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Why are we so worried about vax vs non-vax? - Page 2

post #21 of 401
I agree as well, although I get sucked in to the debate. Mostly what gets me irate is the generalizations about folks who don't vax. Examples would be that we're "anti-science", "conspiracy theorists", or "religious zealots". Very insulting and also not based on anything factual. IRL, I have friends who don't vax, friends who select/delay, and friends who follow the schedule. We all respect each other. Most of what I see on the debate board is manufactured outrage. Gotta wonder why...
post #22 of 401
Thread Starter 

Dalia, I'm pretty sure the manufactured outrage on the debate board is due to.....the fact that people come here to debate ;)

post #23 of 401
Haha well I can't really explain what I mean because I'm functioning on almost no sleep manufactured by my four year old and two month old. Ugh!!!
post #24 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalia View Post

I agree as well, although I get sucked in to the debate. Mostly what gets me irate is the generalizations about folks who don't vax. Examples would be that we're "anti-science", "conspiracy theorists", or "religious zealots". Very insulting and also not based on anything factual. IRL, I have friends who don't vax, friends who select/delay, and friends who follow the schedule. We all respect each other. Most of what I see on the debate board is manufactured outrage. Gotta wonder why...

 

Vaccine issues are extra nasty online, and i do not really know why.  i have some theories, but no time to write a book, lol.
 
I don't know that the controversy is manufactured, but I would say it primarily benfits those who want to take away parental rights.  It is easier to take away rights from a group you hate - think is crazy, stupid, conspiracy driven, etc.  To a degree, I regret my part in it - there are times I should have walked away from the computer rather than be the example a mob was trying to make of me. Ah well, live and learn.  
 
On the flip side, I am sensing more acceptance of selective/delayed vaccination lately.  Perhaps some of that has come about through particpation in forums such as these. 
post #25 of 401

What gets me most irate is the constant insinuations that anyone who chooses to fax must be a pharma shill. 

 

Also the seeming wish of some posters to watch (with popcorn) people get nasty… not helpful in my opinion! ;) 

 

Anyway it's Christmas, so let's all get along. I propose a Holiday Season quiet time to give the moderators a break! ;) 

post #26 of 401
Merry Chriatmas, Proscience! ;-)
post #27 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 

What gets me most irate is the constant insinuations that anyone who chooses to fax must be a pharma shill. 

 

Also the seeming wish of some posters to watch (with popcorn) people get nasty… not helpful in my opinion! ;) 

 

Anyway it's Christmas, so let's all get along. I propose a Holiday Season quiet time to give the moderators a break! ;) 

Well, I tend to fax people regularly and am not a pharma shill.  

 

That being said…ink toner is dangerous.  

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/dangers-toner-ink-exposure-55298.html

 

Maybe you're an inkshill???

 

J/K.  Have a good one,

 

Kathy

post #28 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 

What gets me most irate is the constant insinuations that anyone who chooses to fax must be a pharma shill. 

 

Also the seeming wish of some posters to watch (with popcorn) people get nasty… not helpful in my opinion! ;) 

 

Anyway it's Christmas, so let's all get along. I propose a Holiday Season quiet time to give the moderators a break! ;) 

It's human nature to want to watch a good fight once in a while; it's why Jerry Springer was on tv so long?  And frankly, I suspect that some threads are started for the express purpose of starting a big nasty fight.  It's ugly, and not helpful at all considering the subject matter, but it's kind of inevitable, like the gawkers at a car wreck.

post #29 of 401
Might be human nature. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I dislike jerry springer style shows and that traffic slows by car accidents too.

Why can't people think of others a bit more I wonder.
post #30 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Might be human nature. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I dislike jerry springer style shows and that traffic slows by car accidents too.

 

The multiple use of popcorn dudes is here.

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1391741/pro-vaxxers-talk-to-me-about-conflicts-of-interest

 

Turquesa created an excellent Op that asked some tough questions of those who are pro-vax.  

 

I don't think the popcorn dudes were done by lurkers who just wanted to watch a train wreck.  They were done by people who were genuinely interested in the answer.  It is possible they were a bit gleeful about it - and why not?  This is a debate board and those were excellent questions.  I am sure some vaxxers would be thrilled if someone wrote a brilliant post asking non-vaxxers tough questions.  Popcorn might spring up. I don't think popcorn dude is all that nasty - calling people Pharmashills?  Saying they are not crunchy enough to belong? Eugenicists?  Conspiracy science?  Stupid?  These have all happened and they are all worse, by far, than popcron dude.  

