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Vaccination: A Mythical History - Page 4

post #61 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Shooting yourself in the foot again, teacozy.

 

Confirmed Snake Oil Works Better than Pharmaceuticals

 

Oh good grief.  Is whether or not snake oil actually works ALSO in debate now?  In any case, snake oil salesmen is an expression... " Snake oil is an expression that originally referred to fraudulent health products or unproven medicine but has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is himself or herself a fraud, quack, charlatan, and the like."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

post #62 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 
 

So wheres the evidence his treatment was effective? I'm still waiting...

You are wating for proof from me that that Thomas Sydenham's smallpox treatment worked?  You are so very funny.

 

But here you can read his work for yourself:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZKIOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA503&lpg=PA503&dq=thomas+sydenham+smallpox+cure&source=bl&ots=3_J6WDpwhl&sig=MrT_OFuJk37SbPY-KrySXSz4GPc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i3tcUumHPIOGyAHQx4DoAw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=thomas%20sydenham%20smallpox%20cure&f=false

post #63 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 
 

Oh good grief.  Is whether or not snake oil actually works ALSO in debate now?  In any case, snake oil salesmen is an expression... " Snake oil is an expression that originally referred to fraudulent health products or unproven medicine but has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. By extension, a snake oil salesman is someone who knowingly sells fraudulent goods or who is himself or herself a fraud, quack, charlatan, and the like."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

I know what snake oil means, thank you.

 

A modern day snake oil salesman, would be Mr Paul Offit. Have a nice day.

post #64 of 141
Thread Starter 

Apple cider vinegar was used as an alternative to smallpox vaccination. From page 1 of this thread:

 

  In 1899 Dr. Howe also demonstrated vinegar’s ability to protect a person from acquiring smallpox. Those who used the vinegar protocol were able to take care of other people with smallpox without fear of contracting the disease. The author notes that despite several hundred exposures, vinegar was protective against smallpox and was considered an “established fact.
post #65 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Sorry, those photographs are not pure isolated virus, they are cell particles where the alleged virus resides. Viruses are always the same size and shape, the photographs show particles of slightly different sizes and shapes.

 

 

VIruses are not always the same size and shape!  :dizzyThat's just....wrong. 

 

ETA: "alleged virus"?  Do you not believe that viruses exist?

 

Every species of virus is the same size and shape, the paper describes the size differential between the various particles:

 

Quote:
The average width of the shadored elementary bodies of varicella wi-as found to be
210 m,u (with a range from 197 to 222 m,u) and the average length 238 m, (218 to
277 m,u), whereas the average size of elementary bodies of variola or' vaccinia,
measured under similar conditions, appears to be 244 by 302 m,u

 

It doesn't matter what I believe.

 

ETA: you can do the same for the measles virus, and when you find the primary research please be sure to inform the CDC, because they don't have it.

post #66 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Every species of virus is the same size and shape, the paper describes the size differential between the various particles:

 

 

It doesn't matter what I believe.

 

ETA: you can do the same for the measles virus, and when you find the primary research please be sure to inform the CDC, because they don't have it.

 

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  Really.  It's like a completely different reality than the one I live in.

post #67 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

You are wating for proof from me that that Thomas Sydenham's smallpox treatment worked?  You are so very funny.

 

But here you can read his work for yourself:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZKIOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA503&lpg=PA503&dq=thomas+sydenham+smallpox+cure&source=bl&ots=3_J6WDpwhl&sig=MrT_OFuJk37SbPY-KrySXSz4GPc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i3tcUumHPIOGyAHQx4DoAw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=thomas%20sydenham%20smallpox%20cure&f=false

 

An index is not evidence.  You are the one making the claim.  Where is the study? 

post #68 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post
 

Apple cider vinegar was used as an alternative to smallpox vaccination. From page 1 of this thread:

 

 

We already had a whole thread about this.  Wheres the study? A quote stating "The author notes" is not evidence. 

post #69 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 
 

 

An index is not evidence.  You are the one making the claim.  Where is the study? 

teacozy, you are cracking me up, you are asking for a study from the 17th century. :rotflmao

post #70 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post
 
 

 

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  Really.  It's like a completely different reality than the one I live in.

