or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › " Court Rulings Don't Confirm Autism Vaccine Link"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

" Court Rulings Don't Confirm Autism Vaccine Link"

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I have heard many anti vaccine proponents try to use the court case in Italy as some kind of proof that there is a link between the mmr and autism.

Here is an article that goes into why that reasoning is flawed

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/

"
Italian courts, provincial or otherwise, are not known for basing their rulings in science. They are, after all, part of the system that led to a manslaughter conviction of six scientists for not predicting the 2009 L’Aquila earthquake, disregarding completely the obvious fact that such predictions are not, in fact, scientifically possible. In a similar way, the Italian court that made the MMR-autism ruling–the centerpiece of this latest “courts confirm” tripe–ignored completely the science made available to it and focused almost solely on the retracted Wakefield paper and a physician with a COI in making its decision. A decision that is, by the way, under appeal."

So the Italian courts handed down manslaughter charges against 6 people for not predicting an earthquake, which is currently beyond our scientific ability to do.

Court rulings do not equal science.
post #2 of 15

How about Hannah Polling?

 

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

 

Are you doubting the American judicial system (psstt…does that make you a conspiracy theorist ?!?!) .  You cannot have it both ways - you either accept the court system or you are a conspiracy theorist.  

 

What is good for the gander is good for, well, the gander….

post #3 of 15

Because it is a good link:

 

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#Claims

 

A list of vaccine claims, their results and the money paid out.

post #4 of 15

(OT: Thank you for that last link Kathy. I have been trying to remember where those numbers were at!)

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

How about Hannah Polling?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

Are you doubting the American judicial system (psstt…does that make you a conspiracy theorist ?!?!) .  You cannot have it both ways - you either accept the court system or you are a conspiracy theorist.  

What is good for the gander is good for, well, the gander….

This site is very buggy on my ipad, so sorry in advance for any issues.

Here is an explanation on the Poling case and why it doesn't mean what a lot of anti vaccine proponents think it does http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/on-the-rebranding-of-autism-as-a-mitochondrial-disorder-by-antivaccinationists/

"

So what does this mean? First, one thing that it doesn’t mean, contrary to all the P.R. over the last few days, is that the government has conceded that vaccines cause autism. It hasn’t, and science doesn’t support that contention even if it did. Mitochondrial disorders of the sort suffered by Hannah are genetic in nature and rare, an estimated 5.7 individuals per 100,000 worldwide, and, as described well in this New Scientist article, the subset of these disorders that cause autism-like symptoms is even more rare. It is also known that children with mitochondrial disorders are prone to encephalopathy in response to stress or fever that can cause them to regress. The source of this stress can often be an infection, such as a cold or normal childhood illness, that results in a fever.

It may have been exacerbated by the fever that occurred in the wake of the series of vaccines described; it may have been exacerbated by the girl’s recurrent bouts of otitis media. Either way, the government decided that the temporal course of vaccination and regression was close enough that under the law “compensation is justified.”
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

How about Hannah Polling?

 

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

 

Are you doubting the American judicial system (psstt…does that make you a conspiracy theorist ?!?!) .  You cannot have it both ways - you either accept the court system or you are a conspiracy theorist.  

 

What is good for the gander is good for, well, the gander….

 

 

I don't actually know that much about Hannah Polling's case or whether the court was right or wrong in it, but according to the article you posted, the ruling came as a surprise to experts in those areas and the doctor who diagnosed her:

 

 

Quote:
That decision, however, comes as a surprise to experts on mitochondrial disorders. In response to the Poling case, the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation has released a statement saying, "There are no scientific studies documenting that childhood vaccinations cause mitochondrial diseases or worsen mitochondrial disease symptoms."

Dr. John Shoffner, the Atlanta-based neurologist who identified Hannah Poling's mitochondrial disorder, is "genuinely puzzled" by the court's judgment. 

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html#ixzz2biDvCETR

 

It is not a conspiracy theory to acknowledge that sometimes courts get it wrong.  Our judicial system is even set up to try and compensate for erroneous rulings with higher courts and appeals.  I am not aware of anyone who believes it to be absolutely perfect or infallible. 

 

Conspiracy theories generally revolve around the idea that something is deliberately being covered up.  Believing that the court knew full well that vaccines had nothing to do with her condition and deliberately gave a dishonest ruling for whatever reason could be a conspiracy theory.  Believing that the court gave the ruling it felt was just and true but questioning or disagreeing with the conclusion they reached is not a conspiracy theory.  

post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


 Mitochondrial disorders of the sort suffered by Hannah are genetic in nature and rare, an estimated 5.7 individuals per 100,000 worldwide, and, as described well in this New 

Mitoaction says mitochondrial disease affect up to 1/2000 people.  

 

http://www.mitoaction.org/files/2012mito%20fact%20sheet.pdf

 

I do occasionally see numbers like the one you are saying, my suspicion is awareness and diagnoses are increasing, although maybe the incidence is increasing itself - I don't know.