 

As per "why can't people think of others?"

 

1.  Some people are drawn towards this forum because they are nasty people to begin with

2.  Some people think the cause is more important than any individual who might be on the other side

3.  Some people just do not like each other, or are not particulalry forgiving (it is rare for people to apologise around here).  Lots of murky water under the bridge.

 

My 2 cents.  Ciao.

post #31 of 401

Well, I'm with PSM on this, but personally I think the moderation here is much more lenient towards non-vaxers. Non-vaxers can be all sorts of snide, rude, and dismissive on the main forums. Pro-vaxers can't even say (in Vaccinating on Schedule, even), that they think a particular non-vax position is a bad idea or doesn't make sense. I would say more, but my post would get moderated. :eyesroll

post #32 of 401
Unfortunately that may be true, but there are *lots* of forums that pro vaxers may receive support, this is one of the only places that non vaxers have. So, I'm not trying to say its fair, but, there's that saying, "life is not always fair" JMO
post #33 of 401

If other people want to vac their kids on schedule, it isn't my business, but other posters are right when they say there are few places on the web where nonvaxers and selective vaxers can go for support.

 

I used to be a pretty gung ho vaxer. I thought it was my "civic duty" or something and truely thought the moms in my LLL group who didn't vax or selectively vaxed were misinformed. I never said anything, as I figured MY baby being vaccinated would "protect" her from their kids. Or something.

 

I remember the original Mothering magazine, in the 80s and 90s and that was where a lot of the first info about actually making choices as a parent about what was shot into my children caused me concern. Then my oldest child suffered several vaccine related injuries. It caused me to do a LOT of research and to realize that the Status Quo has a lot wrong with it from my POV..

 

It's MY kids, it's MY choice. No one should be forced to take medical treatment or "prevention" that they don't consent to. We are supposed to be living in a free country.

 

I'm a bit flabbergasted at the venom of some of the people who attack and refuse to consider they might be wrong or that there are more than one way to do things, or who think that a well educated parent is "wrong" and should be forced to do certain things because "there's only ONE right way to do things." That's the kind of attitude that not only has caused me to take breaks from MDC but is at late causing me to block certain members who from what they post, do not embody what I see as Mothering's message. Fierce advocate of the child. That's what Peggy O'Mara said again and again in the magazine and that, along with birth choices, breastfeeding, Full Scale Attachment Parenting,  healthy diapering and toileting, healthy food and freedom to choose what we put or do not put into our children's bodies are what I see in Motherings original message. I have virtually every issue of Mothering from Number One (before Peggy bought the magazine) until the early 2000s. I learned a LOT from these pages and I do expect MDC to echo what Peggy originally was trying to discuss with us, teach us and talk with us about.

 

When I see that message either diluted or simply ignored, it upsets me. There are PLENTY of parenting boards for those who desire the Status Quo parenting experience. I can list at least 20 without even thinking. There are few boards that have a lot of members that support more "alternative" methods of parenting, and that's what I see as the main reason I come to MDC. If Status Quo parenting is what one desires. Why come to an "alternative" parenting board and then attack those who are practicing "alternative" parenting? I don't go to BabyCenter or The Stir and fight with people who Status Quo parent. Why would those who do not embody what Mothering means want to even BE here just to fight with the original concepts that the magazine covered and supported?

 

I just don't get it.

post #34 of 401
nm
post #35 of 401

I just don't think it makes any sense to post a thread asking for opinions from the other side, and then post rude and dismissive things about the other side in the thread while you wait for them to respond. And I think only the NV side could get away with that here. I'm not in favor of anyone being rude or dismissive towards others. Nor of anyone being forced into doing or not doing a certain thing for their kids... which actually makes me the oddball on a couple of pro-vax pages I follow on Facebook. 