 

And yours is superior?

post #71 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

teacozy, you are cracking me up, you are asking for a study from the 17th century. :rotflmao

 

Yeah. Almost as funny as actually quoting a doctor from the 17th century as if it is some sort of legitimate evidence. :rotflmao 

post #72 of 141
Mirzam, pox viruses are "pleiomorphic", meaning they vary in size and shape. Those are isolated viral particles (virions).
post #73 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Mirzam, pox viruses are "pleiomorphic", meaning they vary in size and shape. Those are isolated viral particles (virions).

 

Viruses of the same kind are always the same size and shape (consistancy)

post #74 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 
 

Yeah. Almost as funny as actually quoting a doctor from the 17th century as if it is some sort of legitimate evidence. :rotflmao 

 

I did not quote it as 'evidence'. (Are we in a court of law now). The point was that allopathic treatment of smallpox could have been a cause of the high death rate, especially amongst the vaccinated (see City of Leicester as an example).

 

teacozy, I really don't give a flying fig about proving anything to you. If you choose to believe the fairy tale of smallpox and the vaccine, so be it. But when you really look into it, it is laughable.

post #75 of 141
You are entitled to your opinion, but they are not fact-based.
post #76 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

You are entitled to your opinion, but they are not fact-based.

Thank you, as are you, even if yours are not fact-based either.

post #77 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

You are entitled to your opinion, but they are not fact-based.

:yeah

post #78 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

I did not quote it as 'evidence'. (Are we in a court of law now). The point was that allopathic treatment of smallpox could have been a cause of the high death rate, especially amongst the vaccinated (see City of Leicester as an example).

 

teacozy, I really don't give a flying fig about proving anything to you. If you choose to believe the fairy tale of smallpox and the vaccine, so be it. But when you really look into it, it is laughable.

 

The point is that there is no evidence to support that theory.  

post #79 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

:yeah

Goes for you too teacozy, you are entitled to your non fact-based opinions also. :thumb

post #80 of 141

It would be nice to see actual ideas of numbers for given treatments and how effective they were.  Over history there were many different ways of treating small pox and I think it is disingenuous to suggest that mainstream medicine was always the best way.  It was often a terrible way. 

 

That doesn't mean that alternatives were necessarily better however.  Or that it was vaccination in the case of small pox that caused deaths.  A common method at the time was sweating out the fever.  Sydenham (mentioned by Mirzam and who made important contributions to medicine and wasn't just a "crank" and certainly wasn't a homeopath as he was a strong proponent of the use of laudanum in treating disease) thought that cooling the patient was better.  Here was his treatment:

 

Quote:
 Another apprentice was Thomas Dover. He had first-hand experience of the merits of Sydenham's cooling regimen when he himself caught smallpox.
 
"In the beginning I lost twenty-two ounces of blood [wrote Dover]40 in the Ancient Physician's Legacy. He gave me a vomit, but I find by experience purging much better. I went abroad by
his direction till I was blind, and then took to my bed. I had no fire allowed in my room, my windows were constantly open, my bedclothes were ordered to be laid no higher than my waist.
He made me take 12 bottles of small beer acidulated with spirits of vitriol every 24 hours
 

 

The author of the paper linked above suggests that common treatment methods at the time overheated and dehydrated the patients and that often led to death.  Now, it's difficult for me to see how bleeding over half a liter, inducing vomiting, and drinking a beer laced with alcohol every 2 hours would fail to cause dehydration, but maybe most physicians were doing that - they were just also adding lots of blankets to the mix.  I don't know.  But man, it is so interesting.

 

ETA: I don't know enough about historic medicine!  "Spirits of vitriol" is sulfuric acid, not liquor!  I guess that's why the beer was "acidulated", duh.  What a great name. 


Edited by cwill - 10/15/13 at 11:20am
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