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Thoughts on drinking/smoking weed while 2-3 months preg. - Page 3

post #41 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelsmama View Post
 

Unfortunately there is an active movement in some places to erode the rights of pregnant women, and many of the statements in your previous post share a very strong resemblance to the arguments that are being used. 

 

I have never heard of such a movement, and can assure you I have nothing to do with whatever you are referring to. I seriously hope that statement is not an accusation.

 

For example, you refer to the fetus as a human being, and while I completely understand why you would (I talk to my kids about what parts of their personalities became evident before they were born), the argument that fetuses are human beings is being used to try to remove women's rights.  Also, saying that "you are morally obligated to ensure the health and safety of that child" can be easily interpreted to mean that if the child isn't healthy it must be because of something the mother did. 

 

There are certain situations that a pregnant woman simply cannot help. Here is a personal example... I had gestational diabetes with my second pregnancy. Throughout the entire pregnancy, I did all that I could do to ensure my son would be safe and healthy. Guess what? Two minutes after he was born he went into respiratory arrest. He coded, and got taken away from me without any explanation as to what was happening. After almost 24 hours I got the diagnosis. Did I do anything to cause that? No. However, ask a woman if she caused her kid to have FAS because she drank excessively while pregnant. Or, ask a mother who smoked cigarettes like a chimney if she caused her baby to be of low birth weight because she was born prematurely. Yes, they caused that. All I have been saying is that it is the mother's responsibility to her child to do what she can to minimize risks. That is not removing someone's rights. That is simply doing the right thing. You bet your ass a mother is morally obligated to do the best she can to minimize health risks to her unborn child. I'm not discriminating against anyone by saying that. Nor am I classifying someone as a second-class citizen with what I have written on this thread. Here's another personal story... many, many years ago I worked in an inner city OB/Gyn office. I saw it all. I saw the consequences of mothers who didn't take care of themselves while they were pregnant. The outcomes of their callous and irresponsible behavior was hard to watch. So, yeah, this whole thread strikes a major nerve with me.

post #42 of 106
@erinmattsmom88 I think what people are objecting to is the message they are hearing in your posts that anyone who makes a different choice from yours is WRONG. And not only are they wrong, but they are a BAD MOTHER, and clearly don't love their baby as much as you love yours.

I don't know if this is the message you are trying to send, but it is what is coming across.
post #43 of 106

There is no safe amount of  alcohol 

 

Marijuana research is mixed.

 

You friend should look for other way to relax. Walks, meditation, therapy, TV etc.

 

You know what would be really stressful for your friend? Having a disabled child who needs a lot of extra care. What is also stressful is having you baby been taken by CPS because her tox screen is positive for weed.

post #44 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattie426 View Post

@erinmattsmom88 I think what people are objecting to is the message they are hearing in your posts that anyone who makes a different choice from yours is WRONG. And not only are they wrong, but they are a BAD MOTHER, and clearly don't love their baby as much as you love yours.

I don't know if this is the message you are trying to send, but it is what is coming across.

I'm not hearing that at all in any of her posts.
post #45 of 106

There are bad mothers and bad choices. Not everything is morally ambiguous.

 

Yes, it is her body and she should do what she feels like it but is silly to deny that there are no  possible consequences.

post #46 of 106

OP, as you can see from this thread there are plenty of people who would gladly throw you in jail for smoking a joint while pregnant. As a result it wold likely be in your interests to keep any and all drug use strictly to yourself, and to have an unassisted birth in order to avoid additional scrutiny, which is likely inevitable, particularly if you aren't white and are young and with a low income.

 

Good luck!

post #47 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattie426 View Post

@erinmattsmom88 I think what people are objecting to is the message they are hearing in your posts that anyone who makes a different choice from yours is WRONG. And not only are they wrong, but they are a BAD MOTHER, and clearly don't love their baby as much as you love yours.

I don't know if this is the message you are trying to send, but it is what is coming across.


