had been sent home and not treated for measles nor pneumonia.


Quote:
If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.
I find your remarks not only utterly false but disturbing (given you science is not even in the medial field) that you would dare to assert that he would not have died - you must know something other do not! What week do the dizzy.gif stars say he should have died?
Edited by serenbat - 8/25/13 at 1:22pm
post #35 of 102
If a child has a vaccine and it causes a seizure - that is listed as the cause. If you have your An operation and get an infection following it- it's a complication after the fact- if you are not even given treatment, like the man in Wales- it's neglect. You can die regardless if you have vaccine if you don't receive proper care/vaccines are not 100%!

Lets remember pertussis, even those vaccinated for it don't always get just a "mild" case with NO complications.

Many many women find time after time they are not immune to measles even after countless vaccinations for it.
Edited by serenbat - 8/25/13 at 1:20pm
post #36 of 102
Thread Starter 
Bakunin, i will look into those links later when i have some time and see if there is correlation.
As to echinacea it was just a simple example to show how it is very difficult to prove object A prevented event B since if event B could have been prevented by
1. Object B or C or D ..etc etc
2. Combined with objects B or E etc etc
3. No correlation

This is why its so hard to prove at least in the realm of logic when the supposed event B NEVER happens. There is nothing we can observe in real time.
post #37 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post


He died because of the care he did not receive-he wasn't even diagnosed with measles until later- poor care- lack there of- not receiving treatment was the cause- medical neglect. Vaccines won't save you when you receive medical neglect!

Mr. Colfer-Williams had been sent home and not treated for measles nor pneumonia.
I find your remarks not only utterly false but disturbing (given you science is not even in the medial field) that you would dare to assert that he would not have died - you must know something other do not! What week do the dizzy.gif stars say he should have died?

 

He died of giant cell pneumonia.  It's a rare complication of measles, and it's basically fatal.  There's no treatment for it.  It's not bacterial- antibiotics won't treat it.

post #38 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post

 

He died of giant cell pneumonia.  It's a rare complication of measles, and it's basically fatal.  There's no treatment for it.  It's not bacterial- antibiotics won't treat it.

Mr. Colfer-Williams was simply sent home, he wasn't diagnosed with even having measles until his postmortem, no prevention was even attempted, he was given pain meds (paracetamol).

 

He was underweight and had recently detoxing. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699  Mr Rogers said it was thought one explanation for his symptoms could have been a reaction to one of the “detox drugs” he was taking and he was told to call the surgery if the problems persisted or worsened.

 

That is referred to as medical negligence in the US.

post #39 of 102
What type of "prevention?" No cure. No treatment. He got sick with a disease that most people will heal from without complication. Most people. Not everyone. He did not beat the odds. If he had been admitted to the hospital the same thing would have happened.
post #40 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post

What type of "prevention?" No cure. No treatment. He got sick with a disease that most people will heal from without complication. Most people. Not everyone. He did not beat the odds. If he had been admitted to the hospital the same thing would have happened.

so you must be advocating that there should be NO hospitalization, no intervention?      you are screwed - go home and die is appropriate moral health care?!

 

they didn't even suspect he had measles, he wasn't properly treated for anything- that's not even humane! 

 

if you look into this, there is really no evidence that conclusively states that he never had the MMR, just at the time they could not find it, I know many adults that don't have any idea if they did or did not have an MMR and to find the paper work is virtually impossible too

 

I am not disputing what he died of, I am stating nothing was done to prevent him from developing worsening symptoms when they didn't even treat him for having measles, you don't just go from measles right into Hecht's, and the words "most likely" and not words you use when you are certain.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699  He told the brief inquest at Swansea’s Civic Centre today that Giant Cell Pneumonia was one of the “most likely” causes of death associated with measles.

 

 

It's called "trying"  - http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/3/e57.full

 

Maybe the parent of Kali Harding should have just been sent home too according to your logic - http://www.livescience.com/39102-brain-eating-amoeba-survivor-can-speak.html

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