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Non-Vaxing and Vaxing Parents - Page 2

post #21 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeItSnape 

 

It's hard to explain my viewpoint, but when my friend who said people better vax their kids to protect hers, it sort of made me a little mad. Because to me, that's your lack of faith in the vaccines you're giving your kid to protect them.

 

I am all for havign your kids exposed to certain things, like my 'illnesses' because THAT builds up your immunity far better than a series of shots. I got ALL of my chicken pox vaccines, and guess what? Still had them. Why was I given somethin that obviously didn't work?

 

That's my point and even my mother said, well if I gave her these shots, why wasn't she protected against it.

 

It isn't a lack of faith, it's just an understanding of how vaccines work. No vaccine is 100 percent effective. Maybe my child is in that small percentage of children whose vaccine didn't take. Statistically it's not likely but it is possible.  If diseases aren't circulating around then we don't have to test it. 

 

Doesn't your example of your children getting chickenpox despite getting the vaccine illustrate this point exactly? Sometimes it just doesn't work. Even with "natural" infections the immunity doesn't always take.  But to argue that the chickenpox vaccine hasn't worked in general is just not being in touch with reality.  It is actually rare to see a child with chickenpox these days. That is such a huge difference even just from when I was a kid and I am only in my mid 20s.  No increase in sanitation can be attributed to that, sorry. 

 

"Furthermore, we as a race survived for a LONG time before vaccines were ever thought of." 

 

We as a race survived a LONG time before we had running water, electricity, cars, plumbing, air conditioning, antibiotics, and anesthesia too.  What's your point? you don't think these things improve our quality of life or lifespan?  We are living over twice as long as we used to.  Do we really want to go back to the days when people had 12-15 children in hopes that at least a few would survive into adulthood? Do we want to go back to the (not very distant) time when one grave was filled with 4 or 5 children all dead within a couple days from diptheria?  Where getting a simple infection often meant death because there was no way to treat it? Where women died from "childbirth fever"? Where a child getting a compound fracture oftentimes meant death? Where there was a 30 percent chance that your child would die if they contracted smallpox? Where children lived in iron lungs or were crippled unable to walk from Polio? Does that seems like a better way to live? 


Edited by teacozy - 11/18/13 at 9:48am
post #22 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

 

 

We as a race survived a LONG time before we had running water, electricity, cars, plumbing, air conditioning, antibiotics, and anesthesia too.  What's your point? you don't think these things improve our quality of life or lifespan?  We are living over twice as long as we used to.  Do we really want to go back to the days when people had 12-15 children in hopes that at least a few would survive into adulthood? Do we want to go back to the (not very distant) time when one grave was filled with 4 or 5 children all dead within a couple days from diptheria?  Where getting a simple infection often meant death because there was no way to treat it? Where women died from "childbirth fever"? Where a child getting a compound fracture oftentimes meant death? Where there was a 30 percent chance that your child would die if they contracted smallpox? Where children lived in iron lungs or were crippled unable to walk from Polio? Does that seems like a better way to live? Really?

Well this is my point! We are soon to face a massive tipping point, according to those scientist who say the over use may be our down fall - there are many source to find this - here is just one

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/814533?src=rss

 

predictions by some are even the simply broken bone that requires minimal surgery will no longer be able to be preformed http://qz.com/148395/why-americans-and-europeans-may-soon-start-dying-of-infections-like-its-1905-again/

 

and this just came out today

http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/health-and-fitness/48003-american-academy-of-pediatrics-advises-physicians-to-use-antibiotics-judiciously.html

post #23 of 110
I think the point about antibiotics is that many parents throw antibiotics at every single cold, demanding rx from the ped. Most families I know have their kids on antibiotics for ear infections and simple colds at least 5 times a year. Research warns about this kind if overuse clearly. And those parents don't worry about potentially creating superbugs that will leave sll of us vulnerable to bacterial infections yet again. In several cases I was mocked by mothers for not getting an antibiotic for my children's colds. It was insane!
post #24 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by nia82 View Post

I think the point about antibiotics is that many parents throw antibiotics at every single cold, demanding rx from the ped. Most families I know have their kids on antibiotics for ear infections and simple colds at least 5 times a year. Research warns about this kind if overuse clearly. And those parents don't worry about potentially creating superbugs that will leave sll of us vulnerable to bacterial infections yet again. In several cases I was mocked by mothers for not getting an antibiotic for my children's colds. It was insane!