Did you read my last post? I am stating facts that I have seen with my own eyes. I am not saying AT ALL that my choices are the best ones and everyone should conform to mine. You are reading into my posts what YOU WANT TO READ. Please go back and read again because you are dead wrong.

post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola P View Post
 

OP, as you can see from this thread there are plenty of people who would gladly throw you in jail for smoking a joint while pregnant. As a result it wold likely be in your interests to keep any and all drug use strictly to yourself, and to have an unassisted birth in order to avoid additional scrutiny, which is likely inevitable, particularly if you aren't white and are young and with a low income.

 

Good luck!


Who has said anything like this at all on this thread?

 

Wow, unbelievable.

post #49 of 106
I have to agree with erinmattsmom. she's just stating that for every action there is some sort of consquence...
I don't advocate throwing parent (or pregnant women) in jail unless they have committed and been convicted of a crime. My MIL smoked cigarettes and weed while pregnant with my DH, I don't think she deserves jail time for that, but I don't agree with that, don't recommend it, and certainly would not make such choices for me and my baby.
post #50 of 106

never mind

post #51 of 106

Here's the thing that's bugging me.  I feel like I'm hearing over and over, "But, I want to."  It sounds like I'm arguing with my nephew.  That's the best he's ever got, "But, but, but...I WANT to."

 

ViolaP, I understand that you are saying you are concerned that drawing a conservative line in the sand will cause loss of rights for women.  However, I find your posts to be the epitome of the use of a red herring.  Here we are arguing over whether or not a woman will go to jail for being less conservative than another, when what we were trying to discuss was whether or not pot smoking was harmful during pregnancy.  By distracting us with women's rights, you have boxed Erin in a corner.  She has to either agree with you, or hate women.  You have progressed to the use of a slippery slope, and ad hominem attacks.  Totally not a legit way to have a discussion.  Sorry.

 

Erin, I understand that you are saying that actions have consequences, and it would be foolish to ignore them.  Or to pretend like we didn't cause them.  And that, "But I want to" is immature and selfish.  It's not hindering rights to suggest that we ought not be selfish.  You didn't make the leap from morality to legislation. 

 

Back to the OP...

 

OP, please help your friend get some coping skills.  Maybe you can BE her coping.  People under extreme stress don't always need coping skills, sometimes they need help with stuff...like baby watching and dishes and etc.

 

Please help her learn to step away from substance based coping mechanisms, alcohol, weed, sex, other...

 

Please don't get confused about the import of this discussion.  If your friend chooses to smoke weed or drink alcohol during her pregnancy, she is not standing up for women's rights everywhere.  However, she may be harming her baby.  Just sayin'.

 

And having a little red wine after dinner like I have a bowl of ice cream isn't the same as using pot or weed for stress relief.

post #52 of 106
But I do want to be able to do things such as have an occasional glass of wine. I don't feel bad for wanting things, that's kinda the point.

I disagree that it's a red herring. I doubt that anyone protested when Beltran was arraigned which is likely because most people either feel like Erin does or are too afraid to stand up to people like that and risk being labeled a bad mother, or worse, risk suspicion from the state for daring to say that they matter too. It's great that you probably occupy a position of privilege where these two can be completely separate, but for me, working in the field, I see the opposite all the time.

Also, it seems inconsistent to me that you criticize me for using ad hominem attacks in the same paragraph that you imply I'm acting like a 4 year old.

This is all very sad to me. I really wish that we were more concerned with the gradual increasing reduction of the rights of pregnant women.
post #53 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola P View Post

But I do want to be able to do things such as have an occasional glass of wine. I don't feel bad for wanting things, that's kinda the point.

I disagree that it's a red herring.

It's odd to me that you criticize me for using admhinem attacks in the same paragraph that you imply I'm acting like a 4 year old.


No, actually, the whole first half of my post was explaining why your defending statements, to end of "whether or not women should smoke pot or drink alcohol for stress relief", weren't accurate.

