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Can you help me interpret these scores?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

My daughter is 7 3/4.  She has ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and terrible eyesight.  She's had glasses since she turned 3 and now wears bifocals, and needs a new pair (hopefully will get this within the next month as I just got vision benefits through my new job).  She was tested with the WPSII at about age 5 and her composite IQ was around 135, but the tester thought she might test higher in the future if she would, for example, spend less time under the talbe refusing to cooperate.


As part of her re-evaluation for her IEP, the school psychologist administered the RAIS IQ test on her.  The day she did the test, my daughter came home with a fever of 101, so it was possibly the worst day EVER for this, but the psych said she didn't seem ill at the time.  So, ok, then.


Her verbal IQ was 147, which is more than 3 standard deviations above the norm (I'm not sure how closely these scores compare to other IQ tests).  This is par for the course for the child who could say 500 words when she was 18 months old. 


Her non-verbal IQ was 99, so obviously a big difference.


What I'd like to know is, could her vision impact her non-verbal IQ? Is the huge discrepancy related to her ADHD or SPD? 


I'm pretty sure it's non-verbals scores that going to sink her on the COGAT, which means she'll never ever ever get into the gifted program in our district, despite her verbal skills and being advanced in all academic areas. If we lived half a mile south, she'd be probably be a shoe-in in the other district's identical program because they admit based on individual subtest scores.

Edited by Aufilia - 10/22/13 at 9:45pm
post #2 of 13

I can't interpret the scores for you, but such a wide disparity makes me wonder about a learning disability.  If I were you I would have her privately tested to see what might be going on and get some expert recommendations. 


The other avenue to pursue regarding the school is to get her classified as 2E (twice exceptional= gifted, plus a learning disability) by your district.  It's illegal for the school to discriminate based on a disability, so your dd might be admitted to the gifted program in the area that doesn't involve her disability. 


Go to wrightslaw.com for ideas on how to pursue the scond option.

post #3 of 13

Can you find out whether they did the verbal part first and the non-verbal part second? Could it be that the fever was rising and she was getting confused and exhausted?

post #4 of 13
Thread Starter 
Our gifted program doesn't seem to believe that they are discriminating based on a disability as long as they provide accommodations during testing. Seriously, I know other people with 2E kids who are plenty smart enough to get in, but they don't.

That's a good question about what they did first. She had the WPPSI about 3 years ago and her scores weren't SO varied, though there was one subtest that was lower than the rest.

She's also had a full developmental evaluation, 2 years ago. The waiting list for a new one is like 9 months long. I'm wondering if I could possibly talk the school into doing a more detailed IQ test because the RAIS seems to provide only limited data plus, well, she WAS sick.
post #5 of 13

Could be Non-Verbal Learning Disorder, could be a bad test day. I have one (now in 7th grade) who had a tentative NVLD label after testing with the WISC in 3rd grade, but she was not super cooperative and we never pursued it. She does struggle with Math (although not as much with Geometry as most other aspects of Math), so I think there is a probable basis for the diagnosis, but she loves Science. She's in a charter school with an Environmental Science focus and she loves that and has straight A+s in Science, but works really hard for her B in Math. There are many square pegs in the school and lots of kids have IEPs for one reason or another. I offered to pursue one for her since her best friend in school has one and has some accommodations, but dd1 emphatically did not want one so a hard-won B is fine in Math. 

post #6 of 13
Thread Starter 

I looked at NVLD as it popped up when I was searching for information on IQ score discrepancies, and a lot of the qualities listed for NVLD kids do fit DD, except that she doesn't have trouble with reading comprehension (far and away reading comprehension is one of her top skills) or math, or, well, anything academic. But, she is very inflexible, a concrete thinker, lacks common sense, and definitely has trouble with non-verbal communication (not on paper, in a test situation--she can interpret facial expressions in pictures really well, but in real life she has a very hard time with that).

post #7 of 13

Sounds like a neat, complex kid!


A lot of people run into the grey area issues like you're seeing for gifted program admission.  It's a shame as these rules seem to ignore the whole child, something that an ideal gifted program would be tuned to serve.


