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Trip to ER has me doubting again - Page 2

post #21 of 34

OP, I know how you feel. I too recommend the Doctor Sears book as overview and introduction. I was never lectured, but I got raised eyebrows and snippy comments from nurses and one resident (not counting the military doctors, they were awful, but they never succeeded in making me doubt myself, instead I knew right away those guys couldn't care less about my child's health, only about their ego and power trip). THe more I researched and learned, the better I felt. For me age was a huge factor. Apart from a serious outbreak of something I consider dangerous enough (e.g. a chickenpox outbreak wouldn't phase me), I would have considered to vaccinate below 24 months. But otherwise no. That's the big thing we concluded. The next step was which diseases do we want to vax for, at what interval and what brand and how many doses. We e.g. choose way less doses than "required". The kids had one MMR and excellent titers. A 2nd MMR would have unnecessarily burdened their systems. 

After Dr. Sears I recommend to google the package inserts of the vaccines you are considering. Read up on their efficacy and titer levels after 1/2/3eg doses. You'll be amazed how little doses it takes for most people.

post #22 of 34

Well then, I am kind of naughty too!  I am more non-vax than selective/delayed although I have a lot of respect for the selective delayed position.  

 

I don't know - sel/delayed is a weird forum, as it is open to hearing both POVs. I am not sure it should go so far as suggesting someone vax or not vax though.  

 

Maybe flag it (you can flag mine if you like) and see if the mods tell us to get back to our home forums?  There are not a huge number of active posters on MDC, so conversation will shrivel up and die if we have to stay away.

 

For myself, I am going to try and stay off vaccination on schedule as I have no business there, but sel/del feels a bit more open to non-inflammatory, non-bickerring info from various POV's.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/19/13 at 11:04am
post #23 of 34

ER's are a nightmare situation all the way around.  I personally would try to brush off the ER doctors lecture and if you are still uncertain talk to your children's ped or family doctor.  I would take their suggestions about the risks the specific child they have a relationship with over an ER doctor who sounds like he/she was just going through protocol and giving a canned speech.

 

I personally would avoid telling a doctor treating your child the child was "up to date" as in your own schedule which is none.  Saying they are up to date will make the doctor thing vaccinated on schedule.  That may end the conversation but it might also mean that they miss something regarding the care for the child because they are operating on a false pretense. JMHO.

post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

 

I have been checking Sel/Del and Vaccinating on Schedule subforums both with sincere interest and without any intent to break the forum rules or make a nuisance of myself. When the forums changed, this was the guideline posted: "Posts to these forums should be out of sincere interest for the forum's support topic and not to argue or debate, nor to criticize, make fun of, or make negative generalizations about others.I think I have done this. I am reading the threads in both forums; when I do post, I am trying to do so in the spirit of support, research, and individual choice. I post mainly in "Vaccinating on Schedule" because it is in there where my perspective can be most often supportive.

 

I thought the main point was for people to have forums where they can explore ideas genuinely without feeling attacked. Up until recently, people who vaccinated on schedule and people who selected or delayed all posted together on one subforum--and we do have enough things in common to be able to support each other. There are also people on this thread who do not vaccinate at all, and who participate in the "I'm not Vaccinating" forum, like Kathymuggle, who I think has posted on this thread and in the sel/del section because she is happy to discuss--in a non-debating manner--the merits or drawbacks of particular vaccines. I never thought that Kathymuggle should absent herself because she also posts in "I'm Not Vaccinating". As far as I could read, she was also being supportive and posting helpful information from her perspective.

 

I can sincerely relate to feeling undecided because I didn't have enough research at my fingertips. People used to ask me how I felt about marijuana. I don't smoke it and don't really have an interest in it. I also hadn't looked at the issues enough to know whether I felt it should be legal or not. I felt silly saying that I didn't know, and people (on both sides of the issue) would get mad at me, like I had taken the opposite view from them, even though I was saying I didn't know. It's ok to say you're not sure yet. After reading lots of different opinions on the subject, I finally felt like I had some knowledge base to have an opinion about marijuana. It sort of sounded like the OP was also coming from this place of uncertainty, and could use some different perspectives to sort of mull over. That's why I posted.

 

In any case, the main thing is that the OP, who currently does not vaccinate at all, posted on the Sel/Del forum, saying: "Should I consider selective?" Likely most of the posters in the Sel/Del forum are going to be supportive of the whole Sel/Del thing--I thought that was the point--so my answer to her is: yes, you should consider it, and here is my perspective on why.

post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

I don't know - sel/delayed is a weird forum, as it is open to hearing both POVs. I am not sure it should go so far as suggesting someone vax or not vax though.  

 

For myself, I am going to try and stay off vaccination on schedule as I have no business there, but sel/del feels a bit more open to non-inflammatory, non-bickerring info from various POV's.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

The idea here, Michelle, is that you pick your subforum and more or less stick to it. As the current ringleader of the vax on schedule forum, it's not appropriate for you up actively post persuasive arguments in sel/del.

Since sel/del encompasses those who just stretch out the full schedule and others who pick and choose and others who are practically non-vax, what I would like to see on this forum  is for posters who "belong" on other forums but might have some good information and encouragement to offer is to show your biases clearly.  That's what I did by putting my homeschooling quote on my signature.  It keeps me totally honest and transparent, even when I post ever so occasionally on the Learning at School forum and threads pertaining to learning.  If it's not in your signature, perhaps those feeling helpful (I love helpful people from every viewpoint, personally) is to say "Hey, we vax on schedule, and here's the information I find encouraging", or "Non-vaxxer here, but I hope you can use my experiences to help you make your decision with confidence."  