 

1.) Because I want to. (My 4yo comment.  If you want to say it is an ad hominem attack, fine.  Subtract it, and I still have a point. It is actually a little different, though, because I am now explaining why your arguments don't sit right, and I am pointing out the base of your argument, which is inherently flawed.)

 

2.) Because women might lose rights. (red herring)

 

3.) Because if we set a standard, who knows where it will go. (slippery slope)

 

4.) Because Erin wants to "be puritanical and judgmental" without being called names. (ad hominem)

post #54 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola P View Post

But I do want to be able to do things such as have an occasional glass of wine. I don't feel bad for wanting things, that's kinda the point.

I disagree that it's a red herring. I doubt that anyone protested when Beltran was arraigned which is likely because most people either feel like Erin does or are too afraid to stand up to people like that and risk being labeled a bad mother, or worse, risk suspicion from the state for daring to say that they matter too. It's great that you probably occupy a position of privilege where these two can be completely separate, but for me, working in the field, I see the opposite all the time.

Also, it seems inconsistent to me that you criticize me for using ad hominem attacks in the same paragraph that you imply I'm acting like a 4 year old.

This is all very sad to me. I really wish that we were more concerned with the gradual increasing reduction of the rights of pregnant women.

You have edited.

 

You have stated your position clearly, and would probably be best served in another thread: "I really wish that we were more concerned....pregnant women." 

 

Because, here, again, you have drawn a line in the sand between what we are saying, and what you are saying.  None of us are asking that a women be jailed for her choices...mostly.  But I do believe that people who harm children, born or not, ought to be punished, or, at the very least prevented from further harm to said child.  I don't know what kind of alternate reality you live in, but we are all interconnected.  The damage caused to an individual by his or her parent's choices can have lifelong consequences of devastation, both to the child, the family, and further, to society. 

 

Going back to MY original premise.

 

OP, are you tired of me yet?  Sorry your thread was hijacked.  Sorry the whole discussion is muddled.  Perhaps you and your friend would like to do some reading, as Viola has suggested, on women's rights during pregnancy, and come to your own conclusions as to how you feel about our cultural environment, remembering that the use of any substance for stress relief may have an adverse effect on the unborn.

post #55 of 106

tiphat.gif  I'm done.

 

Good luck, OP.

post #56 of 106
I believe that it's important to prevent actual harm from occurring to children who are born.
I do not believe that it is ever moral or right to detain or otherwise restrict a pregnant woman out if concerns about how her actions might impact her fetus. I draw a very firm and immovable line between those who are born and those who are not. Of course, as I said earlier, I believe that pregnant women have moral obligations towards their fetus, but I don't believe that fetuses have any rights separate legal interests from their mothers.
post #57 of 106
This article summarizes the main problems with the fetus as separate and with rights approach, and I agree with pretty much everything in it:

http://m.acog.org/Resources_And_Publications/Committee_Opinions/Committee_on_Ethics/Maternal_Decision_Making_Ethics_and_the_Law?IsMobileSet=true
post #58 of 106

"She was wondering how much alcohol can she consume before it hurt the baby?

or smoke weed?"

 

The above is a quote from the OP, and those are questions that would worry me.  However, it seems to me that the conversation has been distorted from that question to one of whether we must stop all prior activities when we become pregnant.  For me, that's not really a question of "because I want it and because I have rights, but that I find the suggestion that I not have a bit of wine or a bit of sushi to be ridiculous and extremely North American-centric.  A glass of wine? meh - simply because this is frowned upon in North American society doesn't mean that there's a whole pile of women in other parts of the world who are somehow of diminished potential as mothers because it is not only common, but wholly acceptable, to drink lightly from time to time during pregnancy.  Likewise, the "no sushi" argument is culturally constructed by societies where raw fish is a novelty, but consider: was sushi recently invented?  Are there no areas of the world where women regularly consume raw fish (or unpasteurized dairy)? 

