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Over a dozen people on life support in Michigan from the flu - Page 2

post #21 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

Really?  What gives you such certainty? Do you have first-hand knowledge of his medical history?  

How do you know that he didn't have an unusual autoimmune or inflammatory reaction to the vaccine that subsequently spiraled out of control over the next few weeks?  How do you know his immune system didn't have an unusual (or perhaps not so unusual) reaction to the flu vaccine, that left him unable to cope with the croup, if it even was croup--remember, many doctors incorrectly assume it can't be pertussis if the child was fully vaccinated, and don't even consider pertussis as a possible diagnosis. How do you know that he didn't have any underlying autoimmune disorders that might have contraindicated a flu shot?

 

Fact: you DON'T know.

 

We can't say with any certainty that he died because of the shot, but we can't say that it wasn't a causal factor, either.

 

We do know that the doctor who diagnosed croup gave him steroids to help him breathe.  That's right, steroids--which would inhibit or even shut down his ability to fight influenza, croup, pertussis, and pretty much any other virus or bacteria. So within a few weeks, an apparently healthy child was given at least one vaccine (the flu shot), maybe more, and then steroids--and then he died.  

Gee, I wonder if they gave him Tamiflu on top of everything else after they decided that he had H1N1?

 

How very unscientific of you insist on ruling out a possible factor with absolutely no evidence.  But at least you are consistent: you consistently ignore the findings by the Cochrane group that the flu shot is ineffective in children.

 

Because that makes no sense.  The first sentence in the article is "Doctors confirm an Oregon boy, 5, has died from the H1N1 virus. "  He died from the flu.  Not from the flumist given to him a month earlier. 

 

In a different article his mother says that both her and her husband were recovering from the flu when he started getting sick.  He was clearly exposed.  

 

Occam's razor. 

post #22 of 40

Well they certainly aren't going to come out and say he died from the measures taken to rid him of the flu, that might make the flu look like less of a bully and put the medical community and their pharmaceutical measures in the spotlight....

 

edited to add: No, haven't gotten a flu shot (ever) nor would I or anyone in my immediate family

post #23 of 40
Where does it say he got the Mist? Maybe I missed it?
post #24 of 40
NM: I see it now. However I do agree that we don't know if getting Vax'ed contributed to his untimely death.

This concerns the shot vs. the mist but could be relevant:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519172045.htm
post #25 of 40

I didn't see a reference to flu mist either.  I did see the kptv article says, "Calandra Burgess says all three of her kids got their flu shots this November, so she was surprised when her youngest son, Ronan, got sick."

 

If it was indeed a flu SHOT that he got, he might have gotten a reaction.


​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu--usually mild cases, but not necessarily.  It's contraindicated for pregnant women and for children under 2.   And it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist.
 

post #26 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

I didn't see a reference to flu mist either.  I did see the kptv article says, "Calandra Burgess says all three of her kids got their flu shots this November, so she was surprised when her youngest son, Ronan, got sick."

 

If it was indeed a flu SHOT that he got, he might have gotten a reaction.


​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu--usually mild cases, but not necessarily.  It's contraindicated for pregnant women and for children under 2.   And it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist.
 

http://www.kval.com/news/local/5-year-old-dies-of-flu-complications-Vaccines-arent--238797891.html

 

"Calandra Burgess said her son Ronan received the flu vaccine in November. 

"All thee of my Children had the nasal spray. My other two kids didn't get sick at all," said Burgess.

You're wrong. The flumist does not cause the flu.  

 

"Can the nasal spray flu vaccine give you the flu?

No. While the nasal spray flu vaccine does contain live viruses (unlike the flu shot), the viruses are attenuated (weakened) and cannot cause flu illness. The weakened viruses are cold-adapted, which means they are designed to only cause infection at the cooler temperatures found within the nose. The viruses cannot infect the lungs or other areas where warmer temperatures exist." 

Bolding not mine.  http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/nasalspray.htm#give-you-the-flu

post #27 of 40

I'm wondering about the impact of the steroid treatment on a 5-year-old with h1n1, regardless of the source of infection.

 

If steroids inhibit immune response, it seems to me that this was a case of medical malpractice; the doctor didn't bother to test for influenza because they were already beyond the 24-hour window for Tamiflu effectiveness (though we don't know whether Tamiflu was eventually administered in the hospital).  That's ridiculous--the doctor should have wanted to know if they were dealing with influenza or not.

