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U.S measles cases in 2013 may be most in 17 years - Page 2

post #21 of 59
There is a M&R being offered in Africa right now. IDK the strain or the rest of the ingredients tho. Google GAVI M&R initiative.

If I was inclined to Vax in an outbreak, it would be 20% for disease avoidance, 40% because I would expect to have difficulty getting great treatment because of the political aspect & 31% for social fallout for our family (like the pitchfork factor), and 9% because of SSPE
post #22 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


But my question is (and this is not directed at you specifically) why would you vaccinate for measles if its just a benign childhood illness? No worse than a cold?

Given the attitude about measles that comes from a lot of NVers I just don't see NVers lining up to get the vaccine anyway.

So how many of you would 100% get a measles vaccine for your child if it came in a single dose vaccine and why?

teacozy…I think you are painting with broad strokes and the 100% is quite the absolute.

 

I do not think measles is a benign disease.  It has a higher complication and fatality rate than I would like.  I would much prefer a child get rubella, chicken pox, mumps, rotavirus, flu, and hep A than measles.  

 

I would absolutely be more likely to consider a straight forward measles vaccine than an MMR.  I don't think mumps and rubella vaccines should be given to children ( teens who have not had the disease?  maybe) - and I absolutely balk at giving drugs to a child that does not need them.

 

As to whether or not I would give a single monovalent measles vaccine - well, that depends.  I would want to know the safety profile of the vaccine (MMR is a fairly reactive vaccine, and I can never see myself giving it before age 3, even in a large outbreak.  Would a single measles vaccine have the same profile or not?) , I would consider the age of the child, health of the child and I would look at the likelihood of them getting the disease.  I can see me giving it in some circumstances.  

 

Now, ante up - any vaccines you can see yourself rejecting (and not just for "medical reason"?  )


Edited by kathymuggle - 9/13/13 at 9:21am
post #23 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by nia82 View Post
 

The MMR rate in Germany is really high, yet there are plenty of cases of measles. I'd love to know which age groups exactly are infected (maybe young adults who had MMR at 12 months and then never again?).

 

Weird, eh?

post #24 of 59
Weird indeed. I can't find numbers. Only how many overall infected and age groups, but not vaccine status. I haven't looked through the numbers cause I'm busy with other stuff today.
post #25 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Right. So anyone who doesn't have time to watch a 45 minute video is pointless to debate with. Ok good to know. I'm sure I can dig up some 45 minute pro vaccine video one of these days and we will see how many people watch it.

What exactly does this person say about immunity or measles that can't be found in print online somewhere? If its not an opinion piece then the information should be easy to find in print on the web.

Criticizing me for not watching the video is pretty ironic since your the one who won't show me your evidence proving that the kids that died in the 90s were malnourished and unhealthy.

You seem to have plenty of time to debate...
post #26 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

You seem to have plenty of time to debate...

Thank you for such an excellent contribution to this thread, it was so enlightening eyesroll.gif

Does it take you 45 minutes to write a response in a thread? It takes me about 5 minutes max, even on an ipad, especially if I have links handy.
post #27 of 59
Thread Starter 
@kathymuggle

I'm glad you at least somewhat acknowledge the dangers of measles, even if I disagree with you on the importance of the rubella vaccine.
post #28 of 59
I'm not in line with the entire post, (e.g. the autism tangent), but the blogger makes some good rebuttals against media measles hysteria.

http://gianelloni.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/why-all-the-measles-outbreaks/
post #29 of 59

 

From the above article:

 

Speaking of jokes. I found this awesome picture on the CDC website today. It was published on August 24, 2013 so I’m not showing an outdated picture from the CDC website.

measles cdc websiteFIGURE 2. Number of measles cases (N = 159), by state — United States, 2013*  * As of August 24, 2013.

THIS. These numbers are what we are making a big deal about? This picture is what CNN is basing it’s breaking news story on. Are we serious?

post #30 of 59

Oh and the article states there have been no measles deaths since 2003. 

 

Quote:
I went through the last few years of measles “outbreaks”, and there hasn’t been a measles death since 2003, despite years and years of “outbreaks” being caused by the unvaccinated. Which by the way, do you notice that we are always having the “worst outbreak in years”, every year? In 2008, we had an outbreak in San Diego…this is how they worded it….”In the end, 839 people were exposed to measles. Eleven were infected.” 11. But in 2008, if you remember the headlines, it was the worst measles outbreak. Ever.

 

I thought this comment from Dr Lawrence Palevsky, was worth bearing in mind, from Part I of the series:


 

Quote:

We fail to include that viruses have a life cycle, and that they are in relationship to other organisms and to us. Something activates them and something actually stops them, and it has nothing necessarily to do with the percentage of people who would have the illness or who have been vaccinated. …

 

 

Given that vaccines do not offer life-time protection, and lose their effectiveness anywhere between 2 and 10 years, we have not had herd immunity with fifty percent of the population for 20 or 30 years, but no, as Dr Russell Blaylock says in the first article:

 

Quote:
Herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades, and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations”.

