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Why are we so worried about vax vs non-vax? - Page 8

post #141 of 403
Thread Starter 
I don't see evidence either way here......just hypothetical rambling.

We might as well claim vaccines are responsible for longer lifespans, healthier childhoods, and the eradication of disease. That argument is just as well supported as yours above.
post #142 of 403

Ingredients aside, what about rogue viruses in vaccines?

Quote:
 Human and veterinary vaccines have been found contaminated with wide array of viruses that are deemed harmless or less risky than the attenuated live virus of the vaccine.  These contaminating garbage viruses are nowhere near as well investigated than they should have been prior to the commercialization of the vaccines. The contaminating garbage viruses are deemed harmless because they do not elicit sera conversion (production of antibody) even though the garbage viruses frequently produce proteins that are toxic in specific tissues.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Viruses_and_Virus_Nucleic_Acid_Contaminate_Vaccines.php

post #143 of 403
Either vaccines are super healthy and contribute to outstanding health and avoiding death...Or vaccines don't. One side is Right and the other side is Wrong. Both sides can't be right. We've seen plenty of cases where vaccines damage and kill people instantly, even where the court agrees. If vaccines are able to do that instantly, its common sense that long term effects include auto immune diseases, cancer, etc.
post #144 of 403
I think why it matters boils down to fear, no matter where you stand on this issue. If you choose vaccination for yourself and/or your child, you fear getting the illness it goes w/ more than you fear what the vaccine can/will do to your body. If you do not get a vaccine, you fear it more than you do the illness. Of course, there is also the fear those who vax have of those who don't (you're a vessel for disease!) and those of us who don't have fear when we go to the drs that we'll be harassed, or harassed online, and/or harassed in some other way. Since we live in fear based societies, it's not at all surprising (do this or else, get the vax or an exemption, or else, etc.).

There will be people who disagree w/ me & say they aren't afraid & that's fine. I have more to say on this but can't articulate it very well right now. If I can & I've time, I'll add it later.

Sus
post #145 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLilPwny View Post

Either vaccines are super healthy and contribute to outstanding health and avoiding death...Or vaccines don't. One side is Right and the other side is Wrong. Both sides can't be right. We've seen plenty of cases where vaccines damage and kill people instantly, even where the court agrees. If vaccines are able to do that instantly, its common sense that long term effects include auto immune diseases, cancer, etc.


Are you saying that the perception that the issue is black and white is fueling the debate?  If so, I agree.  If you're trying to say that the issue is black and white, I dissagree quite strongly.

post #146 of 403
If something can kill someone immediately, then if it doesn't, it will therefore give, what, anyone and everyone autoimmune diseases and cancer "etc"? How does that make any sense at all? Peanuts can kill some people within a very short timeframe but no one is saying anyone who eats them will get cancer from them. Although I should probably check into that, as it seems there is no end to crazy claims on the internet.
post #147 of 403
Vaccines issue is black and white in the way that either they have saved humans from being attacked and killed by germs...Or vaccines are not what prevent germs from killing people. Also either having enough antibodies is the end all be all factor that prevents germs from attacking and creating disease....Or antibodies are just one tiny part, having little or nothing to do with the entire complex dynamic multifaceted system that is responsible for attacking and fighting off germs. That means titer testing is the end all be all to determine immunity...Or titer testing means nothing for determining immunity.

Vaccines damage the immune system towards th2 dominance, making th1 response dormant, so vaccines cause people to be more autoimmune. Here is Caroline, a vaccine fast-damaged child and her parents explain it nicely with a picture graph showing how vaccines mutilate the immune system:

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/Immune_System.html

The way autoimmunity works, some children will be fast damaged like Caroline, and others will be slow damaged, the slow poison that crops up later in life as a mysterious autoimmune disease.
post #148 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLilPwny View Post

Vaccines issue is black and white in the way that either they have saved humans from being attacked and killed by germs...Or vaccines are not what prevent germs from killing people. Also either having enough antibodies is the end all be all factor that prevents germs from attacking and creating disease....Or antibodies are just one tiny part, having little or nothing to do with the entire complex dynamic multifaceted system that is responsible for attacking and fighting off germs. That means titer testing is the end all be all to determine immunity...Or titer testing means nothing for determining immunity.

Vaccines damage the immune system towards th2 dominance, making th1 response dormant, so vaccines cause people to be more autoimmune. Here is Caroline, a vaccine fast-damaged child and her parents explain it nicely with a picture graph showing how vaccines mutilate the immune system:

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/Immune_System.html

The way autoimmunity works, some children will be fast damaged like Caroline, and others will be slow damaged, the slow poison that crops up later in life as a mysterious autoimmune disease.

Must be interesting to live in a world that's so black or white.

post #149 of 403
Thread Starter 

Black-and-white is much more effective for advocacy than shades of grey.  The message is more coherent and can travel farther.  Hence, the strong pro- and anti-vax positions.


Edited by naimah - 12/30/13 at 6:52pm
post #150 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post

I think why it matters boils down to fear, no matter where you stand on this issue. If you choose vaccination for yourself and/or your child, you fear getting the illness it goes w/ more than you fear what the vaccine can/will do to your body. If you do not get a vaccine, you fear it more than you do the illness. Of course, there is also the fear those who vax have of those who don't (you're a vessel for disease!) and those of us who don't have fear when we go to the drs that we'll be harassed, or harassed online, and/or harassed in some other way. Since we live in fear based societies, it's not at all surprising (do this or else, get the vax or an exemption, or else, etc.).

There will be people who disagree w/ me & say they aren't afraid & that's fine. I have more to say on this but can't articulate it very well right now. If I can & I've time, I'll add it later.