 

When I was a child, I was given antibiotics every three weeks, then had them for two, then had tonsillitis again, got them again. For YEARS. By age nine I was resistant to penicillin. They should have taken my tonsils out way earlier, because after that, I hardly needed them again.

 

DS's ped didn't prescribe them unless she had done a swab and was sure it was a bacterial infection that needed antibiotics, so he hardly got them. When he had meningitis, he was well in the morning complained about a headache by lunch time and was unconscious a few hours later in hospital. The antibiotics worked a MIRACLE. Who knows if they would have worked as well if they had been over-prescribed to him for years? Sometimes you REALLY need them, QUICKLY and can't afford a resistance. 

post #25 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

 

When I was a child, I was given antibiotics every three weeks, then had them for two, then had tonsillitis again, got them again. For YEARS. By age nine I was resistant to penicillin. 

That is not how antibiotic resistance works. YOU don't become resistant to penicillin, the bacteria does. 

post #26 of 110

The problem is that today, yes, pediatricians and doctors DO prescribe antibiotics without even doing a swab/culture. It's a very big problem in the world. I know it both from the US and Germany. The frequent exposure to antibiotics creates resilient superbugs. Antibiotics can be found in your bodily secretions and make it into sewage. Animals are fed antibiotics on a daily basis (mass produce, the nasty "farms" out there, dairy cows, etc). The massive overuse is a really, really big danger.

Antibiotics are great, and I want them to maintain their efficacy. But they will be worthless soon with the current overuse. Imagine bacterial meningitis once all strains are resistant; or bacterial pneumonia and so on. The kidney infections I had would have been my death (bacterial, septic).

 

Examples I know personally: family friend got sick, goes to urgent care and says can't afford to be sick, gets a rx for Zithromax. Ear infections are auto-tickets to antibiotics. I know of a case of an ear infection that didn't clear after amoxicillin, so the child was given another, then another, then another antibiotic. It didn't clear yet the doctor refused a culture or close examination to see whether it was fungal at that point. That callousness puts all of us in danger. EineMutti, your doctor is rare. In the US I always insisted on cultures and they fought me and looked at me as if I had ten heads and reluctantly agreed as I wouldn't relent. That was for me only (recurrent kidney infections), the kids luckily didn't have any so far. Even when we had our first case of pinkeye I was immediately given anti eye drops by my MD family member while I insisted on trying euphrasia eye drops first which cleared the infection within 24 hours.

post #27 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by nia82 View Post
 

The problem is that today, yes, pediatricians and doctors DO prescribe antibiotics without even doing a swab/culture. It's a very big problem in the world. I know it both from the US and Germany. The frequent exposure to antibiotics creates resilient superbugs. Antibiotics can be found in your bodily secretions and make it into sewage. Animals are fed antibiotics on a daily basis (mass produce, the nasty "farms" out there, dairy cows, etc). The massive overuse is a really, really big danger.

Antibiotics are great, and I want them to maintain their efficacy. But they will be worthless soon with the current overuse. Imagine bacterial meningitis once all strains are resistant; or bacterial pneumonia and so on. The kidney infections I had would have been my death (bacterial, septic).

 

Examples I know personally: family friend got sick, goes to urgent care and says can't afford to be sick, gets a rx for Zithromax. Ear infections are auto-tickets to antibiotics. I know of a case of an ear infection that didn't clear after amoxicillin, so the child was given another, then another, then another antibiotic. It didn't clear yet the doctor refused a culture or close examination to see whether it was fungal at that point. That callousness puts all of us in danger. EineMutti, your doctor is rare. In the US I always insisted on cultures and they fought me and looked at me as if I had ten heads and reluctantly agreed as I wouldn't relent. That was for me only (recurrent kidney infections), the kids luckily didn't have any so far. Even when we had our first case of pinkeye I was immediately given anti eye drops by my MD family member while I insisted on trying euphrasia eye drops first which cleared the infection within 24 hours.

