or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Child peed on another child
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Child peed on another child - Page 2

post #21 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lakewood View Post

Wow!  When did feeling bad or sad become a crime?  How can we ever determine if a child feels bad because of their behavior or the discipline imposed?  Maybe we shouldn't hold kids responsible for their behaviors if the discipline might make them feel bad.  How did we as a society get to the point of making 'discipline' a bad word?

Just because a parent chooses not to punish does not mean they do not believe in discipline. Getting to the root of the issue by gently helping your child understand the situation IS discipline. In fact, it teaches REAL discipline, meaning it makes them want to do better, not just avoid punishment.

There are many, many people in our society who do unsavory things and don't think a thing of it because they know they won't get caught. Look at the phenomenon of freely ridiculing people on the Internet, such as taking photos of them without their knowledge and then making fun of them on social media. Those folks don't think about the fact that what they are doing is wrong. It's not even a consideration because they can't get caught. THIS is what our society has become.

I want my child to do the right thing because he wants to. Not because he fears getting caught. I want him to be kind and empathetic. I want him to consider others even if he doesn't know them. The best way I can do this is by treating him this way. It's not about letting him do whatever he wants. It's about teaching him to genuinely want to do the right thing. I try to always treat him with respect and not use manipulation. That's what everyone wants, why should he be any different?

What's really getting to me about this, is that the OP's child may really have something going on that needs attention. Her child has displayed a behavior that is not typical for a kid her age. If all that happens is the child gets punished with a time-out or whatever then something very important could be getting missed. This child needs to be heard. Maybe it's nothing and maybe it's a cry for help. It's not about being "right" or having "control". It's about the welfare of the child.

End rant.
post #22 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post


Just because a parent chooses not to punish does not mean they do not believe in discipline. Getting to the root of the issue by gently helping your child understand the situation IS discipline. In fact, it teaches REAL discipline, meaning it makes them want to do better, not just avoid punishment.

There are many, many people in our society who do unsavory things and don't think a thing of it because they know they won't get caught. Look at the phenomenon of freely ridiculing people on the Internet, such as taking photos of them without their knowledge and then making fun of them on social media. Those folks don't think about the fact that what they are doing is wrong. It's not even a consideration because they can't get caught. THIS is what our society has become.

I want my child to do the right thing because he wants to. Not because he fears getting caught. I want him to be kind and empathetic. I want him to consider others even if he doesn't know them. The best way I can do this is by treating him this way. It's not about letting him do whatever he wants. It's about teaching him to genuinely want to do the right thing. I try to always treat him with respect and not use manipulation. That's what everyone wants, why should he be any different?

What's really getting to me about this, is that the OP's child may really have something going on that needs attention. Her child has displayed a behavior that is not typical for a kid her age. If all that happens is the child gets punished with a time-out or whatever then something very important could be getting missed. This child needs to be heard. Maybe it's nothing and maybe it's a cry for help. It's not about being "right" or having "control". It's about the welfare of the child.

End rant.
I truly agree with you regarding your last paragraph.  However, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the concept of discipline.  I just quickly did a google search on the definition of discipline and this is what I found:
 
dis·ci·pline  
/ˈdisəplin/
Noun
The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Verb
Train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Synonyms
noun.   order - punishment
verb.   punish - school - castigate - train - correct - chastise
 
Just talking and discussing misbehavior with your child is not considered discipline according to the definition above.  The problem is that no matter how it might not be fair, it is important for us to view our child's behavior according to what is acceptable in our society.  The majority of child related organizations and agencies similar to our schools rely on conventional forms of discipline like timeouts, groundings, loss of privileges, etc. as forms of discipline.  It is because of this fact that it is important for parents to acclimate their child to these disciplines before they begin attending school, at least that is my opinion.  
 
Whenever someone is charged and convicted of a crime and appears before a judge for sentencing, rarely would the judge ever process the crime with the defendant.  Instead, the judge will impose a sentence very similar to a grounding.  I think it is very important for kids to understand the punishments and consequences that society can impose on them for inappropriate behavior and not expect anything less than that.
post #23 of 39
Mark L - What a different world we would live in if judges did work on processing the crime with the defendant. There would probably be a lot less people in jail. In fact, our over-crowded prison system is a great example of how punishment doesn't work.

My child will not be attending a school with these types of mainstream punishments because I don't believe that they work
or that they are good for him. I'm lucky because we have that choice. Many people on this forum homeschool to avoid this type of punitive system.