 

As for the no swimming in the ocean suggestion, I had never heard of that and would find that a difficult "prohibition" to take seriously.  As a PP said, are we to judge an activity that is so common in other parts of the world, or suggest that mothers-to-be that swim in an ocean are somehow less concerned with maternal outcomes than someone like me, landlocked on the Canadian Prairies?  That doesn't feel right.  I get it that people want to do what's best for baby, but some of this stuff just feels silly, for me.  Maybe not for other posters, and that's fine, but for me, I'm not convinced that to avoid these activities is to really move into a higher realm of harm reduction for my fetus.  By suggesting that a mother that has a glass of wine or eats some tekka maki is somehow being selfish, or being less caring about her pregnancy is something that I construe as placing judgment on where the mother is coming from in the first place.  If a mother to be perceives risk in those activities, then I suppose one could argue that to do it anyway is to act regardless of your belief in their riskiness.  Maybe that's selfish, but it all depends on what level of risk is attributed to those activities - if any.  I don't think we can simply write off driving as "inevitable" but judge another mother who sees no risk in other activities that are, at best, marginally risky.  I rarely drive, being lucky enough to walk to work, but I certainly do eat sushi and drink small glasses of wine or beer, from time to time.  I guess my point is that there are some comments made here that are judgmental and entirely based on the poster's belief of what is a risk.  I define risk in a different manner, and I don't believe that another woman, of a different cultural viewpoint, has a right to consider culturally normal behaviour to be selfish or inappropriate simply because it is not a part of what their culture (and I'm using culture loosely here - not saying all North Americans ascribe to the same value system, or that anyone's normative cultural values should be disrespected).  I doubt that a lot of pregnant women in Japan are fraught over whether or not to eat sushi.  I doubt that many women in Tahiti are steering clear of the ocean because they are growing a baby.  I also doubt that those women care any less about their pregnancies, or remaining healthy, than the average North American woman does.

 

Getting back to the OP's question, she said her friend only wanted a few shots (or something like that)...that's not a glass of wine.  And asking "how much" one can consume and linking that to only wanting a few shots is concerning to me.  I deal with people with FASD and I have training in that area.  It is a serious, lifelong disability that is usually seen where hard liquor is being consumed in quantities beyond one drink at a time.  So, if we are focussed on the OP's actual question, I agree with the general sentiment that her friend needs help, and probably not from a bottle or a bong.  And her question was a far cry from what this discussion has become.  Sorry for the long post.

 

I'm not trying to attack any of the previous posters in this thread:  I'm only trying to suggest that terms like "selfish" and "sacrifice" are very loaded terms that should be cautiously, if ever, used to describe another mother or one's own behaviour.


Edited by manysplinters - 1/14/14 at 9:42am
post #59 of 106
Smoking crack and getting hammered while pregnant is not only immoral but is also very sad. I think any woman who would do that needs our compassion and our help more than anything, and not our judgement. I think if we valued empathy more as a culture that would be hugely beneficial to everyone, including babies. I work with these women and they are people too. They have souls and mostly mean well, even though you'd never know it without spending some time with them.

As an aside, I think in our society intelligence is overrated and kindness is underrated.

We need to be kinder and more understanding of one another, despite our differences.
post #60 of 106
Viola never said that OP's friend should drink and smoke as much as she wants, or that a mother's whims are more important than her baby.  Nor did she advocate for everyone to drink a bottle of wine every night for their entire pregnancy.  In fact, she suggested that the friend should NOT use these substances if she has poor self control surrounding their use.  She IS saying (I think) that each mother should be able to make her own choices about the level of risk she is comfortable with, and make the best decision for herself and her baby.  Of course this is all "within reason."  The problem is that "within reason" has not been defined.  Many people seem to feel strongly that "within reason" means "none at all."  I disagree, and would ask that, before they sit in judgement on me or others, they back up their passionately held conviction with some evidence.  There IS a disturbing trend toward the rights of the baby trumping the rights of the mom.  A trend that says, "we must do what is best for baby regardless of the risks to mom."  I really think this trend is what Viola is trying to point out.  There is often a trade off between parent's wants/needs and their children's wants/needs.

Edited by mattie426 - 1/14/14 at 10:33am
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