 

She was an excellent doctor. I really miss her, she has retired now and we have moved to the UK. Antibiotics overuse scares me, too, I totally agree with you. Because so often, people NEED them to stay alive, they are one of the greatest inventions ever, they should be used as little as possible and only when there is proof that they are really needed. Or when it is too risky to wait for proof (second time my boy had viral meningitis, but was given antibiotics anyway, was taken off as soon as they saw in the liquor that it was viral, not bacterial. Risk to wait for the cultures would have been too big given his history, but that is rare and does not go for ear infections or simple colds.) In our local GP surgery, there is a large poster saying that antibiotics do NOT work for the virus colds, so please don't just demand them. In Germany, it has got slightly better since the reunification I find, but that might just be my impression.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post
 

That is not how antibiotic resistance works. YOU don't become resistant to penicillin, the bacteria does. 

 

That is true. Especially because it was the same infection over and over and over again.

 

Off topic, sorry. 

post #28 of 110

I was also on maintenance Abx as a child, first for chronic ear infections caused 100% by a chronic indoor tobacco using BSN (my sweet mama). She didn't believe in opening windows, she just kept her LOs on Abx . . . 

 

Then after a short break, I was put back on them for normal levels of teen acne. Again, daily, for YEARS. We have moved away from these policies, but they are still very very overused.

post #29 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post
 

That is not how antibiotic resistance works. YOU don't become resistant to penicillin, the bacteria does. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

 

 

That is true. Especially because it was the same infection over and over and over again.

 

Off topic, sorry. 

well you must be the first and only one http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-is-antibiotic-immunit

 

The concept of antibiotic immunity is a misnomer that can lead people to believe that they may become "immune" or "resistant" to an antibiotic if they take it too frequently or inappropriately. This notion stems from a misunderstanding in the general public of the concept of antibiotic resistance.


Edited by serenbat - 11/18/13 at 4:45pm
post #30 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post
We have moved away from these policies, but they are still very very overused.

SADLY we haven't moved too fast (maybe because we can't physically move fast anymore?)  - http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/11/maps-antibiotics-prescriptions-obesity-states

post #31 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post
 

I was also on maintenance Abx as a child, first for chronic ear infections caused 100% by a chronic indoor tobacco using BSN (my sweet mama). She didn't believe in opening windows, she just kept her LOs on Abx . . . 

 

I grew up between ashtrays, too. Until the reunification, I didn't know ONE person who didn't smoke. Not one! Can't have been good for my health, though I was the only one in the family who had tonsillitis that often. 

post #32 of 110

OT lucky me only mom smoked and only outside. But hey in the 2000s in college pretty much everyone smoked.... My sister had a couple bouts of pneumonia but I never really had anything bad. Even mumps was a walk in the park. I was on antis maybe once for strep and it was gross (you know Perlocombinsaft). ;)

 

Dina, that's crazy.

post #33 of 110
Going back to an earlier point in the thread and the statement by several vaccinating parents (including myself) that they vaccinate not only to protect their child as best they fell they can, but also to play their part in society.

Some responses suggested an action cannot be altruistic if there is no risk in it. I'd like to respond to that.

First, while I am confident vaccines are very safe, I would always acknowledge that they (along with any medicine) do carry a risk - however small. I'm sure mindfully vaccinating parents would all agree with that - we've just decided that risk is small enough to be acceptable for the benefits.

But secondly, even without any risk, I think actions can still be partly altruistic. Something which doesn't only benefit you, but also others does not have to be dangerous to be a good thing to do.

I think my best example is wearing seatbelts in flight in airplanes. Low risk, but if unexpected turbulence occurs much safer for you and all the people around you..... So partly done for self protection, and partly to protect others.
post #34 of 110

I agree with that. Just thinking of others at the same time as thinking of your own makes it partly and act of altruism. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post


Do you live in some utopia? Here in the real world my child IS my own responsibility. Society doesn't help me out- I am left to do it. My child is sick at 1AM I do, no one comes in and helps me out.

I am proudly one that EM is talking about!

In the real world where I live society is not looking out for my child, really quiet the opposite!

 

 

Not utopia, but Europe. And YES, people ARE looking out for my child and always have. If my child is very sick, there is free hospital treatment which has saved his life many times. When he lost all of his abilities, there was a neurological rehab centre that helped him get them back. When he wasn't where his peers where at nursery and school, he got a special needs status and he still has 1:1 support for certain things at school which are paid by the tax payer. I am a tax payer, too, so I pay for other people's needs and they pay for mine. I am proud to say that I live in a society, not a perfect one, but one where people look out for each other and if you need help, you get it. 