There is more than one definition of discipline, but thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

OP, I'm sorry we've gotten so off track here. I hope you find a solution. I'm sorry this situation happened to you! I won't be arguing anymore but if I come up with some other ideas I will definitely share. <3
Edited by dalia - 8/16/13 at 11:18pm
post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

Mark L - What a different world we would live in if judges did work on processing the crime with the defendant. There would probably be a lot less people in jail. In fact, our over-crowded prison system is a great example of how punishment doesn't work.

My child will not be attending a school with these types of mainstream punishments because I don't believe that they work
or that they are good for him. I'm lucky because we have that choice. Many people on this forum homeschool to avoid this type of punitive system.

There is more than one definition of discipline, but thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

OP, I'm sorry we've gotten so off track here. I hope you find a solution. I'm sorry this situation happened to you! I won't be arguing anymore but if I come up with some other ideas I will definitely share. <3

This is your right and you are very welcome!!

post #25 of 39
Thread Starter 

Yes, there has been a big change.  She had a baby brother born a month ago.

post #26 of 39
Thread Starter 

When I talked to her again about it, she told me when she did it she had a feeling that she couldn't describe.  I think she just couldn't put words to how it made her feel.  I'm sure it was embarassed/confused/sad...like another person said, she may have thought she was being funny and realized instantly it wasn't. 

post #27 of 39

I am curious if it was a purpose. If the child was underneath her, is it possible that she had an accident and the lower child got the results of that??

 

The reason I ask is because my kids have been in similar situations and they followed the lead of what the parent was saying and not what actually

happened. It wasnt until later that I found out that it was an accident all along. To some children there can be confusion to consequences....sometimes

accidents have the same consequences as purposeful actions. A young childs mind does not always distinguish between the two.

post #28 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lakewood View Post

Again my opinion, but I think it is very important for us to know the child's reasoning for their misbehavior after the very first incident.  The goal here is to prevent it from happening again.

I haven't found this to be true. It is very common for children around this age to try out a behavior that is shocking and out of character. Looking for causes after one isolated incident is an over reaction, especially when done with the harsh methods you suggest. It is also a time waster and takes focus off the actual problem behavior and puts it on the child not telling you the reason they did something which is not what I would focus on the first time something happens. The first time a child tries out a negative behavior nothing should take away from the message that that behavior was wrong.

I think there is a place for those methods when extinguishing the behavior is a goal (and it would be for me if it happened again) but that isn't after the first time something happens and it isn't to get the child to talk. Saying why you did something and peeing on someone are very different on the scale of offenses and the consequences should be very different. If harsh consequences are all around there is really not much incentive to stop.very negative behavior. I would be seriously worried about my parenting skills and my relationship with my DD if that was the only way I could get her to tell me why she did something.
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holleys8 View Post

I am curious if it was a purpose. If the child was underneath her, is it possible that she had an accident and the lower child got the results of that??

The reason I ask is because my kids have been in similar situations and they followed the lead of what the parent was saying and not what actually
happened. It wasnt until later that I found out that it was an accident all along. To some children there can be confusion to consequences....sometimes
accidents have the same consequences as purposeful actions. A young childs mind does not always distinguish between the two.

I thought about this as well. Could it have been an accident?
post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lakewood View Post

I truly agree with you regarding your last paragraph.  However, I respectfully disagree with you regarding the concept of discipline.  I just quickly did a google search on the definition of discipline and this is what I found:
 
dis·ci·pline  
/ˈdisəplin/
Noun
The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Verb
Train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.
Synonyms
noun.   order - punishment
verb.   punish - school - castigate - train - correct - chastise
 
Just talking and discussing misbehavior with your child is not considered discipline according to the definition above.  The problem is that no matter how it might not be fair, it is important for us to view our child's behavior according to what is acceptable in our society.  The majority of child related organizations and agencies similar to our schools rely on conventional forms of discipline like timeouts, groundings, loss of privileges, etc. as forms of discipline.  It is because of this fact that it is important for parents to acclimate their child to these disciplines before they begin attending school, at least that is my opinion.  
 
Whenever someone is charged and convicted of a crime and appears before a judge for sentencing, rarely would the judge ever process the crime with the defendant.  Instead, the judge will impose a sentence very similar to a grounding.  I think it is very important for kids to understand the punishments and consequences that society can impose on them for inappropriate behavior and not expect anything less than that.