 

Of course, instead of malpractice, this tragic case is being used as fodder for fear monger/marketing for the flu shot.

post #28 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 


​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu--usually mild cases, but not necessarily. 
 

 

"

Transmission of the live attenuated virus strains in FluMist Quadrivalent does not result in illness in others1,8

TRANSMISSION ≠ ILLNESS

Shedding can result in transmission, but does not result in illness in others1,8

  • Like the influenza virus, the vaccine virus can also be transmitted to an unvaccinated individual1,8
  •  
  • However, the vaccine virus has been engineered not to cause illness1,8
  •  
  • The shed virus must regain its ability to replicate at the higher temperatures of the lungs in order for illness to occur4,5
  •  
  • The virus must revert back to wild type to produce illness4,5
  •    -With at least 5 attenuating points in each strain, the odds of reversion to wild-type influenza are 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (one in 100 quintillion) replication cycles (1x1020 replication cycles), more than a millennium in time4,5
  •     -No cases of reversion to wild type have been reported to date1

 

FluMist Quadrivalent may be used by those eligible recipients who have close contact with immunocompromised persons 9" 

https://www.flumistquadrivalent.com/hcp/live_attenuated_vaccine.html

Again, Occam's Razor.  You are talking about a 1 in 100 *QUINTILLION* event (the flumist shedding and reverting back to wild type virus, thus giving one of his parents the full blown flu, who then in turn give him the full blown flu)  VS  Being one of the unfortunate people who the flumist didn't completely protect and after being exposed to his parent's flu virus, caught it and tragically died.   I'll go with the latter. 

post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Again, Occam's Razor.  You are talking about a 1 in 100 *QUINTILLION* event (the flumist shedding and reverting back to wild type virus, thus giving one of his parents the full blown flu, who then in turn give him the full blown flu)  VS  Being one of the unfortunate people who the flumist didn't completely protect and after being exposed to his parent's flu virus, caught it and tragically died.   I'll go with the latter. 

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor from William of Ockham (c. 1287 – 1347), and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. (Wikipedia)

 

​So let's go back to your original assumption:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Worry me in what way? The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die.  The story is very tragic but I have never argued, nor have I ever heard a PVer argue that vaccines are 100% effective in 100% of people who receive them.   But the fact remains that most children who die from the flu have not received their flu vaccine.  We had a thread about this a couple months ago. 

 

As I said in my previous response (which you ignored), you have no way of knowing whether or not the vaccine was a causal factor in his death.

 

What are the side effects of FluMist?
 

Well, the FluMist website has very limited information.

"Children under 2 years old have an increased risk of wheezing (difficulty with breathing) after getting FluMist Quadrivalent.

Who may not be able to get FluMist Quadrivalent?

Tell your healthcare provider if you or your child are currently wheezing; have a history of wheezing if under 5 years old; have had Guillain-Barré syndrome; have a weakened immune system or live with someone who has a severely weakened immune system; have problems with your heart, kidneys, or lungs; have diabetes; are pregnant or nursing; or are taking Tamiflu®, Relenza®, amantadine, or rimantadine."

 

Rxlist.com has more extensive information:

"Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids."

and

"Call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

  • severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); or
  • high fever, chills, body aches, flu symptoms."

 

So the manufacturer KNOWS that severe adverse effects can occur 2 to 4 weeks after vaccination.

 

And teacozy wants to assume that "the vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die." 

post #30 of 40
Quote:
And teacozy wants to assume that "the vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die." 

 

get the vaccine or the mist, get the flu and STILL die --------------nothing to worry about! 

post #31 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

 

Rxlist.com has more extensive information:

"Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids."

and

"Call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

  • severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); or
  • high fever, chills, body aches, flu symptoms."

 

So the manufacturer KNOWS that severe adverse effects can occur 2 to 4 weeks after vaccination.

 

And teacozy wants to assume that "the vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die." 

 

I don't have much time to respond but first of all, my response was to your assertion that his parents might have contracted the flu from his flumist shedding.  You said "​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu...and it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist."  

