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Why are we so worried about vax vs non-vax? - Page 6

post #101 of 401
Thread Starter 
To be fair, the most recent outbreaks were caused by mostly unvaccinated people travelling to other countries where measles is more prevalent and returning to the US.
post #102 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

Please show me documentation that measles is coming back.  

 

It would need to be a steady increase, over years…and it would need to correlate to a steady decrease in MMR vaccination.  Even then it is simple correlation - you would need to rule out other factors for the correlation - such as perhaps the vaccine is not working as it intended. 

 

So, please back up your statement "measles is coming back" with data.

 

(ETA:  CDC Pink Book with measles stats.  No steady increase.  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf )

 

I agree with this in the sense that in order for something to "come back" it would have to have gone away, and while the levels have fluctuated over the years, it never did go away. 

 

Also, despite all the media hype about measles vaccination rates, many people who can't or won't get the combo shot still can't get the measles-only shot; this makes me think the talk about trying to eradicate measles is just that: talk.

post #103 of 401
nm - repetitive :)

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/19/13 at 7:40am
post #104 of 401

This may be of topic, but I'm a little older than some of the Mamas on this board. I remember kids getting measles and mumps and chicken pox. These diseases were pretty common in the 60s and even during the 70s. I remember kids missing weeks of school when they would get these illnesses (and I was jealous, because I loved to stay home and I NEVER got any of these illnesses, unless you count the chicken pox I got when I was 29 and had two toddlers at the time!)  I don't remember a lot of flurry about it. Fevers could be adequately treated with APAP at the time and other antipyretics, itching was treated with everything from lotion to Benadryl (which you needed a prescription for back then.) I don't know any boys who got mumps badly enough in adolescence to effect their fertility, although it may have happened and no one is talking. I simply don't remember anybody getting all worked up about those diseases back then. Schools understood kids got childhood illnesses and made allowances for them. Parents understood that "childhood diseases" were part of childhood. I knew many children who got measles, I don't remember ANY complications. I remember being sent to play with kids who had chicken pox or measles, "to get it over with" but I never go them as a kid. I did get a rubella vaccine when I 4 or 5, and my mother kept me in a dark room, isolated for a week as I had a reaction to it. She thought I was contagious, I wasn't, but I do remember the headache. I don't remember any kids ever getting rubella as a disease, although I remember many of the other childhood illnesses. When I was a kid, you still heard of the random person getting Polio, but it was almost always found to be someone  who had changed the diaper or been in close contact with a baby who had recently had the oral Polio vaccine. A man with cancer in our neighborhood died after getting Polio this way, but that's the only death I remember.

 

I'm not saying that children with immune system issues weren't effected. One of my cousins had Cystic Fibrosis and he had a chicken pox vaccine in the mid 70s. His immune system and his respiratory condition put him at a much higher risk of complication than the normal child.  This vaccine didn't become "mandatory" nor did chicken pox become considered "deadly" until women went into the workplace in large numbers.... and staying home with sick kids for weeks or months would be inconvenient. It's not that chicken pox suddenly became a dread disease.  Before that it was just assumed If you wanted kids, they WOULD get illnesses and it was your responsibility to take care of them when they were sick, even if that illness lasted weeks or months. When my kids and I got the chicken pox,, my oldest and I got it at the same time (I was sick as a dog and had bloody stools from pox in my intestines and ended up in the ER for a few hours... she was FINE) then Moon got it 2 weeks to the day later, so we were stuck in Isolation for about 5 weeks. It was just something you KNEW you had to do as a mother. I wasn't crazy about being stuck in the house with "sick" but very active children who were going stir crazy... but you did what you had to for your kids. It would have never occurred to me then to get my babies injected with something just to save me from having to take time off of work (although I was a SAHM at the time) or to prevent the inconvenience of being stuck in the house for over a month. I realized when I consented to accept my first pregnancy that my life was no longer just "what I wanted to do."  My youngest child has not had the chicken pox vaccine and hasn't had the pox. I should have gone to that chicken pox party when she was 2.5, but I thought she was weaning and I was worried she might get the pox when her immune system was at a nadir because of the weaning.... she nursed for two more years.