Sus


Doctors are liable for children they let into their practice, and can be sued for malpractice if VPDs are spread at their practice.  Taking on unvaccinated children exposes them to financial risks as well, including the risk of being sued by the parents (for not vaccinating) if their unvaccinated children contract any of the diseases and suffer adverse effects.  Not to mention that most current doctors have never even seen a case of measles or the other diseases....so they may not know properly diagnose treatment in time if your kids get it.

 

It's important to remember how litigious the medical environment is and how it limits most doctors to following the broadly accepted medical standards of care.  Doctors are caught in a lot of fear as well.  Something to think about if you're trying to live a more natural lifestyle that may be at odds with the medical system....

post #151 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post

Black-and-white is much more effective for advocacy than shades of grey.  The message is more coherent and can travel farther.  Hence, the strong pro- and anti-vax positions.


 



That...and I think public health officials believe that it's the only way to communicate the pro-compliance message. But when I hear black-and-white from these people, as well as from pediatricians, I feel like I'm getting talked down to. Especially when I know as damned well as they do about all of the grays.
post #152 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post

Black-and-white is much more effective for advocacy than shades of grey.  The message is more coherent and can travel farther.  Hence, the strong pro- and anti-vax positions.


 



That...and I think public health officials believe that it's the only way to communicate the pro-compliance message. But when I hear black-and-white from these people, as well as from pediatricians, I feel like I'm getting talked down to. Especially when I know as damned well as they do about all of the grays.

Well public health officials understand the principles of effective communication to know that black-and-white works better. And they may not know enough to understand the shades of grey, unless they are doctors themselves. It's not actually easy to summarize science without murky grey areas that end up sounding garbled and inconsistent. And people who communicate that way can't make their message go very far.
post #153 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLilPwny View Post

Vaccines issue is black and white in the way that either they have saved humans from being attacked and killed by germs...Or vaccines are not what prevent germs from killing people. Also either having enough antibodies is the end all be all factor that prevents germs from attacking and creating disease....Or antibodies are just one tiny part, having little or nothing to do with the entire complex dynamic multifaceted system that is responsible for attacking and fighting off germs. That means titer testing is the end all be all to determine immunity...Or titer testing means nothing for determining immunity.

Vaccines damage the immune system towards th2 dominance, making th1 response dormant, so vaccines cause people to be more autoimmune. Here is Caroline, a vaccine fast-damaged child and her parents explain it nicely with a picture graph showing how vaccines mutilate the immune system:

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/Immune_System.html

The way autoimmunity works, some children will be fast damaged like Caroline, and others will be slow damaged, the slow poison that crops up later in life as a mysterious autoimmune disease.

This doesn't even remotely make sense. Th1 dominance is typically associated with autoimmune conditions. Did you get them mixed up?
post #154 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post


Well public health officials understand the principles of effective communication to know that black-and-white works better. And they may not know enough to understand the shades of grey, unless they are doctors themselves. It's not actually easy to summarize science without murky grey areas that end up sounding garbled and inconsistent. And people who communicate that way can't make their message go very far.

Black and white messages work well (depending on your definition of "well") with one portion of the population, but to others of us those black and white messages look like a big pack of lies because the generalisations are so broad that they're not true.

post #155 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post

This doesn't even remotely make sense. Th1 dominance is typically associated with autoimmune conditions. Did you get them mixed up?

See the picture diagram to answer your question

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/sitebuilder/images/autoimmune_for_IS-600x287.png
post #156 of 403

That's not proof.  Anyone can make a powerpoint slide.  Where is the literature that shows that th2 domination is associated with autoimmunity and that vaccines are the cause?

post #157 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by naimah View Post


Well public health officials understand the principles of effective communication to know that black-and-white works better. And they may not know enough to understand the shades of grey, unless they are doctors themselves. It's not actually easy to summarize science without murky grey areas that end up sounding garbled and inconsistent. And people who communicate that way can't make their message go very far.
Black and white messages do not work well with populations that are aware of the gray areas. They create trust issues.  When someone over-simplifies an issue for an audience, it is done because they assume the audience  cannot handle the details or gray areas.  This does not work for people who want to be partners in health care decision.
 
Alas, it is not my call.  If public health officials decide black and white will make for more effective broad scale communication, that is their call.  They simply have to know there are consequences of this call and that it is not going to work for everyone.  Don't whine about people not heeding your message when you go in knowing it is not going to work for everyone.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 1/2/14 at 10:49am
post #158 of 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLilPwny View Post


See the picture diagram to answer your question

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/sitebuilder/images/autoimmune_for_IS-600x287.png

 

Mylilpwny…I love that site.

 

I am not going to get overly into it, but I find the relationship between vaccines and allergies/autoimmune issues fairly compelling.

 

A lot of it does go back to the hygiene hypothesis (among other things).  A lack of exposure to viruses, micro-organism, parasites, etc may result in over-reaction (allergy or auto-immune) when they are exposed.   

 

I am not going to debate this with anyone.  People can do research and decide as they see fit  (shrug).  I am simply speaking up as someone who finds the relationship concerning.  

post #159 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelsmama View Post
 

Black and white messages work well (depending on your definition of "well") with one portion of the population, but to others of us those black and white messages look like a big pack of lies because the generalisations are so broad that they're not true.

Again I think that there are doctors (and even public health advocates) who use messages with shades of grey (certainly these are VERY apparent in the medical literature), but that their messages don't travel far enough to reach the ears of the tiny minority of people who are looking for them.  It's a sad reality of how communication actually works--subtlety just gets lost in the noise. :blah 

post #160 of 403
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

I am not going to get overly into it, but I find the relationship between vaccines and allergies/autoimmune issues fairly compelling.

 

alas, the compelling relationships are often the most untrue ones, because they simplify complex issues into simplistic, black-and-white thinking.

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