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California AB 2109 law - Page 2

post #21 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree that vaccinating is comparable to breast feeding.  One involves a risk and directly effects the mother, the other doesn't. For example, mastitis can require hospitalization, surgery and antibiotics. All affect the mother. 

 

Breastfeeding usually only protects against diseases for a few months.  An unvaccinated breast fed child is MUCH more likely to get measles or polio or diptheria or chickenpox or Hib or pertussis than a vaccinated formula fed one if exposed, for example.  

 

I don't care how healthy you eat or how much you exercise, an unvaccinated child is almost guaranteed to get measles if exposed. Breastfed or not. 

 

The fewer number of cases of pertussis going around in a community, the less likely a person is to get exposed.  That's how herd immunity works.  The pertussis vaccine isn't as effective as others, but studies have consistently shown that unvaccinated children are many many times more likely to get pertussis than vaccinated ones. 

post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree that vaccinating is comparable to breast feeding.  One involves a risk and directly effects the mother, the other doesn't. For example, mastitis can require hospitalization, surgery and antibiotics. All affect the mother. 

 

Breastfeeding usually only protects against diseases for a few months.  An unvaccinated breast fed child is MUCH more likely to get measles or polio or diptheria or chickenpox or Hib or pertussis than a vaccinated formula fed one if exposed, for example.  

 

I don't care how healthy you eat or how much you exercise, an unvaccinated child is almost guaranteed to get measles if exposed. Breastfed or not. 

 

The fewer number of cases of pertussis going around in a community, the less likely a person is to get exposed.  That's how herd immunity works.  The pertussis vaccine isn't as effective as others, but studies have consistently shown that unvaccinated children are many many times more likely to get pertussis than vaccinated ones. 

 

Actually the "breastfeeding only protects for a few months" chestnut has been addressed here before specifically with Hib and the protection dependent on the duration of breastfeeding. I don't have the study link, but I know many of the other members here have referenced it before. I think personally that Jack Newman's observation that breastmilk does not automatically turn into water at the minute a baby turns 12 months is apt. The white cells, immune factors, are all still available in it past the one year mark.

 

As for pertussis, *anecdote alert* one of my unvaccinated children got it (from his UTD father) and the other didn't. Yet, both live in the same house. We got a firsthand view of exposure not equalling infection. 

 

The proposed law sounds similar to the hoop jumping for a CO here in Australia. We had to sign a form that we'd discussed the risks of not vaccinating with a GP (who also had to sign it) and then file it with Medicare. In our case, it wasn't much of a lecture besides, "What are your concerns?" and then a bit of discussion and the GP conceding that he could see our point and in his opinion, he'd only strongly recommend a handful of the vaccines on the schedule anyway. I can see how it might be problematic though in states where GPs will refuse to have unvaccinated children as patients. 

post #23 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by japonica View Post
 

 

Actually the "breastfeeding only protects for a few months" chestnut has been addressed here before specifically with Hib and the protection dependent on the duration of breastfeeding. I don't have the study link, but I know many of the other members here have referenced it before. I think personally that Jack Newman's observation that breastmilk does not automatically turn into water at the minute a baby turns 12 months is apt. The white cells, immune factors, are all still available in it past the one year mark.

 

As for pertussis, *anecdote alert* one of my unvaccinated children got it (from his UTD father) and the other didn't. Yet, both live in the same house. We got a firsthand view of exposure not equalling infection. 

 

The proposed law sounds similar to the hoop jumping for a CO here in Australia. We had to sign a form that we'd discussed the risks of not vaccinating with a GP (who also had to sign it) and then file it with Medicare. In our case, it wasn't much of a lecture besides, "What are your concerns?" and then a bit of discussion and the GP conceding that he could see our point and in his opinion, he'd only strongly recommend a handful of the vaccines on the schedule anyway. I can see how it might be problematic though in states where GPs will refuse to have unvaccinated children as patients. 

 

It's not that it turns into water, but at some point it does stops providing sufficient immunity which is why I said a breastfed unvaccinated child is more likely to get a VPD if exposed than a formula fed vaccinated one.  I think we can all agree that a kindergartner is not going to be immune to VPDs from their mother's breast milk anymore.  


Edited by teacozy - 11/1/13 at 9:34am
post #24 of 46
Unless they are still nursing. wink1.gif As a mama who puts the extended in EBF, I think neither/both of you are right. Mothers IMO, seem to make antibodies & transfer in a dynamic way. Like based on what the mama is currently exposed to . . . The issue is that many of today's mamas have weak or non-existent immunity to the theoretically VPDs b/c they have likely never had them & the Vaxes for them are not kept up to date . . .
post #25 of 46
Non-vaccinating parents have more provider options than vaccinating ones. Some see chiropractors, some see naturopaths, and still others see pediatricians and family physicians who tolerate their choices and provide care for them regardless.