 

There are diseases I've seen the research that shows they are worth, at least to our family, getting a vax for: even though polio is eradicated in the West and is a mild illness 99% of the time, my dad had it and I think his stories may have scared me. So my kids got the INJECTED Polio vaccine, NOT the oral. Same for Diphtheria. Horrid disease, low risk vaccine. Same for HiB, low risk vaccine, horrid disease with a high death rate. So those are part of our Selective vaccinations. IMO, babies and children don't have sex and don't shoot up drugs. Unless you get Hep B from your mom during pregnancy, THOSE are the ways you normally get Hep B. If my adult children want to engage in random sex with strangers with no protection (I hope I have taught them better) or shoot up drugs (in which case I'd have a lot more than usually mild Hep B to worry about) then they have the choice to have themselves vaccinated.

 

The only point I'm trying to make is that the population's feelings about childhood illnesses have changed dramatically in the last 40 years, and a lot of that change is not for the better IMO. People are a LOT more panicky about some of these illnesses than in years past, when kids got the illness, got a lifetime or VERY long immunity and parents realized that kids would get sick and that they needed care during those illnesses.

 

We're NEVER going to completely irradiate disease. As our immune systems may change from myriad vaccines for every little thing, there are some theories that we may be becoming more susceptible to chronic illnesses, which are a huge burden on the health care system, cost a fortune and in the long run kill as many if not more people than childhood illnesses used to.

 

Mileage and all that.

post #105 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieLC View Post
 

 

 

I'm not saying that children with immune system issues weren't effected. One of my cousins had Cystic Fibrosis and he had a chicken pox vaccine in the mid 70s. His immune system and his respiratory condition put him at a much higher risk of complication than the normal child.  This vaccine didn't become "mandatory" nor did chicken pox become considered "deadly" until women went into the workplace in large numbers.... and staying home with sick kids for weeks or months would be inconvenient. It's not that chicken pox suddenly became a dread disease.  Before that it was just assumed If you wanted kids, they WOULD get illnesses and it was your responsibility to take care of them when they were sick, even if that illness lasted weeks or months. When my kids and I got the chicken pox,, my oldest and I got it at the same time (I was sick as a dog and had bloody stools from pox in my intestines and ended up in the ER for a few hours... she was FINE) then Moon got it 2 weeks to the day later, so we were stuck in Isolation for about 5 weeks. It was just something you KNEW you had to do as a mother. I wasn't crazy about being stuck in the house with "sick" but very active children who were going stir crazy... but you did what you had to for your kids. It would have never occurred to me then to get my babies injected with something just to save me from having to take time off of work (although I was a SAHM at the time) or to prevent the inconvenience of being stuck in the house for over a month. I realized when I consented to accept my first pregnancy that my life was no longer just "what I wanted to do."  My youngest child has not had the chicken pox vaccine and hasn't had the pox. I should have gone to that chicken pox party when she was 2.5, but I thought she was weaning and I was worried she might get the pox when her immune system was at a nadir because of the weaning.... she nursed for two more years.

 

 

 

The chicken pox vaccine was not available until 1995.  How did your cousin get it in the 70's?

 

You know, it's all well and good for you that you were a SAHM and could take 5 weeks to be in isolation from chicken pox.  For many, many people today, this would be a disaster.  When you're living paycheck to paycheck, 5 weeks without working, or even 2 weeks, could be the difference between a roof over your head and homelessness.  It's not about women being selfish and putting themselves first, for God's sake, injecting their children with "something" so that they don't have to take time off.  It's about providing for your family.  

post #106 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post

]

Evidence please? Measles vaccination rates are higher than they've ever been according to the CDC. In fact it at least partially appears that the disease epidemiology is shifting due to high vaccination rates.

 </<br />
I was just coming here to debunk the misinfo, but other posters beat me to it. Here are the MMR (and other) vaccine uptake rates. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf

Here's what I find interesting. 10% of the target population, (i.e. "target population" being dang near everybody), is not up-to-date on MMR vaccinations. Yet 2% of parents nationally claim NMEs (non-medical exemptions). (Source: http://www.familypracticenews.com/single-view/vaccination-exemptions-at-22-for-kindergartners/1d0c7e7ff08217358ec48ccece6c729a.html ) If we're oh-so-scared of vaccine-targeted diseases making that scary, scary comeback, why is the focus on going after parents who consciously decline the vaccine? What about that 8% gap that isn't covered and isn't claiming exemptions? Instead of this rash of Bad Mommy legislation in different states, why aren't there more efforts to GET vaccines to people who would actually WANT them but, for whatever reason, don't have access? Or if there are simply gaps in data collection and that gap isn't really as large as 8%, why isn't there a greater effort to improve that process? And if that plane-ride-away polio is such a threat, why isn't there more fear over that nebulous 8%? I'm no mathematician, but 8 is greater than 2.

