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Unvaccinated Kids with Autism Spectrum Disorders - Page 2

post #21 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

 

Do you have links to case reports of unvaccinated children who develop regressive autism (losing skills overnight)?  I have not seen any.


Interesting how you phrased your second sentence.  Most of the pro-vaxxers insist that it's never the vaccinations, except when it is --  like Ryan Mojabi, Emily Moller, Hannah Poling, Bailey Banks, whose cases of vaccine-induced regressive autism were all conceded and compensated by the US Department of Health and Human Services.


It's worth noting that Ryan's and Emily's cases were conceded and compensated only a year ago.

 

The children I know have not been written up in journals. But I know them personally. And they have autism. And they are unvaccinated. 

post #22 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren View Post
 

 

The children I know have not been written up in journals. But I know them personally. And they have autism. And they are unvaccinated. 

 

I believe you--I'm sure there are some out there!

Do you mind if I ask some more questions about them?

 

Do they specifically have REGRESSIVE autism?  They were developing normally and suddenly lost speech and other skills sometime during their second year? Or did they have developmental issues all along?  Do you happen to know if the mom breastfed, and if so, for how long? 

 

Also, if you know the family, did the mother happen to have dental work done during pregnancy, and/or was she given Rhogam during her pregnancy (I 'm assuming the children are in the same family?  Or not?).

 

I'm not doubting you at all.  I'm asking out of curiosity.  I've met a lot of parents (IRL) of autistic kids, and haven't met one yet whose autistic kid was completely unvaccinated. The only one who came close was someone who said that her child was unvaccinated--and it turned out that he did receive all scheduled vaccines up until it was time for the MMR, and THEN she stopped.  And she called that "unvaccinated."

post #23 of 185
Thread Starter 

In the one situation there were no vaccinations of any kind and yes it was regressive autism. The parents were role models for us; had turned us on to home birth, not vaccinating, etc. One of the parents is a holistic health professional with lifelong interest in natural health. Very good nutrition, the latest in holistic health for the whole family. I am not sure if the mom had any dental work; I doubt it because their whole philosophy was natural health and healing. The mom breastfed at least until age 2, all her children (I wasn't paying attention after that, could have been longer). 

 

 I believe the grieving process was that much worse because in their minds they had done everything "right," and still had a child with very significant ASD. 

 

It has shaken things for me as well, because most other situations I have known with children on the spectrum, there was the standard vaccine schedule. 

 

I don't know a lot of details of the other situations as deeply as I do the one I have described. 

post #24 of 185

Very interesting, thanks for responding.

post #25 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren View Post
 

 

 

 I believe the grieving process was that much worse because in their minds they had done everything "right," and still had a child with very significant ASD. 

 

I find this interesting.  See, I find comfort in knowing I have done everything I could.  I would feel very guilty if I felt my actions contributed to my childs difficulty.

 

True example:  My first was born and was stressed out from labour.  I think my labour was somewhat mismanaged and I did a lousy job of setting up a good birth team, advocating for myself, etc. I felt tremendous guilt over his stress.  

 

OTOH, my youngest ended up with a birth defect, and spent the first 10 days of her life in the NICU.  I have no guilt over that, and actually only feel pride that I was able to give her the best start in life through doing my best during pregnancy and birth.

 

Bad stuff happens - and sometimes it happens to you.  Our actions cannot always change that - but I like to know I did my best to stack the deck in their favour.


Edited by kathymuggle - 1/15/14 at 9:29am
post #26 of 185
I've been in both situations.

I remember feeling terribly angry after my miscarriage, especially knowing that women who drank, smoked, did drugs, etc., still managed to carry a child to term, while I did "everything right" and still wound up miscarrying.

But that was far, far easier than realizing that my children had vaccine reactions because I foolishly trusted that the doctor/nurse knew enough about vaccine reaction to address one when it happened, and to prevent further reactions down the line. Yes, a good part of the responsibility goes to them, becauSe they DIDN'T know, and they should have--but ultimately, I had the power to say no, and didn't until damage was already done.