 

The measles party comment wasn't about a specific event, but they are being organised, even some on here, some on FB. They are the ultimate act of selfishness when it comes to vaccinations. My child would have got encephalitis or meningitis from them. He wouldn't be at a higher risk or something, he would have GOT it. And spreading a disease deliberately (no amount of personal hygiene could be safe enough) just because your own child has a good immune system is the opposite of altruism. 

 

Deliberate exposure and spreading of any illness should be heavily punished. Just my humble opinion. 

post #35 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

 

Deliberate exposure and spreading of any illness should be heavily punished. Just my humble opinion. 

So how should you be punished?

 

According to your own accounts, you deliberately delayed your child's vaccine and is still not up to day (by Europe standards) - not to mention even if you only got your child up to date, they would not be if you choose to come to the US.

 

Look the other thread currently on pertussis, we know that is not 100%, we know people are lead to believe it is, Drs don't always treat for it since IF you were vaccinated, the assumption is you can't have it, this goes for other VPD as well.

 

So every time a vaccinated child, who does have the VPD goes out in public they can spread this as well to- they don't get punished in your world but others get heavily punished? And nothing should happen to you because your under vaccinated child right now can spread VPD to others- correct? As long as others are heavily punished that's OK with you?

 

Same go for the common cold? That can kill too - those who have to go to work and spread the cold around, do they get heavily punished too?

 

You have a 100% guarantee your child will get  encephalitis or meningitis - correct? Yet nothing should happen to you when your child uses (over uses??) antibiotics  right again? What about the flu and those who don't get the vaccine or even those who do, YET get another strain of it and go out into the public - a deliberate act, do they get heavily punished as well?

 

What do you plan to do when you child has to interact with adults that are not up to date (nor do they need to be)? When your child grows up, has sex with someone who has a disease that is not a VPD, are you going after them too or only after the VPD ones? SInce HPV only protects certain strains, will that mean the other strain spreaders are you go after?

 

What about those pregnant mothers that are not immune to rubella (that have every right to NOT be vaccinated or re-vaccinated because of the fears of their unborn child)  and "can" spread it- does she get to be heavily punished because of your child counts more than her's? Those pregnant mothers are deliberately not being vaccinated, how is that different from having a "party" in your mind? Both ARE deliberate acts. 

 

How are you going after these people and how are you heavily punishing them??? - forcing them to vaccinate, holding them down, making them wear identifying marks so you know who deliberately exposed other, seems society has done that before with disastrous results? headscratch.gif 

 

AIDS in the 1980's - WOW people were treated so well weren't they! :angry

 

you must live in a utopia where you go after others, I am glad I don't  - talk about altruism - you want to heavily punish others - great view on society-IMO great view :irked  

 

 

ETA- I feel this is offensive to call for others to be heavily punished, this is not a debateable, this is an attack, glad rights still trump zealous attacks!


Edited by serenbat - 11/19/13 at 5:07am
post #36 of 110

I am talking about DELIBERATE exposure. Parties that are meant JUST for exposure and lollipops that are being sent to others (eww, I would never let my child lick a lolly from a stranger, mingin!). Not about people who choose not to vaccinate but don't hold parties or send out viruses. 

 

My child COULDN'T get the vaccine in time, he was not offered it, no doctor would have given him it, that was no choice of mine. There WAS no choice but to rely on herd immunity which, against all expectations of some anti-vaccination movements worked. 

 

Since you brought up HIV, another example how the "viruses build up your immune system," theory is flawed.

 

I have heard that statement a few times and have never seen any proof. 

post #37 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

I am talking about DELIBERATE exposure. Parties that are meant JUST for exposure and lollipops that are being sent to others (eww, I would never let my child lick a lolly from a stranger, mingin!). Not about people who choose not to vaccinate but don't hold parties or send out viruses. 

 

My child COULDN'T get the vaccine in time, he was not offered it, no doctor would have given him it, that was no choice of mine. There WAS no choice but to rely on herd immunity which, against all expectations of some anti-vaccination movements worked. 