 

I again, will refer back to Boulder CO with just a measly 60% fully vaccinated rate and no measles outbreaks. The two measles cases from CO shown in the above graphic was not in Boulder, but south Denver.

post #31 of 59

Putting Measles Into Perspective

 

I realize many won't like the source, but I think the author does a good job at showing the true death rate of measles in the US.


 

Quote:

In the screen shot below, I have figured out the percentage of people who died from measles of all of the measles cases back then.  0.015%.  Suddenly, measles seems a little less scary doesn’t it? The CDC claims that around 1 or 2 out of a thousand people who get measles will die from measles. Their math doesn’t add up though. I guess they use the term “about” lightly.

 

post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 
@ Mirzam

The fact that such few amounts of cases can be called an outbreak is a GOOD thing, it means that the disease is rare. We wouldn't balk at 11 cases of smallpox in the US being called an outbreak would we? Or 20 cases of polio or 20 cases of terburculosis?

Would we laugh if 20 cases of the common cold made national news? Yeah probably.

The MMR is expected to be very long lasting, longer than the 5-10 years that you claim. See http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-questions-answers.aspx

I had titers drawn when I was pregnant with my son and I am still immune to measles even though I never had the natural disease, and I got vaccinated for measles over 20 years ago.

I'm not sure what your point is about Boulder. Do you somehow think unvaccinated people in boulder are immune to measles? Just because they don't have any cases yet doesn't mean they won't ever have an outbreak.
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I'm not sure what your point is about Boulder. Do you somehow think unvaccinated people in boulder are immune to measles? Just because they don't have any cases yet doesn't mean they won't ever have an outbreak.

I'm on my phone so will only address this comment. My point is with a 60% vaccine rate, there is technically insufficient vaccine herd immunity, and by rights there should be measles outbreaks, but the last case of measles was in 2007 in a baby too young to be vaccinated who had traveled back from India and Thailand (I guess her mother didn't have natural immunity to protect her).

Where are all the measles cases in clearly under-vaccinated Boulder? Perhaps the measles virus has reached a point in its life cylcle that it is naturally dying out or so mild that it goes unnoticed? I would submit children in Boulder, given its affluence and health consciousness, the children are likely healthier than many other parts of the country.
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

@ Mirzam

The fact that such few amounts of cases can be called an outbreak is a GOOD thing, it means that the disease is rare. We wouldn't balk at 11 cases of smallpox in the US being called an outbreak would we? Or 20 cases of polio or 20 cases of terburculosis?

Would we laugh if 20 cases of the common cold made national news? Yeah probably.

The MMR is expected to be very long lasting, longer than the 5-10 years that you claim. See http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-questions-answk.

I can't adjust the quote feature from here, but I will say that if, in 1983, the CDC or someone in the media had posted a similar map for chicken pox, you would have heard a lot of laughter. Heck, I still laugh when I see some local newspaper discuss a chicken pox case as though it were Ebola.

In the grossly hypothetical scenario of a common cold vaccines, (for various scientific reasons, it's probably not going to happen), we'd hear sob stories of the immunocompromised to guilt us into compliance. And I'm quite confident we'd see the Map.
post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

I can't adjust the quote feature from here, but I will say that if, in 1983, the CDC or someone in the media had posted a similar map for chicken pox, you would have heard a lot of laughter. Heck, I still laugh when I see some local newspaper discuss a chicken pox case as though it were Ebola.

In the grossly hypothetical scenario of a common cold vaccines, (for various scientific reasons, it's probably not going to happen), we'd hear sob stories of the immunocompromised to guilt us into compliance. And I'm quite confident we'd see the Map.

Well in 1983 chickenpox was still rampant wasn't it? Before the vaccine there was an average of 4 million chickenpox cases a year. So of course 20 cases wouldn't make the news.

Again, the fact that it makes the news means its RARE which is good. There's a reason you don't read "20 year old college student dies in car accident" on national news sites. It's a boring headline, it unfortunately happens a lot.

The CDC has never claimed that chickenpox is as deadly as measles. On the CDC website they claim 100-150 deaths per 4 million cases which works out to around 1 death per every 26,000 cases.

http://www.cdc.gov/Features/preventchickenpox/

Measles is objectively more serious and dangerous.

Does anyone have any evidence that the CDC/WHO has claimed that chicken pox is as deadly as measles? Because I hear that argument being made all the time but I have never seen any evidence to support it.
post #36 of 59

Intriguing.  Here the CDC says the mortality rate from varicella is 1/60 000 (and 1/100 000 in children)

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/varicella.pdf

 

"...in the prevaccine era, approximately 11,000 persons with 
varicella required hospitalization each year.... Death 
occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases...
...among children aged 1-14 years of age, the fatality rate of varicella is approximately 1 per 100,000 cases, among persons 
15–19 years, it is 2.7 per 100,000 cases, and among adults 
30–49 years of age, 25.2 per 100,000 cases. Adults account 
for only 5% of reported cases of varicella but approximately 
35% of mortality."

post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


Does anyone have any evidence that the CDC/WHO has claimed that chicken pox is as deadly as measles? Because I hear that argument being made all the time but I have never seen any evidence to support it.