There seems to be a common misunderstanding that parents if vaccine-injured children are looking for someone or something to blame. I think most people don't realize the load of guilt parents carry around when they realize that a procedure they agreed to ended up harming their child, and that what is most important to the parent (after making sure that their child is taken care of) is to prevent the same harm from happening to someone else's child.
Edited by Taximom5 - 1/18/14 at 8:24pm
post #27 of 185
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

 

 

Bad stuff happens - and sometimes it happens to you.  Our actions cannot always change that - but I like to know I did my best to stack the deck in their favour.

 

Yes. My friends did everything to stack the deck in their favor. Superior nutrition, home birth, no vaccinations, chiropractic care from birth. I didn't say they felt guilty. Shocked, powerless, angry maybe....because they did all the right things, and their child developed autism anyway. It defied everything they believed about wellness at that time. 

post #28 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren View Post
 

 

Yes. My friends did everything to stack the deck in their favor. Superior nutrition, home birth, no vaccinations, chiropractic care from birth. I didn't say they felt guilty. Shocked, powerless, angry maybe....because they did all the right things, and their child developed autism anyway. It defied everything they believed about wellness at that time. 

 

So has their theory about what causes autism changed?  I'm just really curious.  

post #29 of 185
Thread Starter 

I'm not really sure. The parents did not stay together and it's kind of a sensitive subject. 

post #30 of 185

Germline exposures.

 

http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.com/p/research-on-germline-exposure.html

post #31 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren View Post
 
 

 

The children I know have not been written up in journals. But I know them personally. And they have autism. And they are unvaccinated. 

Pardon me, but is this not anecdotal evidence, the kind of evidence that nonvaxers get pegged with?

post #32 of 185
Quote:
 and/or was she given Rhogam during her pregnancy (I 'm assuming the children are in the same family?  Or not?).

Many case studies show that autistics' mothers were Rh-, received rhogam during pregnancy.  The cases I read were from the 1990s, when rhogam had thimerasol in it.

post #33 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

 

I believe you--I'm sure there are some out there!

Do you mind if I ask some more questions about them?

 

Do they specifically have REGRESSIVE autism?  They were developing normally and suddenly lost speech and other skills sometime during their second year? Or did they have developmental issues all along?  Do you happen to know if the mom breastfed, and if so, for how long? 

 

Also, if you know the family, did the mother happen to have dental work done during pregnancy, and/or was she given Rhogam during her pregnancy (I 'm assuming the children are in the same family?  Or not?).

 

I'm not doubting you at all.  I'm asking out of curiosity.  I've met a lot of parents (IRL) of autistic kids, and haven't met one yet whose autistic kid was completely unvaccinated. The only one who came close was someone who said that her child was unvaccinated--and it turned out that he did receive all scheduled vaccines up until it was time for the MMR, and THEN she stopped.  And she called that "unvaccinated."

 

Hi! You weren't talking to me, but as a parent of 2 completely unvaxed autistic kids I thought I'd weigh in. :)

 

My oldest child has an official diagnosis of "classic regressive autism" although he never really "regressed"...he was autistic from birth and has comorbid diagnosis' of insomnia and adhd. My middle child has aspergers.

I breastfed my oldest for 2.5 years and my middle for 2 years. We've always been very holistic, organic, etc. They've never been vaccinated, circumcised, formula fed, etc. My oldest has only had antibiotics a couple times and my middle has never had antibiotics.

I didn't have dental work or rhogam. I had all of them out of the hospital, last two at home. All were water births, no drugs, delayed cord clamping, etc.

 

I've been accused of working for "big pharma" by "lying about my unvaxed kids having autism", despite the fact that I am openly  antivax.

post #34 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by micah_mae_ View Post
 

 

Hi! You weren't talking to me, but as a parent of 2 completely unvaxed autistic kids I thought I'd weigh in. :)

 

My oldest child has an official diagnosis of "classic regressive autism" although he never really "regressed"...he was autistic from birth and has comorbid diagnosis' of insomnia and adhd. My middle child has aspergers.