One more thought: Herd immunity levels seem to be set pretty arbitrarily. I've heard numbers as high as 95% needing to be vaccinated with *all* doses. Do you know what this means? We've never had herd immunity in the U.S. Ever. For any disease. Mind boggling, no? We should all be pulling out our hair and screaming hysterically...

post #107 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieLC View Post
 

This may be of topic, but I'm a little older than some of the Mamas on this board. I remember kids getting measles and mumps and chicken pox. These diseases were pretty common in the 60s and even during the 70s. I remember kids missing weeks of school when they would get these illnesses (and I was jealous, because I loved to stay home and I NEVER got any of these illnesses, unless you count the chicken pox I got when I was 29 and had two toddlers at the time!)  I don't remember a lot of flurry about it. Fevers could be adequately treated with APAP at the time and other antipyretics, itching was treated with everything from lotion to Benadryl (which you needed a prescription for back then.) I don't know any boys who got mumps badly enough in adolescence to effect their fertility, although it may have happened and no one is talking. I simply don't remember anybody getting all worked up about those diseases back then. Schools understood kids got childhood illnesses and made allowances for them. Parents understood that "childhood diseases" were part of childhood. I knew many children who got measles, I don't remember ANY complications. I remember being sent to play with kids who had chicken pox or measles, "to get it over with" but I never go them as a kid. I did get a rubella vaccine when I 4 or 5, and my mother kept me in a dark room, isolated for a week as I had a reaction to it. She thought I was contagious, I wasn't, but I do remember the headache. I don't remember any kids ever getting rubella as a disease, although I remember many of the other childhood illnesses. When I was a kid, you still heard of the random person getting Polio, but it was almost always found to be someone  who had changed the diaper or been in close contact with a baby who had recently had the oral Polio vaccine. A man with cancer in our neighborhood died after getting Polio this way, but that's the only death I remember.

 

I'm a lurker don't regularly chime into these discussions (and usually actively avoid vaccine parts of the board).  Bolding is mine, but it should not go unstated that even though you know of no one who had complications, they do happen (just like I know of no one who has had a severe vaccine reaction, even though I know that they happen).  An anecdata point for you: my unvaccinated nephew had the measles several years ago, and is now deaf as a result.  It didn't kill him, and he has all his mental faculties, but he sure misses being able to hear things.  I think its fine and good to write off vaccines for these as unnecessary or worse, a way for women to avoid taking time off work and continue doing whatever they wanted to (that is an extremely privileged and offensive opinion, by the way), but a bad outcome/side effect from these diseases isn't just death. 

post #108 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post
 

 

The chicken pox vaccine was not available until 1995.  How did your cousin get it in the 70's?

 

You know, it's all well and good for you that you were a SAHM and could take 5 weeks to be in isolation from chicken pox.  For many, many people today, this would be a disaster.  When you're living paycheck to paycheck, 5 weeks without working, or even 2 weeks, could be the difference between a roof over your head and homelessness.  It's not about women being selfish and putting themselves first, for God's sake, injecting their children with "something" so that they don't have to take time off.  It's about providing for your family.  

Arguing for a medical procedure for a child for a non medical reason is questionable. We accept it, barely, when it is something like cosmetic surgery - where the child is being tormented for their appearnace.  A medical procedure to avoid missing a week of school, though?  Nope.

 

In an ideal world, schools and employment would be set up so there are not grave consequences for a 6 year old missing a week of school, and the parent having to take a week off.  I get that that is not current reality, so I do not judge parents who make the difficult call to vaccinate to avoid missing work/school.  I still think it will be cold comfort (and backfire majorly) if your child has a vaccine reaction.  Under no circumstances, however, should anyone argue that most should get the chicken pox vaccine because some people cannot take time off work.  

post #109 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
 
 
 

 


Here's what I find interesting. 10% of the target population, (i.e. "target population" being dang near everybody), is not up-to-date on MMR vaccinations. Yet 2% of parents nationally claim NMEs (non-medical exemptions). (Source: http://www.familypracticenews.com/single-view/vaccination-exemptions-at-22-for-kindergartners/1d0c7e7ff08217358ec48ccece6c729a.html ) If we're oh-so-scared of vaccine-targeted diseases making that scary, scary comeback, why is the focus on going after parents who consciously decline the vaccine? What about that 8% gap that isn't covered and isn't claiming exemptions? Instead of this rash of Bad Mommy legislation in different states, why aren't there more efforts to GET vaccines to people who would actually WANT them but, for whatever reason, don't have access?