Agree with dalia, what a different world it would be if the prison system actually worked!  Again a system put in place long ago, many advances have been made in our understanding of punishment how it just doesn't work, but we still continue to use the same old system.

 

 

"Is Punishment Effective?

 

Punishment also has some notable drawbacks. First, any behavior changes that result from punishment are often temporary. "Punished behavior is likely to reappear after the punitive consequences are withdrawn," Perhaps the greatest drawback is the fact that punishment does not actually offer any information about more appropriate or desired behaviors. While subjects might be learning to not perform certain actions, they are not really learning anything about what they should be doing.

 

Another thing to consider about punishment is that it can have unintended and undesirable consequences.  "  http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/punishment.htm

 

I think that says enough right there.  What we refer to as gentle discipline on here is a term that does not involve punitive methods that you continue to describe and your posts may be better suited elsewhere.

 

OP having a new baby in the house is a huge event! (Congrats!!)  I was 2.5 when my sister was born, and the day she came home I was told that I walked over to her bassinette and pushed it over.  Now she wasn't in it and my parents did believe in punishment so I was spanked and let me tell you it taught me nothing.  It didn't stop me from fighting with my sister in the future or doing other behaviors that seemed out of character for me.  I'm not sure at that age I would have had enough grasp of my emotions or the words to describe them or that any lengthy discussion would have gotten anywhere, but I'm sure if my parents had sat with me and used it as a learning opportunity to discuss the feelings I *could* have been experiencing I'd be far less reserved with my feelings today.  She said she couldn't describe the feeling, now you can sit with her and work out what it may have been and give her a word to put to that feeling so that if it comes up again she can tell you rather than act on it.


Edited by sassyfirechick - 8/18/13 at 2:56pm
post #31 of 39
I do think the new baby could be the reason for such a behavior. From everything I've heard it's pretty normal for a child to regress a little bit when a new sibling arrives. I'm sure I'll be dealing with it soon as we are expecting a newbie in October!

This is TMI, but I thought I would share. When I was about 9 or 10, I started peeing a little bit in the bed and sometimes on the floor... I have NO IDEA why. If someone would have found out, I would not have had an answer. I still don't!! Thank goodness no one found out because I probably would have been shamed for it. Anyway, I was reminded of this when the OP said her child had a "strange feeling" when she did it. Kind of like a compulsion and since kids don't have much impulse control in the first place it's normal for them to sometimes act on their compulsions. It's tough to be a kid!!

Good luck, OP. Keep us updated! :-)
post #32 of 39

OP, congratulations on your new baby. With regards to your older child, I agree with the PPs who said that this might have been accident or might be in response to the stress she's feeling from changes in her life. I also agree with the PPs who said that she might not know why she has done it. My recommendation would to help her focus on what she can do if she feels that way again (e.g. "what would you do differently if you had the idea to pee on the sandbox again?"). You can start with practical things (e.g. reminding her that when she needs to go to the bathroom to inside and do so, to let a grown-up know she needs to go to the bathroom, etc.) and then focus on other things (e.g. when you're curious about what would have if you did XXXX, what can you do? if you're upset with a friend, what can you do?).

 

I'd also like to remind everyone of the guidelines for this forum which state:

 

Quote:
This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.
Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

...

 

We can allow discussion about setting limits/boundaries as a part of Gentle Discipline. Interpreting punishment can be tricky sometimes because what some might see as punishment others might see as a natural consequence or a learning tool. Overall Mothering regards Gentle Discipline as a collection of lots of different approaches with a common thread that is the absence of violence. We do not embrace a particular parenting philosophy so our community may share and suggest different thinking and ideas that are based in a particular philosophy but there should be no defining of Gentle Discipline as such.

 

MarkLakewood, please edit your posts within this thread to comply with the forum guidelines. If you have any questions, please PM me.

 

I'd also like to remind everyone of Mothering's copyright policy:

 

Quote:

You may post:

  • A link directing readers to a discussion or article instead of the actual content itself.
  • 100 words or less from an article as long as those 100 words are not a substantial part of the piece. If you are quoting from a short work such as a poem or a short article, 100 words may not be an acceptable fair use allowance. You should restrict yourself to a minimal quote from the piece. Anything more requires permission to print/reproduce in written form by the copyright holder and placed within your post.

 

sassyfirechick, please edit the quote in your post to be less than 100 words.

 

If anyone has any concerns about what's been posted in this thread, please flag the post or send me a PM; please do not post to the thread to discuss concerns about another member's posts.