I breastfed my oldest for 2.5 years and my middle for 2 years. We've always been very holistic, organic, etc. They've never been vaccinated, circumcised, formula fed, etc. My oldest has only had antibiotics a couple times and my middle has never had antibiotics.

I didn't have dental work or rhogam. I had all of them out of the hospital, last two at home. All were water births, no drugs, delayed cord clamping, etc.

 

I've been accused of working for "big pharma" by "lying about my unvaxed kids having autism", despite the fact that I am openly  antivax.

 

Isn't your husband in the military?  How on earth did you get out of vaccines for your children?  My military friends tell me that that's absolutely impossible, as they were unable to get approval from whatever military officials who approve such things. I'm sure they'd love any suggestions you have!

 

Also, as a member of the military, your husband would have been subject to way more vaccines than most fathers, including experimental ones.  My understanding is that the autism rate is extremely high in military families.

post #35 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

Also, as a member of the military, your husband would have been subject to way more vaccines than most fathers, including experimental ones.  My understanding is that the autism rate is extremely high in military families.

 

See this is why a "vax vs non vax" study would be a waste of time.   The goal posts are constantly being moved.  I've seen it on these forums and in others as well. It used to be that NVers only wanted a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study.  As more and more people come forward as having unvaccinated children with autism, or personally knowing unvaccinated children with autism, the criteria is being changed.  The goal post then gets moved to "well, I bet the mother was vaccinated as a child".  Or "I bet she had dental work done, or got the flu vaccine during pregnancy, or a rhogam shot."   And now the goal post is being moved *again*!  Now the FATHER being vaccinated might explain it. 

 

For pete's sake.   For a study to satisfy a NVer that is convinced vaccines cause autism you would have to find not only a child that hasn't ever received a single vaccine, but a child whose mother and father have also never received any childhood vaccines.  The mother also couldn't have had any flu vaccines in her entire life, and especially not while pregnant.  The mother also couldn't have had a rhogam shot. Or dental work done.  And apparently military families should be be excluded too.   What if the grandparents were military and heavily vaccinated? Great grandparents?  When does the goal post stop moving? 

 

How many people that fit this criteria do you actually think exist in the US? 

post #36 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

See this is why a "vax vs non vax" study would be a waste of time.   The goal posts are constantly being moved.  I've seen it on these forums and in others as well. It used to be that NVers only wanted a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study.  As more and more people come forward as having unvaccinated children with autism, or personally knowing unvaccinated children with autism, the criteria is being changed.  The goal post then gets moved to "well, I bet the mother was vaccinated as a child".  Or "I bet she had dental work done, or got the flu vaccine during pregnancy, or a rhogam shot."   And now the goal post is being moved *again*!  Now the FATHER being vaccinated might explain it. 

 

For pete's sake.   For a study to satisfy a NVer that is convinced vaccines cause autism you would have to find not only a child that hasn't ever received a single vaccine, but a child whose mother and father have also never received any childhood vaccines.  The mother also couldn't have had any flu vaccines in her entire life, and especially not while pregnant.  The mother also couldn't have had a rhogam shot. Or dental work done.  And apparently military families should be be excluded too.   What if the grandparents were military and heavily vaccinated? Great grandparents?  When does the goal post stop moving? 

 

How many people that fit this criteria do you actually think exist in the US? 

Actually, teacozy, you are the one moving the goal posts here.  

So a lot of people whose children had vaccine reactions think that there is a link between vaccines and autism.

 

You are trying to insist that it's a coincidence that an unvaccinated autistic child whose father just happened to be heavily vaccinated with experimental vaccines (maybe right around the time of conception?!)  and that there's no possible link to a vaccine-autism connection?

Talk about unscientific...

post #37 of 185
Moving goalposts are classic for the main worries. It used to be MMR was the main problem, then thimerosol, now aluminium?

It's good to be suspicious of medicines and/or substances put into our bodies, but in my opinion it goes beyond that when medical and scientific consensus is repeatedly ignored.