 

Second of all, you put a period after "Flumist may interact with steroids" when there isn't one on RXlist.com.  What it says is "Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids, medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders, or medications to treat autoimmune disorders. Tell your doctor all medications and supplements you take and other vaccines you have recently received." http://www.rxlist.com/flumist-side-effects-drug-center.htm

 

It doesn't say anywhere that I could find that steroids should not be given a month after the flumist, just that they shouldn't be taken in conjunction/right before the vaccine. The reason is that steroids weaken the immune system.  So I would like a link/some evidence that giving a steroid a month after the flumist is contraindicated. 

 

"Before receiving FluMist, tell the doctor about all other vaccines you have recently received.

Also tell the doctor if you have recently received drugs or treatments that can weaken the immune system, including:

  • an oral, nasal, inhaled, or injectable steroid medicine;

  • medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders; or

  • medicines to treat or prevent organ transplant rejection.

If you are using any of these medications, you may not be able to receive the vaccine, or may need to wait until the other treatments are finished." 

 

"severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); "

And where does it say he suffered any of these symptoms? This wasn't in any article I read.  Again, you are just grasping at any straw you can to blame the vaccine when in reality it was the flu that killed him.  His mother, doctors, medical professionals all said he died FROM THE FLU.  Are you really trying to argue that you know more about his cause of death that his doctors and parents?  Wow.  

post #32 of 40
Quote:

 

From the article on the Oregon boy:

 

"I think it's a good way to keep his memory alive, to get his story out and let it be known that vaccination or not, if your child has a fever and flu like symptoms, they need to be seen by a doctor. That's something my son would agree with I think, to help other people."

 

I think it is a fair message.  Vaccinated or not, you can get the flu.

I also think, particularly given the flu vaccines less than stellar efficacy rate, we need to focus on non-vaccine ways to prevent the flu and how to treat it properly if you get it.

post #33 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

I don't have much time to respond but first of all, my response was to your assertion that his parents might have contracted the flu from his flumist shedding.  You said "​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu...and it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist."  

 

Second of all, you put a period after "Flumist may interact with steroids" when there isn't one on RXlist.com.  What it says is "Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids, medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders, or medications to treat autoimmune disorders. Tell your doctor all medications and supplements you take and other vaccines you have recently received." http://www.rxlist.com/flumist-side-effects-drug-center.htm

 

It doesn't say anywhere that I could find that steroids should not be given a month after the flumist, just that they shouldn't be taken in conjunction/right before the vaccine. The reason is that steroids weaken the immune system.  So I would like a link/some evidence that giving a steroid a month after the flumist is contraindicated. 

 

"Before receiving FluMist, tell the doctor about all other vaccines you have recently received.

Also tell the doctor if you have recently received drugs or treatments that can weaken the immune system, including:

  • an oral, nasal, inhaled, or injectable steroid medicine;

  • medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders; or

  • medicines to treat or prevent organ transplant rejection.

If you are using any of these medications, you may not be able to receive the vaccine, or may need to wait until the other treatments are finished." 

 

"severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); "

And where does it say he suffered any of these symptoms? This wasn't in any article I read.  Again, you are just grasping at any straw you can to blame the vaccine when in reality it was the flu that killed him.  His mother, doctors, medical professionals all said he died FROM THE FLU.  Are you really trying to argue that you know more about his cause of death that his doctors and parents?  Wow.  

I'm saying that the manufacturer admits that the vaccine can have adverse effects 2-4 weeks AFTER the vaccine is given, and that it can have interactions with steroids, and other things as well.  Unusual weakness in arms and legs?  That sounds like a neurological reaction. Are you such an expert that you can be absolutely sure that those interactions can't EVER take place 2-4 weeks post-vaccination?

 

I'm saying that giving steroids to a child whose immune system is already not dealing effectively with flu symptoms may be malpractice, because inhibiting or shutting off the immune system right when the immune system needs to be fighting a virus is not going to have a happy ending.  


I'm saying that we don't know what role the flu vaccine played in his death.  Don't try to turn it on me--you're the one who said  "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

I'm saying that giving steroids to a child whose immune system is already not dealing effectively with flu symptoms may be malpractice, because inhibiting or shutting off the immune system right when the immune system needs to be fighting a virus is not going to have a happy ending.  

The doses of oral steroids that are typically given to help with respiratory inflammation aren't really high enough to cause much immunosuppression. There could theoretically be a bit, but the benefits to breathing are probably considered to outweigh the immune drawbacks in this situation. I doubt this would be malpractice. 

post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post
 

I doubt this would be malpractice. 