 

And, last but most importantly, thanks to all who have posted to help the OP explore gentle ways to support her daughter. OP, I wish all the best as you navigate this situation.

post #33 of 39

I would like to apologize to everyone in this forum for the advice that I gave.  Though I still believe in using consequences to hold kids accountable for their behavior, I did not realize that this forum believes heavily in the attached parenting model.  I did not read that when I visited  http://www.mothering.com/community/a/about-us.  Obviously, I do not subscribe to this model but I have full respect for those that do.  Again, I apologize for my recommendations which were inconsistent with this model.  I have just emailed the site administrator to close my account.  Good luck to you all!

post #34 of 39
Thanks for your post, HappyHappyMommy!

OP: I wonder if your daughter was simply curious? I would've been that kid ... I wouldn't have done it a second time, but I most certainly did all sorts of questionable things in the name of simply curiosity. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, were it my kid, other than to express my dismay and to let her know that it's not okay to pee on people. I wonder if she had a thought about it, was gripped by that thought, and then her body went along with it ... Especially if she already had a strong urge to pee.
post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lakewood View Post

Wow!  When did feeling bad or sad become a crime?  How can we ever determine if a child feels bad because of their behavior or the discipline imposed?  Maybe we shouldn't hold kids responsible for their behaviors if the discipline might make them feel bad.  How did we as a society get to the point of making 'discipline' a bad word?

I'm confused by the whole thread drift here....but, first.  I am also one who thinks kids need to feel bad, sad, disappointed etc.  Because protecting kids from bad feelings and consequences, then throwing them out to the world is a very cruel thing.    Sheltering your child from all pain for 18 years, then sending them to a college dorm is asking for trouble.  I'd rather they learn the lesson of pain and consequences when the lesson is more affordable, rather than out on their own for the first time.

 

But, back to the original post (which I assume is completely resolved by now.....and i'll be honest was slightly funny to me...sorry)

 

I remember vividly at age 7 pulling the hair of a much younger child.  I pulled it hard.  I STILL have NO idea why I did that.  It was the most awful impulse, and I can not even begin to explain why.  So, if someone had asked me why... the answer was and still is "I don't know".  Sometimes you just have that impulse to do something bad, and you can't ever explain why.  

 

Why does your older brother shoot you with rubber bands?  

 

Why do adults feel the urge to kick their spouse in the butt when he or she is bent over in an awkward position?

 

Why do we ALWAYS touch the paint when the sign says "Wet paint"?  

 

Kids are just weird and sometimes gross.  She's not going to go around peeing on people anymore.  That grandma now thinks the six year old is weird, and the six year old is probably not going to be the first kid on the four year old's birthday invite list.  But, that's part of life.  We make bad choices, learn from them, and move on.  

post #36 of 39

I went to a water park a couple weeks ago, and while I was walking up to one of the rides, a middle school-aged boy was leaning over from the ride tower to spit on me.  I jumped out of the way.  He spit actual phlegm.  huh.gif  I am one of those people that finds spitting in public completely disgusting and unacceptable, but I realize not everyone feels the same way, but still, I was kind of shocked.

Later I saw there were signs up that attendees found spitting from the rides would be removed from the park, so clearly this is an ongoing problem.  I think sometimes there is this whole temptation and impulse control thing going on.  I did things like that when I was younger.  I think my sister peed on my leg at one point, I don't remember quite clearly. There is a feeling in some circles that it's kind of funny.

 

Anyway, I do think that you have to react in a way that strongly discourages this behavior unless you do believe there is some other reason this is going on.  But I think most of the time it's kind of the whole cause and effect, let's see what happens, wouldn't it be funny type of situation.

post #37 of 39
Maybe I'm crazy, but is it possible she didn't pee on the child on purpose? I'm assuming "farmwife" lives in a country setting. Our grandson, just 5, who we watch 3 days a week and have here often otherwise, pees outside rather than making a trip to the house. We're in a really rural setting & he knows he can't do this at preschool or home, in town. I'm not saying you'd encourage a child to pee off the clubhouse, but is it possible she does sometimes & just didn't take the younger child into account? And is "victim" kind of overreacting here?
post #38 of 39
Fishy, I was wondering the same thing!
post #39 of 39
Thread Starter 

Yes, the kids do pee outside.  Especially when their swimsuits are wet and its a lot easier than getting dry and going in the house.  I really appreciate all the replies!!! 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Gentle Discipline
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Child peed on another child