 

Some of us who have lurked for a while know who everyone is and where they "belong", but others don't.  Show your cards, and please, share the good information you have.  Being "in the middle" here myself, I think we sel/del folks might need and welcome that info and advice more than others.

post #26 of 34

Well, I'm not a signature kind of person, but saying, "We vaccinate on schedule, but here's some stuff I like," would be fine. I sort of thought that was what I was saying, but that first explicit sentence is a good thought.

post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakotacakes View Post
 

I personally would avoid telling a doctor treating your child the child was "up to date" as in your own schedule which is none.  Saying they are up to date will make the doctor thing vaccinated on schedule.  That may end the conversation but it might also mean that they miss something regarding the care for the child because they are operating on a false pretense. JMHO.

 

From what I've read of others' experiences, once a medical professional at the ER hears that the child is not up to date on vaccines, that's what they latch onto, sometimes obsessively, and lose sight of the immediate problem at hand. I think the doctor or nurse being distracted by that is a lot more dangerous than possibly missing a diagnosis of a vaccine available disease. Most people know vaccines aren't 100% effective. If the parent truly suspects the child's problem is related to a vaccine available disease, the parent could either tell the doctor the child hasn't gotten all doses of that specific vaccine, or the parent could remind the doctor that vaccines aren't 100% effective, and ask if the doctor has any reason to suspect that as a possible diagnosis.

post #28 of 34

I often do let people know I am non-vax, but sometimes I forget.  A siggy is a good idea.

post #29 of 34

The guidelines state:

 

Support Forums

The I'm Not Vaccinating, Selective & Delayed Vaccination and the Vaccinating on Schedule forums are for support only. Members should determine which forum best suits their needs and post to that forum to get and share information. These forums do not host discussions that denigrate, insult or otherwise negatively generalize about the vaccination advocacy or practice of others. 

 

So yes, you should choose which support forum best suits you as an individual to post to based on your personal practices and beliefs and the support forums purpose aligning with your practices and beliefs and stay with that forum. 

post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

"
I have also researched vaccine very heavily.  I have decided not to vaccinate.  That is also fine.  I am not 100% convinced I am right, btw, but I am 100% convinved I do not have, nor can I get, enough info to be comfortable vaxxing.  My darn crystal ball is broken.

Brilliantly said. And I concur. smile.gif
post #31 of 34
First I wanted to ask if you ever stated whether this doctor is a man - it seems some are calling this ER doc a "he". Did I miss where you said that?  
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thispathisme View Post

Ugh! No questions I guess. Just don't have many ppl IRL who would have this conversation with me. I hate not being sure about my decision.

 

I think maybe part of why you were approached the way you were is because you're not sure. I think doctors kind of seize on that - for good or for bad.  On the one hand, if they think you aren't sure, maybe their advice can be taken as just trying to inform, yk?  I think I come off as pretty confident to doctors and get very little slack, especially the second go round. Full disclosure, I'm delayed/selective but I did  take DC to the ER for a puncture wound before she had any immunizations and wasn't given a hard time at all. No lecture whatsoever. The only advice I got was to consult my DC's pediatrician if I was concerned. 

 

If you're still searching, the site I found most informative was the WHO delayed schedule. I just went down the list and weeded out first the things that weren't deadly. Then I went down and weeded out the things that my DC was too old for. At that point, you're dealing with a much less daunting number of vaccinations to research.  

 

This would be handy info in general. Of course not vaccinating doesn't mean you have to be an experts on vaccines...but I do think it probably helps to know your stuff if you keep having run-ins with doctors. 

post #32 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all of the replies. I'm on my phone so forgive me if I don't reply to everyone who took the time to write.

Doc was a man. And I may have come off unsure.. But I did so purposefully hoping to avoid a hostile response which I found I was getting when I clearly stated we were no vax and the reason why was because that was what we thought was best. If course that wasn't true but I wanted to give the impression that the decision was made to avoid any follow up conversation. So this time round I was a bitmore honest and said we hadn't come to a decision yet so we were waiting. I guess that did open it up for him to comment, however, our visit was unrelated to VADs so I was unhappy that it was even brought up to begin with.

I've been reading mothering, especially these forums, for over 3 years now so very familiar withe the regulars. I recently started posting but as a single mom (1 and 3 year olds) in a new, second career I truly don't have free time - except in the bathroom. DD still wakes at night and often won't sleep without me so it's tough atm.

I have Dr. Sears' book and have not read it through but what I have read has convinced me that not vaxing has been a good choice. With that said, I fully realize I am not well informed - maybe just more gan the average - and that does not sit well with me. I worry all the time because I am not sure. But atm I would be even more upset to agree to a vax now without feeling fully informed.

A lot to think about and some good ideas from PPs on where to/ how to narrow it down so the research is less daunting.

Thanks again for the discussion and POVs.
post #33 of 34

 I simply say we use another dr. as our reg. ped (it's a closed HMO so otherwise they would have access) and that I prefer not to share that information.  Then, they could ask a specific question if it was relevant.  "when was his last tetanus shot?"  or go ahead and say if he  hasn't had a tetanus shot he should get one. 

 

We selectively vax (and to be perfectly truthful) in an ER situation I wouldn't remember when and which vaxes he has had 100% and I do prefer for my HMO not to have his shot record.  Also, if they are looking a for disease there is a vax for the should go ahead and do the testing, vaccinated or not.  My child who was vaxed for chicken pox-had chicken pox-because they swabbed and cultured, we have proof he had the chicken pox (which fulfills any booster requirements).

post #34 of 34
Bottom line is this ER doc radically simplified the issue so much so as to be not in any way correct, there are absolutely studies that show *harm* from vaccines. Maybe not 'more risk than benefit' but some potential for harms have been amply documented for almost every vaccine.

I would consider a random ER Doc wholly unqualified to advise me on long term decisions around immunization, however I do agree that I would not actually lie about our status.
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