 

Since you brought up HIV, another example how the "viruses build up your immune system," theory is flawed.

 

I have heard that statement a few times and have never seen any proof. 

That is not what it's implies from what you wrote - Quote:

Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

 

Deliberate exposure and spreading of any illness should be heavily punished. Just my humble opinion. 

 

ANY illness should be heavily punished!                     and you were the one stating about measles parties! you really jump to big conclusions-IMO

 

by the way, it's not the "crime" (federal offensive you seem to feel it is either!) - it's a "party" right within a family - many siblings share items, it's been going on for centuries  - I went to two "parties" growing up - one was a sleep over and out of 12 there, I was the only one who didn't get CP - it's wasn't called a CP party, it was a BIRTHDAY party, and two days later the party girl and her siblings all broke with CP - two weeks later the rest that were there got it, both times there were break out after a birthday party, I didn't get it CP - I got it 20+ years later from my DD age 7 - I HAD to take care of her - I didn't heavily punisher her for exposing me!!!!!! -

back in the day, no parent freaked out or called for "heavy punishment" - it's is called life and some of us choose to live it - this was years ago, when people did not go after others like you are calling for :angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

 

 

I certainly feel that vaccinating your healthy child is more altruistic than throwing a measles party. 

 

 

others can clearly read it as well :irked 

post #38 of 110

I'll repeat myself again. Deliberate exposure in form of a party that is deliberately organised to make children sick with a certain virus should be illegal and therefore fined. A birthday party where someone has the pox no-one knows about and then others get it isn't what I was talking about. And yes, it has been done for centuries, but it is not necessary to have a rubella party for pre-pubescent girls anymore, as there is a vaccine for it. THAT one made sense. Back then.

 

Something being done for "centuries" doesn't make it right. Genocide has been done for centuries. So has female circumcision. (not comparing those to vaccines at all, just saying that things that have been done ages ago aren't necessarily the right things to do.)

 

I do wonder sometimes, if those vaccination debates and anti-vax movements really is just and all about vaccines or if there are other, deeper motives. Will read up on that. 

post #39 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by EineMutti View Post
 

I'll repeat myself again. Deliberate exposure in form of a party that is deliberately organised to make children sick with a certain virus should be illegal and therefore fined. A birthday party where someone has the pox no-one knows about and then others get it isn't what I was talking about. And yes, it has been done for centuries, but it is not necessary to have a rubella party for pre-pubescent girls anymore, as there is a vaccine for it. THAT one made sense. Back then.

 

Something being done for "centuries" doesn't make it right. Genocide has been done for centuries. So has female circumcision. (not comparing those to vaccines at all, just saying that things that have been done ages ago aren't necessarily the right things to do.)

 

I do wonder sometimes, if those vaccination debates and anti-vax movements really is just and all about vaccines or if there are other, deeper motives.:dizzy Will read up on that.  - Offit can can give a one sided perspective, there are lots of others that can also do that 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinahx View Post

Who is throwing measles parties? 1 in a million is a fatality rate for which brand of which vaccine?
 
 
you seem to want to not answer questions- who is now throwing rubella parties? Where is this happening? links - data, news on this please? 
 
I gave the HIV example because it is exactly how you want to do- heavily punish people - that is what did happen to many - they were punished, this is not about deflecting and trying to change the subject to what suites your ever evolving perspective from post to post.
 
You stated "heavily punish" people  for ANY illness -explain that please?
 
 
post #40 of 110
I have personally never heard of anyone throwing a Measles or Rubella party. It would be super hard to throw a Rubella party as it is often silent. Paul Offit said Chicken Pox parties used to make sense, before the Vax. I don't agree with them now, personally.

In any case, I have never once considered wearing a seatbelt as anything other than a completely logical act of self/child protection.

When my compensation for an act far outweighs any personal cost/risk, I just don't consider that altruism. Merely thinking of others doesn't qualify it as such IMO. A good example would be, if I went to the Philipimes tomorrow, but got my travel covered, got paid 50G for going & expected publicity & a promotion to a highly sought after position upon my return. I think if those details were publicized, others would have as hard a time seeing my trip as one of 'self sacrifice' or 'altruism' as I would. This comes up all the time actually, when, for example, people who run charities get very high salaries.
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