 

If someone says "I find it rude when people do X", then "Well, other people do Y and Z and that's ruder" doesn't seem to be a very constructive response. Have any of you had the analogous conversation with your spouse or partner? "I don't like it when you do ______." "Well, I don't like it when you do ____ or ____ either." Usually that just ends up with everybody getting defensive and isn't productive. Same thing happens here, only more so. 

post #36 of 401
I agree with that. That's why I normally stay away from the debate forum... just sayin
post #37 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieLC View Post
 

If other people want to vac their kids on schedule, it isn't my business, but other posters are right when they say there are few places on the web where nonvaxers and selective vaxers can go for support.

 

I used to be a pretty gung ho vaxer. I thought it was my "civic duty" or something and truely thought the moms in my LLL group who didn't vax or selectively vaxed were misinformed. I never said anything, as I figured MY baby being vaccinated would "protect" her from their kids. Or something.

 

I remember the original Mothering magazine, in the 80s and 90s and that was where a lot of the first info about actually making choices as a parent about what was shot into my children caused me concern. Then my oldest child suffered several vaccine related injuries. It caused me to do a LOT of research and to realize that the Status Quo has a lot wrong with it from my POV..

 

It's MY kids, it's MY choice. No one should be forced to take medical treatment or "prevention" that they don't consent to. We are supposed to be living in a free country.

 

I'm a bit flabbergasted at the venom of some of the people who attack and refuse to consider they might be wrong or that there are more than one way to do things, or who think that a well educated parent is "wrong" and should be forced to do certain things because "there's only ONE right way to do things." That's the kind of attitude that not only has caused me to take breaks from MDC but is at late causing me to block certain members who from what they post, do not embody what I see as Mothering's message. Fierce advocate of the child. That's what Peggy O'Mara said again and again in the magazine and that, along with birth choices, breastfeeding, Full Scale Attachment Parenting,  healthy diapering and toileting, healthy food and freedom to choose what we put or do not put into our children's bodies are what I see in Motherings original message. I have virtually every issue of Mothering from Number One (before Peggy bought the magazine) until the early 2000s. I learned a LOT from these pages and I do expect MDC to echo what Peggy originally was trying to discuss with us, teach us and talk with us about.

 

When I see that message either diluted or simply ignored, it upsets me. There are PLENTY of parenting boards for those who desire the Status Quo parenting experience. I can list at least 20 without even thinking. There are few boards that have a lot of members that support more "alternative" methods of parenting, and that's what I see as the main reason I come to MDC. If Status Quo parenting is what one desires. Why come to an "alternative" parenting board and then attack those who are practicing "alternative" parenting? I don't go to BabyCenter or The Stir and fight with people who Status Quo parent. Why would those who do not embody what Mothering means want to even BE here just to fight with the original concepts that the magazine covered and supported?

 

I just don't get it.

 

So what exactly do you mean? Are you trying to say that mothering shouldn't host discussions on vaccines that aren't strictly anti/non vax?  

post #38 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3LilChunklins View Post

I agree with that. That's why I normally stay away from the debate forum... just sayin

Yeah, me too, but I get sucked in every once in a while. I'm sure I'm the only person who has that problem though. :wink

post #39 of 401

On the incredibly off chance anything good comes from this thread, I think the atmosphere here could be improved by:

 -people taking responsibility for their own words and apologising when they are out of line

-people ceding points occasionally

-remembering there is another human on the other side of the computer, and placing the human above the need to score points for your cause.  

 

Call me cynical, but I do not see the above happening.  

 

If I were asked today to vote on whether or not the debate board should be disbanded, I would vote yes.  We infight too much,  it is not temporary, it is not constructive, and I do not think the debate board is a source of good in this world.   


Edited by kathymuggle - 12/18/13 at 10:48am
post #40 of 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

So what exactly do you mean? Are you trying to say that mothering shouldn't host discussions on vaccines that aren't strictly anti/non vax?  


I said exactly what I mean.

 

Some people come here only to fight, never mention their own children, never participate in other discussions. Why do this? I don't agree with certain political ideas, but I don't seek out websites dedicated to what I don't agree with and go over there and fight with people. No, Mothering hosts debate boards, that's fine. I just see no reason to ONLY come here for that. You can if you like, but. I stated my opinion. I'm entitled to that.

 

It isn't the respectable debate that is the problem, it's the venom, vehemence, anger and outright viciousness from some that is.

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