We got a lot of information from the NEPSY-II in teasing apart some of the social learning, visuospatial skills, and other difficulties.  We discovered, for instance, that she can read emotions of faces quite well, but scored in the 0.4 percentile for recognizing faces.  Accommodating just this piece -- helping her learn the faces of her peers -- has smoothed over so many difficulties.  It also helped us tease apart the fact that the handwriting problems were not fine motor difficulties, but visual processing difficulties.  In our case, I felt as though this test told me more about my child than the subtest spread of the IQ test.  You might ask if this is a test the school can give in the IEP re-evaluation process to help round out the information from the IQ test.

post #8 of 13
Are you in Seattle proper? I have children in that program, and honestly I don't think you'd want her to be in it. It is great for a lot of gifted personalities, but terrible for ADHD- acceleration is the main thing, and the class sizes are larger than most other class sizes in the district(the district considers those kids to be privileged and not need extra adults). Have you considered more project based/alternative programs?
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 

beanma, thanks for pointing out NVLD.  I wasn't familiar with it but aside from the academic criteria, it fits DD quite well and I'm going to discuss it with her psych on Friday.  In our full eval and more recently with her new psych we've gone through, "Well, she's kinda Aspergersy, but not quite...." yet I do keep thinking that ADHD isn't the "whole" story because while the ADHD meds have helped in many ways, they haven't done as much as hoped.


hempmama, we're not in Seattle, we're in Lake Wa SD.  We're on the waiting list for two alternate public programs but she's so far down she'll never get into those, really. And my stbx is not going to agree to private school if it costs him money, yet the only way we could afford it would by with a scholarship, for which his income is included when calculating need. 


Frankly I find the elitist focus of the local gifted programs astounding. They are not looking for gifted children here as much as they are looking for stereotypes. 


geofizz, I checked and she's had at least parts of the NEPSY before, during her full developmental eval, though I don't think they did all the parts of the NEPSY.  She's had the BRIEF, the WPPSI, and a bunch of other stuff.  I wish the school psych had done the WISC on her instead of the RAIS but they don't seem to want to do another IQ test even though the results on the RAIS were so extreme.  I requested her CogAT scores from last year to see if they will show a similar verbal-nonverbal discrepancy, but I have not yet gotten a reply from the TAG program office.

post #10 of 13

Good luck Aufilia. It's tricky having a divergent learner. Certainly worth checking out NVLD with the new psych.


Although we didn't pursue an IEP, I do think my dd1 has some learning differences, possibly NVLD and/or ADD, that keep her from doing as well in Math as she can in other subjects, but it's not so bad that it's worth it to her to get a diagnosis. I think she really does not want any label she doesn't happily give herself (geek, weird, artist, dancer, etc). She also really struggles with organization (the ADD portion) — her room is a hazmat site, and now she's lost her planner.


However, her strengths are in big picture ideas, narrative and nuggets of info. She's a fountain of  factoids, so it's really easy for her to remember Science and Social Studies facts and she loves to read in English. She's also a pretty gifted visual artist. Still needs to refine some technique, but has a great sense of movement, purpose, and feeling in her drawings that I was severely lacking at her age although I went on to pursue graphic design.


Best of luck!

post #11 of 13

did not read everything, wanted to respond anyway. 


your DD is a bit like mine. Mine is farsighted (word?) at 8 dpt and squints (?), does not have 3-d-vision (so, no 3-d movies for us ;) ). She has ADHD and sensory processing problems. 


She had a quite similar testing, very gifted verbally, but one part (I don't remember which though) was like 83 or something - more in the range of a disability. They said they could not say if it was a problem of her vision or her working speed, (I don't know what it's called in english) - this part is frequently low in kids with ADHD - I have learned, so they cannot really count her IQ test. 


She has an appointment at the gifted program in november, so we'll see...

post #12 of 13

Verbal in IQ tests usually refers to skills related to reading/writing/word study.  In verbal, your child is given reading comprehension questions, analogies, etc.

Nonverbal in IQ tests usually refers to skills related to math/logic skills.  In nonverbal, your child is tested on patterns with symbols, math word problems, etc.

The IQ test is not supposed to test skills as much as it tests a child's ability to use higher thinking skills. So, for example, many of the comprehension questions will ask a child to infer. 


If your child had a fever, it probably hurt his/her ability to think clearly.  You have the right to ask for her to be retested. I would not see the first test as conclusive and I do think that, if you discuss your child's fever with the administrators, they will agree. The problem would be in arranging a place and time to retake the test -- as there are deadlines for administration in each school district. 


In the meantime, give your child exposure to math patterning (sequencing, etc.) and problem-solving.


Good luck! I hope this helps.


post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 

Another post reminded me that I'd posted here about this issue, and it might be helpful to someone else in the future to post an update.


I ended up paying out of pocket for a well-recommended pediatric neurologist to give DD the WISC-IV and WIAT-III.  Her "Verbal Comprehension", "Perceptual Reasoning" and "Working Memory" index composites were all within an 8-point range.  Her processing speed index score was lower but that's not unusual for very bright children.  


So, I'm chalking up the weird variation in scores to her being sick or getting impatient with the test.  The school psych did comment at one point that she felt that Vivian rushed through the non-verbal portion of the RAIS.  (Why the school psych didn't do something about this at the time, I don't know. Probably because she was only giving the test to check off a checky box on a form, not because anyone has any intention of providing reasonable academic acceleration.)

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