But Well Child Visits are the lifeblood of any pediatric practice. So how objective will pediatricians be if their counseling could make or break future clientele? I know, I know. Leave it to me to point out the COIs. ;-)
post #26 of 46

Why do you think non-vaxing parents have more provider options?  I'm pretty sure I could see a chiropractor or naturopath if I were so inclined.

post #27 of 46
Point well taken, but as a vaxxer, you will ALSO have to see someone who administers vaccines. Some naturopaths might (???), but overall, non-vaxxers can opt out of the conventional pediatric WBVs.
post #28 of 46

Vaccinations can be obtained from a public health clinic by a nurse or even, in my state, a medical assistant or a pharmacy tech in any random pharmacy. You do not have to establish care anywhere.

post #29 of 46

Here is the new vaccine exemption form for California, to be used for new exemptions starting January 1, 2014.

http://eziz.org/assets/docs/CDPH-8262.pdf

 

Most California students with an exemption already in place will NOT need to use the new form, unless they are advancing to 7th grade.

"All students newly admitted to a California school, kindergarten through 12th grade, students advancing to 7th grade, and children newly admitted to a childcare facility, who wish to be exempt from one or more required immunizations because of their personal beliefs must provide this form to their school or childcare facility.

Children transferring from one grade school in California to another school in California, and not starting kindergarten or the 7th grade for the first time, do not need to provide a new exemption form. Exemptions from the prior schools should be part of the records transferred to the new schools."

http://www.immunizeca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PH13-051-New-PBE.pdf

 

I disagree with the law because theoretically, a parent could go to 100 health care providers and still not get the required signature. There is nothing in  the law requiring any health care provider to sign the form.

 

I also do not think that parents are legally required to agree to the following statement on the form:

"An unimmunized student and the student’s contacts at school and home are at greater risk of becoming ill with a vaccine-preventable disease."

I read the text of AB 2109, and I do not see where a parent is required to agree to that statement.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml;jsessionid=f80932d87a8e7fbfd7738d9d4a6e 

 

I might cross out that part, or, instead of using the form, AB 2109 allows "a letter signed by a health care practitioner that includes all information and attestations included on the form." Or, a parent can write above that statement, "I acknowledge that I have read the following statements made by the CDPH." (That way, they are not agreeing to the statements).


Edited by ma2two - 11/8/13 at 9:18am
post #30 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Vaccinations can be obtained from a public health clinic by a nurse or even, in my state, a medical assistant or a pharmacy tech in any random pharmacy. You do not have to establish care anywhere.


 



I don't know of any state that allows small children to get vaccinated at pharmacies . . . .

I share the concerns about doctors refusing to sign off on the form. Also, federal law already requires providers to give information on vaccine risks and benefits, so the law is redundant. For those few parents who never see physicians, I have serious issues with the government mandating any kind of paid, contractual relationship with a private entity.
post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Vaccinations can be obtained from a public health clinic by a nurse or even, in my state, a medical assistant or a pharmacy tech in any random pharmacy. You do not have to establish care anywhere.


 



I don't know of any state that allows small children to get vaccinated at pharmacies . . . .

I share the concerns about doctors refusing to sign off on the form. Also, federal law already requires providers to give information on vaccine risks and benefits, so the law is redundant. For those few parents who never see physicians, I have serious issues with the government mandating any kind of paid, contractual relationship with a private entity.

You can get a two year old and up a flu shot at Walgreens and at other places- it is on their website- sorry I can't copy & paste it right now but you can check most places have their policy right on their sites- I consider a two year old a small child- under two Walgreens will give them flu mist.


ETA-https://www.walgreens.com/pharmacy/immunization/immunization_index.jsp

It does state get your child ready for school- that can be age 5 in my state

http://www.walgreens.com/topic/vaccination/tdap_whooping_cough.jsp. If you look it mentions age here and at the end it says to make an appointment
They have for other vaccines as well
Edited by serenbat - 11/5/13 at 5:48pm
post #32 of 46

From the link you posted (https://www.walgreens.com/pharmacy/immunization/immunization_index.jsp):

 

"Walgreens immunization-trained pharmacists and Healthcare Clinic nurse practitioners can administer a wide range of CDC-recommended immunizations and vaccines for adolescents, adults and seniors."

 

Adolescents, adults, and seniors.  Not children.

post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post

From the link you posted (https://www.walgreens.com/pharmacy/immunization/immunization_index.jsp):

"Walgreens immunization-trained pharmacists and Healthcare Clinic nurse practitioners can administer a wide range of CDC-recommended immunizations and vaccines for adolescents, adults and seniors."

Adolescents, adults, and seniors.  Not children.


