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Another thinking doctor: The unfortunate story of 37 deaths from a ‘good vaccine’

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

This article is by the Head of Pediactrics at a Delhi hosptial.

 

http://health.india.com/diseases-conditions/the-unfortunate-story-of-37-deaths-from-a-good-vaccine/

 

Quote:
We need to understand that the mandate of the health services and doctors is to protect the lives of children and not to promote vaccines of doubtful utility and safety.
post #2 of 9

The question is: Will they do something about it or just keep pushing the vaccines onto poor/sick/medical unexamined - take your pick- children?

post #3 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

This article is by the Head of Pediactrics at a Delhi hosptial.

 

http://health.india.com/diseases-conditions/the-unfortunate-story-of-37-deaths-from-a-good-vaccine/

Quote:

We need to understand that the mandate of the health services and doctors is to protect the lives of children and not to promote vaccines of doubtful utility and safety.

Excellent point.  That mandate seems to have been lost in the US several decades ago.

post #4 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

This article is by the Head of Pediactrics at a Delhi hosptial.

 

http://health.india.com/diseases-conditions/the-unfortunate-story-of-37-deaths-from-a-good-vaccine/

 

 

Yes, the article is written by someone named Jacob Puliyel who is a known vaccine skeptic. He insinuates in the article that vaccines may cause SIDS, a claim for which there is no evidence of. 

 

From the article "Arora, who works for Inclen Trust, went to the state, visited the hospital and the homes of the dead children and issued a press release that there was no conclusive evidence that the deaths were due to the vaccine. Septicemia, pneumonia and meningitis were blamed..." 

 

I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he talked about how soon after receiving the vaccines these children died.  He just says after, which isn't telling us much. 


Edited by teacozy - 10/23/13 at 7:31am
post #5 of 9

The man who wrote this is the head of pediatrics?  Really?  Wow. 

 

Quote:
 The 29 deaths had happened when 82 lakh doses have been administered (and about 27 lakh children have been immunized). This works out to more than one death per 100,000 vaccinated and that 300 children would die each year from the vaccine when the birth cohort is vaccinated. 

 

Typical following/from confusion.  India has quite a high infant mortality rate - about 46 deaths per 1,000 live births for 2012.  That work out to 460 deaths per 100,000. Out of those 460 deaths, does it seem unreasonable to expect just one to happen following a vaccine?  Actually, it does.  I would expect a higher number, so I would agree that there is probably under-reporting going on.  

 

Each death is a tragedy.  But what does he expect, for all other causes of death to magically stop in the days/weeks following vaccination so we can know it was the vaccine? The deaths from HIB and other things the vaccine is meant to prervent may indeed be prevented, but other than that, they don't stop.  Just because a death happens after a vaccine doesn't mean it was caused by it. Where does he show that statistically these deaths happened more frequently than would be expected to be reported if the kid had all come into the clinic to be given a smiley-face sticker instead of a vaccine?  That would suggest that the vaccine was contributing to them.  

 

Quote:
 With practiced efficiency, after the eight deaths in Kashmir, a central team under Dr. N.K. Arora, who works for Inclen Trust, went to the state, visited the hospital and the homes of the dead children and issued a press release that there was no conclusive evidence that the deaths were due to the vaccine. Septicemia, pneumonia and meningitis were blamed, without explaining how children who were completely asymptomatic and well enough to be given routine preventive vaccination by healthcare personnel, could die of septicemia or pneumonia immediately afterwards. In other words, how could children gasping for breath with pneumonia or in shock due to septicemia and about to die in the next few hours be given Pentavalent vaccine by the healthcare personnel?

 

This would be more meaningful if he gave actual details.  He is not there, his hospital is a full day's journey from where this happened.   He writes "according to reports appearing in local newspapers," indicating that he does not have access to any of their medical records or any more information than available to the general public. How much detail did the articles go into?  Were these deaths actually eight perfectly healthy infants who died within hours, or is he jumping to that conclusion the way he jumps to the conclusion that any death following a vaccine can be blamed on the vaccine?  Google turned up one specific mention of a case where the death did happen hours later, but other than that, who knows, they could have been days or a week later, there is no way for us to know since he doesn't mention actual specifics or name sources. 

 

Septicimia, pneumonia, and meningitis are all illnesses that can take a baby from seemingly health to horribly sick in a shockingly short amount of time.  

 

Could there be something fishy going on with investigators covering it up?  Absolutely.  

 

Is there any reason I should trust this doctor who makes a huge illogical assumption right here in this article for us to see over the investigating team?  Not really that I can see. 

 

I'm not there an have no way of knowing what is really going on.  I just hope that the vaccine isn't killing kids, and I also hope that fear of the vaccine doesn't kill kids from diseases which they would have been vaccinated for if not for the panic.  One thing I am sure of is that there is going to be a lot of scrutiny of the vaccine, and if healthy children really are dropping like flies within hours of the vaccine and continue to do so, it will not go unnoticed.  

post #6 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post
 

 if healthy children really are dropping like flies within hours of the vaccine and continue to do so, it will not go unnoticed.  