 

Well, helping people who want to get vaccines but can't, is pricey.  

 

Bad mommy legislation and rants are free, or closer to it.  They also get to pick on mommies, particularly mommies who are not compliant, for which there is a time honoured tradition.  

post #110 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

Bad mommy legislation and rants are free, or closer to it.  They also get to pick on mommies, particularly mommies who are not compliant, for which there is a time honoured tradition.  

 

:yeah  
post #111 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chknlovr View Post

The chicken pox vaccine was not available until 1995.  How did your cousin get it in the 70's?

You know, it's all well and good for you that you were a SAHM and could take 5 weeks to be in isolation from chicken pox.  For many, many people today, this would be a disaster.  When you're living paycheck to paycheck, 5 weeks without working, or even 2 weeks, could be the difference between a roof over your head and homelessness.  It's not about women being selfish and putting themselves first, for God's sake, injecting their children with "something" so that they don't have to take time off.  It's about providing for your family.  

This actually isn't true. The CP vaccine has been around since the mid-1960s. A different version of it was added to the CDC recommendations 1995.
post #112 of 401

Why wasn't the early version widely distributed? I never had this vaccine. I was born in the 80s and our generation took for granted that we'd eventually get chicken pox. And I did... right around the same time the vaccine was announced in 1995! :flipped

post #113 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post


This actually isn't true. The CP vaccine has been around since the mid-1960s. A different version of it was added to the CDC recommendations 1995.

 

Interesting.  Do you have a source for this?  Everything that I've read says licensed in the US in 1995.

post #114 of 401
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/18/us/after-long-debate-vaccine-for-chicken-pox-is-approved.html

"Any recommendation is likely to be debated because of controversies that have swirled around the vaccine since its initial development in a different form in the mid-1960's."

In short, I don't think MaggieLC was lying when she said that she knew someone who received the vaccine in the 1970s.
post #115 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

Why wasn't the early version widely distributed? I never had this vaccine. I was born in the 80s and our generation took for granted that we'd eventually get chicken pox. And I did... right around the same time the vaccine was announced in 1995! " src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/wild.gif" />


 



The U.S. is quite unique in recommending and mandating the CP vaccine for all children. I'll have to find the article I read about this, but it was originally used, (and still is in most of the world), on more at-risk individuals, such as children with leukemia.
post #116 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

This actually isn't true. The CP vaccine has been around since the mid-1960s. A different version of it was added to the CDC recommendations 1995.

Thank you Turquessa. A lot of assumptions have been made about me here and elsewhere due to the "Mean Girls" who seem to loveb to cross post and ridicule.

Thank you.

Yes my cousin had a chicken pox vax because of his respiratory and immune problems. I don't know the specifics as I was a kid, too. (I suppose some one may now challenge if I was ever really a kid and demand documentation.)

Sheesh.

Thank you, though, Turquessa. I appreciate it.
Edited by MaggieLC - 12/23/13 at 4:41pm
post #117 of 401
Oh and the main reaso the CP vax wasn't widely available wa, from the adults of that era was that, unless a child had severe immune problems, Chicken Pox was an expected bump in the road of childhood and parenting and few parents thought much about it. That's how I remember it.
post #118 of 401
Quote:
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieLC View Post


Thank you Turquessa. A lot of assumptions have been made about me here and elsewhere due to the "Mean Girls" who seem to loveb to cross post and ridicule.

 

 

(((MaggieLC)))

 

“Trolls suck.” 
 Betty White

post #119 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

 

 

(((MaggieLC)))

 

“Trolls suck.” 
 Betty White

they SURE do……………my, my, my, MY…………..oh, ah,,,,,,,,,ah,,,,, oopsie!…………ah- nope! ---------yea, right! :irked 

post #120 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/18/us/after-long-debate-vaccine-for-chicken-pox-is-approved.html

"Any recommendation is likely to be debated because of controversies that have swirled around the vaccine since its initial development in a different form in the mid-1960's."

In short, I don't think MaggieLC was lying when she said that she knew someone who received the vaccine in the 1970s.

 

But initial development doesn't mean it was being given.  All I can find evidence of is use in experimental trials prior to approval in 1995.  Not saying it wasn't used, I'd just like to see something more concrete.

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