 

The problem with something like the  MMR vaccine is that it is not uncommon to spike a high fever with it.  High fevers can cause autism like regression in those with mitochondrial disease.  I know some people are going to come on and say anyone can get a fever -which is true - but it also seems to me that fever is something to be avoided in those with mitochondrial.   Why give a vaccine that is known to commonly spike a fever?  Fwiw, only one of my 3 kids has ever spiked a high fever.  So, high fevers are not a given in this world.  Even if pro-vaxxers do not think everyone should avoid MMR over a fear of a 1/2000 mitochondrial disease risk - why not delay it?  It is not like measles, mumps or rubella is common.  There is little risk to delaying, and even if a parent does not know a child has a mitochondrial disorder by 1, they might by 3 or 4 if they delayed till then.  I would also argue the state should work harder at finding an easy test for mitochondria before vaccination - particularly as vaccines are borderline mandatory in some places.  It is the state's responsibility to make vaccines safer for everyone, and one of the ways to do that might involve better prescreening of who might be more likely to suffer due to  vaccination.

post #8 of 15

Here is a great discussion on mitochondrial issues (lots of sources cited) for anyone interested:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1370934/mitochondrial-disorders-and-autism

post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


 Mitochondrial disorders of the sort suffered by Hannah are genetic in nature and rare, an estimated 5.7 individuals per 100,000 worldwide, and, as described well in this New Scientist article, the subset of these disorders that cause autism-like symptoms is even more rare. It is also known that children with mitochondrial disorders are prone to encephalopathy in response to stress or fever that can cause them to regress. The source of this stress can often be an infection, such as a cold or normal childhood illness, that results in a fever.
 

My understanding is that Hannah's mother was found to have the same genetic mitochondrial disorder as Hannah.  Hannah's mother does not have autism.  I'm sure that she has had plenty of stresses such as infections, colds, fevers, etc., but she never regressed into autism.  She also had chicken pox as a child.

 

So why would she never have regressed into autism while Hannah did, if they shared the same genetic mitochondrial disorder?

Oh, that's right.  Hannah's mother was never injected with 9 vaccines simultaneously.

 

We KNOW those 9 vaccines were the tipping point for little Hannah.

 

And research has shown that mitochondrial disorders are NOT rare in children with autism. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3285768/ "he prevalence of MD in the general population of ASD was 5.0% (95% confidence interval 3.2, 6.9%), much higher than found in the general population (~0.01%)."

 

So where is the push to screen infants for mitochondrial disorders before vaccination?

 

Oh, that's right.  Infants are now exposed to vaccines even before they're born, as mothers are injected with flu shots and DTaP while pregnant.  They're given the Hep B vaccine the day of birth. Isn't that convenient?  Now we can't tell whether vaccines are triggering or even causing mitochondrial disorders (as they are known to do with some drugs), because the control group has been eliminated.

post #10 of 15
I don't take Forbes too seriously. They are ardent defenders of the establishment. They just published perhaps the most petulant argument about 'anti-Frackers' I have ever read ever. They are in the same category as Slate, IMO, they might as well be like a generic Multinational Corporation News & Views!
post #11 of 15
Quote:
If the people of a state don’t want the royalties and economic growth and jobs and truck traffic that come with oil and gas development, you can’t force it on them.

Of course! What kind of crazy doesn't want truck traffic!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/08/06/anti-frackers-win-chesapeake-gives-up-new-york-gas-leases/

I don't buy that even with the 'Special Masters' that court verdicts mean absolutely nothing. I just think they only represent (like all medmal verdicts) a tiny fraction of cases.

Otherwise why did we give up our rights to have our cases heard before a jury instead of the Scientific Overlords?!?!
post #12 of 15

Government Paid Millions to Vaccine-Injured Children - Fox News 2011

 

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Government Paid Millions to Vaccine-Injured Children - Fox News 2011

 

dr cynara sounded like a total idiot, completely dismissive of the horrible tragedy suffered by the child of the  hosting Dr Bridges..

post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I have heard many anti vaccine proponents try to use the court case in Italy as some kind of proof that there is a link between the mmr and autism.

Here is an article that goes into why that reasoning is flawed

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/

"
Italian courts, provincial or otherwise, are not known for basing their rulings in science. They are, after all, part of the system that led to a manslaughter conviction of six scientists for not predicting the 2009 L’Aquila earthquake, disregarding completely the obvious fact that such predictions are not, in fact, scientifically possible. In a similar way, the Italian court that made the MMR-autism ruling–the centerpiece of this latest “courts confirm” tripe–ignored completely the science made available to it and focused almost solely on the retracted Wakefield paper and a physician with a COI in making its decision. A decision that is, by the way, under appeal."

So the Italian courts handed down manslaughter charges against 6 people for not predicting an earthquake, which is currently beyond our scientific ability to do.

Court rulings do not equal science.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/08/-emily-willingham-on-mispresenting-the-facts-in-forbes.html

post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I have heard many anti vaccine proponents try to use the court case in Italy as some kind of proof that there is a link between the mmr and autism.

Here is an article that goes into why that reasoning is flawed

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/

"
Italian courts, provincial or otherwise, are not known for basing their rulings in science. They are, after all, part of the system that led to a manslaughter conviction of six scientists for not predicting the 2009 L’Aquila earthquake, disregarding completely the obvious fact that such predictions are not, in fact, scientifically possible. In a similar way, the Italian court that made the MMR-autism ruling–the centerpiece of this latest “courts confirm” tripe–ignored completely the science made available to it and focused almost solely on the retracted Wakefield paper and a physician with a COI in making its decision. A decision that is, by the way, under appeal."

So the Italian courts handed down manslaughter charges against 6 people for not predicting an earthquake, which is currently beyond our scientific ability to do.

Court rulings do not equal science.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/08/-emily-willingham-on-mispresenting-the-facts-in-forbes.html

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations Debate
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › " Court Rulings Don't Confirm Autism Vaccine Link"