Micah_mae - I'm sorry to hear your story. Sound tough to have 2 kids with autism. I'm especially sorry that you've been getting nasty comments from some in the antivax community for sharing.
post #38 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Of course it happens.  Do you honestly think that there are zero unvaccinated children with autism? 

It makes sense when people say " I don't know any completely unvaccinated children with autism"  because that represents a tiny fraction of the population.  I don't know any completely unvaccinated children that have been in a car accident, either.  Nor do I know of any left handed people that have been diagnosed with cancer.  That doesn't mean vaccines or right handedness causes car accidents or cancer.   It just means that the vast majority of children have received at least some vaccines and the vast majority of people are also right handed.  


Teacozy, who are you talking to with stuff like this? You seem so educated but then throw out something like this. Do you not know how to formulate a hypothesis or to control for variables (such as the percentage of left vs right handed people)? Or do you think you are talking to uninformed "anti-vaccine nutters" who listen to Jenny McCarthy.

If science approached everything the way you did: Americans have heart attacks. Most Americans are obese. That doesn't mean obesity contributes to heart attacks, it just means there will be more heart attacks of obese people since there are more obese people. Too bad there is no way to delve deeper and figure out if obese people experience heart attacks at a greater rate than those at a healthy weight. Oh wait...

Edited by littlec - 1/19/14 at 5:51am
post #39 of 185
Thread Starter 

Yes, thank you Micah mae!!  

 

See I would just like to see the research move beyond these repetitive questions!  For example, to return to my thoughts about Andrew Wakefield. What he was 'on to' was that for certain children with pre-existing conditions (not fully known but generally related to leaky gut and other intestinal issues at a young age), the MMR was a challenge that couldn't be handled and it disrupted their neurological development. My understanding from seeing him present in person at the National Vaccine Information Center conference, was that he very much wanted to proceed on to research whether there were certain children that shouldn't have or should delay MMR vaccine. (He was discredited before he could get to this phase of the work.)      And likewise there may be other challenges besides MMR that children with certain preexisting conditions cannot tolerate.  Do you see how this moves the question beyond "is it vaccines or isn't it?" It may be vaccines for certain kids and not for others. Clearly the unvaccinated children with autism cannot have vaccines in the etiology of their autism. We also know that preemies are more likely to have an ASD; also children who are multiples (twins, triplets, etc.)

 

I would just love to see the questions get broadened!! I'd like to see the pharmaceuticals consider vaccines as part of the equation. I'd love to see anti vaccine parents consider that vaccines aren't the WHOLE picture. I think if we could get there we'd have a much more responsible and mature dialogue in America that didn't demonize parents or researchers. 

post #40 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

See this is why a "vax vs non vax" study would be a waste of time.   The goal posts are constantly being moved.  I've seen it on these forums and in others as well. It used to be that NVers only wanted a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study.  As more and more people come forward as having unvaccinated children with autism, or personally knowing unvaccinated children with autism, the criteria is being changed.  The goal post then gets moved to "well, I bet the mother was vaccinated as a child".  Or "I bet she had dental work done, or got the flu vaccine during pregnancy, or a rhogam shot."   And now the goal post is being moved *again*!  Now the FATHER being vaccinated might explain it. 

For pete's sake.   For a study to satisfy a NVer that is convinced vaccines cause autism you would have to find not only a child that hasn't ever received a single vaccine, but a child whose mother and father have also never received any childhood vaccines.  The mother also couldn't have had any flu vaccines in her entire life, and especially not while pregnant.  The mother also couldn't have had a rhogam shot. Or dental work done.  And apparently military families should be be excluded too.   What if the grandparents were military and heavily vaccinated? Great grandparents?  When does the goal post stop moving? 

How many people that fit this criteria do you actually think exist in the US? 

I actually agree. I still think a vaxed vs non vaxed study would be sufficient, at least a starting point. I am sad to hear people in the non-vax community treating you that way, micha_mae. This isn't the first time I've heard of viotrol being spewed from them toward anyone who doesn't fit the no-vax mold. :/
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