Please quote where that argument was made on MDC. I have never seen it.

post #38 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Please quote where that argument was made on MDC. I have never seen it.

I didn't explain what I was trying to say very well so I apologize. The old vaccine debate forum is closed so I can't search for examples.

What I meant was that I hear the argument comparing the media hype/fear of measles to that of chicken pox and how measles, like chicken pox, was once considered a mild childhood illness that has now been "rebranded" as something scary and dangerous and that measles is no worse than chicken pox.

Here's a quote from mercola demonstrating what I mean " Merck's chickenpox vaccine was approved for licensure in the US in 1995. At that time, what had always been regarded as a relatively benign childhood illness was suddenly reinvented as a life-threatening disease for which children must get vaccinated or face dire health consequences."

But thats not what the CDC says about CP at all. Per your own link they say that severe complications from CP in healthy children are very rare, 1/ 100,000. They dont try to make it look like CP is some horrible life threatening disease. They recommend it because your chance of dying from CP is still much higher than your chance of dying from the vaccine.

Even using the most conservative death estimate from the CDC on measles it is still 100 times more likely to kill than chicken pox is.

Measles has always been a more dangerous disease than chicken pox, and I hear a lot (not all) of NVers compare them as being equally mild childhood illnesses.
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post


I didn't explain what I was trying to say very well so I apologize. The old vaccine debate forum is closed so I can't search for examples.

What I meant was that I hear the argument comparing the media hype/fear of measles to that of chicken pox and how measles, like chicken pox, was once considered a mild childhood illness that has now been "rebranded" as something scary and dangerous and that measles is no worse than chicken pox.

Here's a quote from mercola demonstrating what I mean " Merck's chickenpox vaccine was approved for licensure in the US in 1995. At that time, what had always been regarded as a relatively benign childhood illness was suddenly reinvented as a life-threatening disease for which children must get vaccinated or face dire health consequences."

But thats not what the CDC says about CP at all. Per your own link they say that severe complications from CP in healthy children is very rare, 1/ 100,000. They dont try to make it look like CP is some horrible life threatening disease. They recommend it because your chance of dying from CP is still much higher than your chance of dying from the vaccine.

Even using the most conservative death estimate from the CDC on measles it is still 100 times more likely to kill than chicken pox is.

Measles has always been a more dangerous disease than chicken pox, and I hear a lot (not all) of NVers compare them as being equally mild childhood illnesses.

 

AFAIK, Mercola is not a member let alone a regular poster on MDC. Please give us examples of where those that choose not to vaccinate have stated that measles is equally mild as chickenpox. You are making things up.

 

What the CDC and the like have done since the introduction of chickenpox is hype up the fear of a very mild, self-limiting childhood disease. The UK doesn't even have the varicella vaccine on the schedule, which says something. However, there does now seem to be an increase in the hype about its 'dangers' and the need for the vaccine in the UK media. They can't of course rant on about pediatric deaths, so they have to focus on adults. Here is a BBC piece on the rise of adult chickenpox deaths. Here is the actual research referenced in the article.

post #40 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

AFAIK, Mercola is not a member let alone a regular poster on MDC. Please give us examples of where those that choose not to vaccinate have stated that measles is equally mild as chickenpox. You are making things up.

What the CDC and the like have done since the introduction of chickenpox is hype up the fear of a very mild, self-limiting childhood disease. The UK doesn't even have the varicella vaccine on the schedule, which says something. However, there does now seem to be an increase in the hype about its 'dangers' and the need for the vaccine in the UK media. They can't of course rant on about pediatric deaths, so they have to focus on adults. Here is a BBC piece on the rise of adult chickenpox deaths. Here is the actual research referenced in the article.

There are hundreds and hundreds of threads and thousands of responses and I don't have time to go through them. However just a quick poking around I came across this

"Measles doesn't scare me. Measles was to my parents generation what chicken pox was to mine. For the vast majority of healthy kids it was a nuisance illness." Marnica

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1361419/help-the-same-mmr-question-again-ugh

I guess if you consider the CDCs own website calling it a generally mild childhood illness and stating that severe reactions in healthy children are rare and putting the number of 1/100,000 as the death rate to be hyping up the fear then I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the death rate from the CP vaccine Is?The MMR vaccine? One out of what?

If measles rates were as high as the CP pre vaccine rates were (which they probably would have been since it is so contagious) that would mean anywhere from 4,000-12,000 deaths a year in the US from measles.

To put that in perspective that's more than the average amount of women that die from cervical cancer every year in the US.
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