I doubt it's helpful to misdiagnose, and send someone home from the ER - sounds a lot like the recent case in Wales of the young man that was also sent home from the ER and misdiagnosed when he really had measles- he also later died from improper care. 

post #36 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 


I'm saying that we don't know what role the flu vaccine played in his death.  Don't try to turn it on me--you're the one who said  "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

 

Yes we do, because we know his cause of death.  He didn't die from "unknown causes".  His doctors, medical professionals, and family have confirmed that he died from the H1N1 virus.  The statement is not "It is suspected that he died from H1N1". That is what he died from, end of story.  Since we know the vaccine cannot give him H1N1 we know that the vaccine played no role in his death.  Again, are you really trying to argue that you know more about the circumstances of his death than his doctors and parents? 

post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Yes we do, because we know his cause of death.  He didn't die from "unknown causes".  His doctors, medical professionals, and family have confirmed that he died from the H1N1 virus.  The statement is not "It is suspected that he died from H1N1". That is what he died from, end of story.  Since we know the vaccine cannot give him H1N1 we know that the vaccine played no role in his death.  Again, are you really trying to argue that you know more about the circumstances of his death than his doctors and parents?

 

As it has been pointed out, it's the presumption that the vaccine played absolutely no part in his death that is objectionable.  I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death, but we don't know for absolutely certain that his flu vax didn't play a part in his death.  Personally, I wonder if he would have received proper diagnosis, and proper treatment, sooner if he hadn't had a flu vaccine.  It's not very common for a five-year-old with access to medical care to die from the flu, so it's not unreasonable to speculate about what could have contributed, even in a minor way, to his death.

 

ETA: Also, the article that Turquesa linked to up-thread (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2010/04/new-canadian-studies-suggest-seasonal-flu-shot-increased-h1n1-risk) seems applicable.  It's hard to say what factor(s) made this kid's symptoms deadly, instead of just very serious.


Edited by rachelsmama - 1/7/14 at 11:44am
post #38 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelsmama View Post
 

 

As it has been pointed out, it's the presumption that the vaccine played absolutely no part in his death that is objectionable.  I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death, but we don't know for absolutely certain that his flu vax didn't play a part in his death.  Personally, I wonder if he would have received proper diagnosis, and proper treatment, sooner if he hadn't had a flu vaccine.  It's not very common for a five-year-old with access to medical care to die from the flu, so it's not unreasonable to speculate about what could have contributed, even in a minor way, to his death.

 

ETA: Also, the article that Turquesa linked to up-thread (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2010/04/new-canadian-studies-suggest-seasonal-flu-shot-increased-h1n1-risk) seems applicable.  It's hard to say what factor(s) made this kid's symptoms deadly, instead of just very serious.

 

Just a quick reply because this is getting silly. 

 

"I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death..."  So we agree then.  Because that was my exact statement as pointed out by Taximom "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

 

It's like if somewhere in an article the mother says "He was just fine a few days earlier. He was eating pasta and bread sticks and acting completely normal"  and then someone asked " Does the fact that he ate pasta and bread sticks worry you?"  and I replied "Why would that worry me? He certainly didn't die because he ate pasta and bread sticks. He died from the flu."  And then the response was "How do you know that?! It could have played some role. Maybe he picked up the flu virus while at the grocery store with his mom getting the tomato sauce and noodles!"   While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the pasta and bread sticks did not *cause* him to die.  He died from the flu. 

 

There is absolutely *no* evidence that the flu vaccine caused his death, which was my original statement. 

 

As far as the article, did you even read it?  It wasn't exactly glowing.  "But the authors warn that, since all four studies were observational, even careful design cannot rule out the possibility that some undetected methodologic bias affected the results. That caution is echoed in a companion editorial, written by US researchers unconnected to the Canadian study, who cite the contradictory results of six other studies conducted in Mexico, Australia, and the United States at the same time as the Canadian ones. Four of those studies found no association between seasonal flu vaccination and pandemic flu illness, while the two done in Mexico paradoxically found that seasonal flu shots may have had a protective effect."

 

This is a pretty classic example of the cherry picking fallacy.  Also, the article was talking about injected flu vaccines, not nasal spray. 

post #39 of 40

Teacozy, you're missing the point.

post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelsmama View Post
 

Teacozy, you're missing the point.

:laugh

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