The problem isn't that healthy kids are dropping like flies.

 

The problem is that a small subset of healthy kids is dropping like flies, and their reactions are either not recognized, or they are deemed collateral damage for a treatment that may have been unnecessary to begin with.

 

That subset has increased over the years, on roughly the same trajectory as the increase in the number of vaccines.

 

Health care providers have failed to recognize vaccine reactions when they happen, and consequently fail to report them.

 

Those reactions that do get acknowledged are covered up. Those that are compensated in vaccine court are hit with gag orders, with the threat of losing their settlement (which often goes to pay for the expensive care needed) if they tell anyone that they or their LO was injured by a vaccine.

 

So it really isn't accurate to say that "it will not go unnoticed."  Like other tragedies in the last century or so, people either pretend not to notice, or their minds are already set due to heavy propaganda.

post #7 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

The problem isn't that healthy kids are dropping like flies.

 

 

The problem discussed in this article is about healthy kids dropping like flies.  

 

The vaccine in question is a pentavalent vaccine that is relatively new.  It has been used in many parts of the world, but not in the US or (to my google-based-knowledge) other first world countries.  India started using it a few years ago, but it was only introduced in the state of Kashmir (where this story is from) about a year ago.  Since then, a number of deaths have been reported following vaccination, but the number of deaths does not look at all out of line from what one would expect by sheer coincidence in an area with high infant mortality (actually, it looks a bit lower than I would expect).  More seriously, there were 8 infant deaths in a period of a couple weeks at two hospitals in infants who had been recently vaccinated.  This triggered an investigation, and rightly so.  There were also apparently rumors going around that the vaccine was fake and the kids were given something else that killed them (officials all say this is untrue). 

 

The investigating team examined bodies, checked medical records, and talked to doctors and the families involved and concluded the eight deaths were all from other causes. They also checked hospital admission and morality rates from before and after the vaccine was brought to the area and found that neither had increased. 

 

The article says that the babies were perfectly healthy prior to the vaccine and died within hours of getting it.  The author is not anywhere near there though and says he is getting his information from local news reports, so I am not sure if either of these thing are actually true or if he is just making giant assumptions from partial news accounts the way he assumes that all deaths following the vaccine must be caused by it.  There seems to be a lot of paranoia about the vaccine now, and there will be watchful eyes, so if babies really have been going from healthy before the vaccine to dead a couple hours later, that will not go unnoticed.  

post #8 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post
 

 

The problem discussed in this article is about healthy kids dropping like flies.  

 

 

No, the article in question talks about 1+/100,000 dying after the vaccine.   How do you get "dropping like flies" from that?

 

When it is pointed out that there is an unacceptably high death rate, accusing the critics of paranoia, and putting words in our mouths ("dropping like flies!") does nothing to change the fact that there is an unacceptably high death rate after the vaccine.

post #9 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

No, the article in question talks about 1+/100,000 dying after the vaccine.   How do you get "dropping like flies" from that?

 

When it is pointed out that there is an unacceptably high death rate, accusing the critics of paranoia, and putting words in our mouths ("dropping like flies!") does nothing to change the fact that there is an unacceptably high death rate after the vaccine.

 

Sorry, my post was not clear, and I can see how the dropping like files could be read as dismissive, thought that is not how I intended it.  It was in reference to eight babies dying over a period of a couple weeks at two hospitals following the pentavalent vaccine.  This is an alarming number and triggered an investigation.  The investigation concluded the deaths were caused by other things that the vaccine. I was saying that there will still be a huge concern there, and that if the investigation was wrong/covering things up that it wouldn't be able to do so for long because if deaths continued to happen that frequently they would not go un-noticed.  Especially if the author's allegations that they were all perfectly healthy babies prior to the vaccine and dead within hours of getting it is true, though that is not clear since he does not give specific examples and is not actually involved - he is a full day's journey away and getting his information from local news stories, so may be making a lot of assumptions. 

 

The 1/100,000 rate is certainly not dropping like flies.  It actually seems rather low considering that at their high infant mortality rate more than one baby dies per hundred thousand every day.  You would expect by sheer chance a few of those to happen in the days to week after vaccination from babies who were incubating a disease already at the time of the vaccine or who caught something shortly after hat ended up killing them.  This is evidence that a lot needs to be done to improve the health of infants and children, primarily the herculean task of ending poverty, but vaccination and improving access to health care helps.  It is not evidence that the vaccine is causing deaths. It is absolutely preposterous for the author to crunch the numbers a if not even just a small percentage of deaths but that every single death reported following the vaccine must be caused by it.  What, so somehow he vaccine manages to stop all other causes of deaths that were contributing to India's high infant mortality rate (which used to be a lot higher even, not that long ago) for a period after its administration?  

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