Did you look at the other link? it says under7 there

I also called my local Walgreens and they can do all that my 5 year old would need- they said they do 2 and up at my local for all they offer - maybe different in CA
post #34 of 46
CVS - also in my area does 18 months and up http://www.minuteclinic.com/flu/.

Here they use the word CHILDREN http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/vaccination/


http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/vaccination/dtap/


MinuteClinic practitioners treat children 18 months and older, and can provide the recommended vaccinations at 18 months and 4 - 6 years. First doses, which are given at 2, 4 and 6 months of age, are not available at MinuteClinic.
post #35 of 46

The minute clinics at CVS and the clinics at Walgreens are staffed by nurse practicioners.  They are actual medical offices and patients are seen by medical professionals (I realize a pharmacist is also a medical professional).

post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post

The minute clinics at CVS and the clinics at Walgreens are staffed by nurse practicioners.  They are actual medical offices and patients are seen by medical professionals (I realize a pharmacist is also a medical professional).


CVS & Walgreens still call them pharmacies and refer to them as pharmacies - iRL where I live an you have an emergency and or issue, they don't take you to a pharmacy for treatment- they simply are not viewed as "medical offices". The pharmacist and those who work in that section at my CVS(which I use) also don't view it as a "medical office".
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

CVS & Walgreens still call them pharmacies and refer to them as pharmacies - iRL where I live an you have an emergency and or issue, they don't take you to a pharmacy for treatment- they simply are not viewed as "medical offices". The pharmacist and those who work in that section at my CVS(which I use) also don't view it as a "medical office".

Well you may not view it as a medical clinic but CVS's Minute Clinic and the equivalent in Walgreens are NOT the same thing as the pharmacy and they are basically a low level urgent care center within the store. Not all locations contain these medical services so its possible that you haven't seen one which would explain your confusion. Their services include:

http://m.minuteclinic.com/mt/www.minuteclinic.com/services/

http://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/healthcare-clinic/our-services.jsp?stop_mobi=yes
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post


Well you may not view it as a medical clinic but CVS's Minute Clinic and the equivalent in Walgreens are NOT the same thing as the pharmacy and they are basically a low level urgent care center within the store. Not all locations contain these medical services so its possible that you haven't seen one which would explain your confusion. Their services include:

http://m.minuteclinic.com/mt/www.minuteclinic.com/services/

http://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/healthcare-clinic/our-services.jsp?stop_mobi=yes

sorry but you did not read what I wrote - I did not say I viewed or did not view it as a "medical clinic"  I said office, that is a different word, different meaning - in my GP's office I can get services that I can not at a CVS or a Walgreens, they also are not the same as an urgent care either, that is why they send you there from the CVS because they do not do the exact same, and agents cares also can not do a lot that medical offices can do, they just sent you to the ER when they can't help you - the fact remains you seem far more interested in going after me (seen this before too!) rather than dealing with the issue of this thread, I simply responded to Turquesa statement - YES, pharmacies do vaccines, and on "children" - they do in my state and things are different depending on the state and what is allowed :thumb 

post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

sorry but you did not read what I wrote - I did not say I viewed or did not view it as a "medical clinic"  I said office, that is a different word, different meaning - in my GP's office I can get services that I can not at a CVS or a Walgreens, they also are not the same as an urgent care either, that is why they send you there from the CVS because they do not do the exact same, and agents cares also can not do a lot that medical offices can do, they just sent you to the ER when they can't help you - the fact remains you seem far more interested in going after me (seen this before too!) rather than dealing with the issue of this thread, I simply responded to Turquesa statement - YES, pharmacies do vaccines, and on "children" - they do in my state and things are different depending on the state and what is allowed thumb.gif  

Sheesh are you always this defensive? Pardon my use of the word "clinic" instead of "office" but I'm pretty sure one could still understand my point.

Did you read my entire post? What I was trying to point out to you is that those CVS and Walgreens locations that contain a type of medical clinic DO NOT consider that portion of the store as the "pharmacy" as you claim. Yes there are locations that offer flu shots and other vaccines but that one service does NOT mean that the store contains a medical clinic.

I have no interest in "going after" you Seren, just wanted to make sure that you were aware that these self contained medical clinics offer much more than vaccines.
post #40 of 46

It all has to do with the individuals performing the actions not the locations in which they perform the action.  Pharmacies don't vaccinate anyone as they are buildings and business not people.  Pharmacists do vaccinate individuals however only adults.  Nurse practitioners do vaccinations on children and in some instances they do those vaccinations inside pharmacies (while serving in clinics that are located inside the pharmacy).  Yes Pharmacies that contain medical clinics still call themselves pharmacies because that is the bulk of their work.  But it doesn't change that it is medical clinic staffed by a nurse practitioner.  I received treatment for a UTI inside a pharmacy clinic at one point.  That doesn't mean that pharmacies now treat UTIs.  It was a nurse practitioner who just happened to work inside a pharmacy for convenience.

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