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Whooping Cough Questions (We've just had it)

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

Hello,

 

I have a couple of specific questions I'm having a hard time finding the answers to, I'm hoping someone can offer their advice or sources to where I can find this info.

 

A bit of background first........  I have 2 girls, aged 3 and 5.  They are both completely un-vaxed (we are considering starting selective vaxing at some point).  

 

My 5 year old has just had pertussis.  She had a positive swab for it and we are just finishing up the second stage, where the paroxysms were quite severe.  She has just had her first 3 - 4 nights with just a couple and they are much more mild.

 

We got a positive swab for her after about 5 - 6 days of paroxysms and starter her on antibiotics right away (Azithromycin).  I do know the information about antibiotics, mainly that they are recommended to stop the spread of it and do not always help actual symptoms.  (No antibiotic flames please, this is the first time in 5.5 years she has taken them, we carefully made this decision).  With that being said I DO feel that the antibiotics quite signficantly decreased both the frequency and intensity of her paroxysms, by day 5 on them she was down to one per night and none in the day.  I'm feeling thankful we made the decision to do them. (And if anyone is wondering we also followed protocol for treating it with sodium ascorbate right from when she had the cold-like symptoms at the beginning - among a few other things from our naturopath - I'm sure all of these things contributed.)

 

We started my 3 year old (and my husband and myself) on the same antibiotics as we all had symptoms.  My 3 year old had significant symptoms of the first stage (very bad congestion, fever, headache, generally felt unwell - same as my 5 year old had).  Some dry coughing, but not much.  So we are pretty sure she was on her way to getting it, despite her nasal swab did not come back positive.  She has never developed the paroxysms and it's been a week since she finished her antibiotics.

 

My question is:  How can we find out if my 3-year old had it?  I've been told there is no blood test available for this where we live (we're in Canada).  And is there any way to determine without a blood test that she'll now have natural immunity to pertussis?  I'm HOPING that she'll have some immunity to it.  But I'm worried she did not have enough time to develop antibodies to it before we started antibiotics - does anyone know how much time is needed?  She may have had the first stage symptoms for a couple of weeks before, but it's hard to tell.  I'm worried, given there seems to be an outbreak at our elementary - and now my Mom is showing symptoms.  I REALLY do not want to go through paroxysms with her.

 

I know my 5 year old with now have natural immunity.  How long does that last?  I'm having difficulty finding un-biased info on this too.  

 

One last question - any suggestions/supplements to help my 5 year old recover completely and avoid any lasting effects from this?  We're still doing sodium ascorbate, just not in as high doses.....

 

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for sharing experience, knowledge or links to where I can find info!  I'm going to post this under "health" too as I wasn't so sure where to put it.

 

 

post #2 of 9

I can't help with your questions, but I'm so glad you and the kids made it through that ordeal! As for the antibiotic use, thank goodness you used it and it worked! That's how it's supposed to be used, in times of emergency.

From what you wrote, it seems like your 3 year old was exposed long enough, and maybe her immune system fought it off just fine. Did you nurse her for long? Maybe that had something to do with her ability to handle the illness so well. This is all my opinion, but it does seem like your daughter was exposed and her body handled it.

post #3 of 9

Hi! I have written this before but am going to repost it. Hope it might help!

 

Yes, I believe that your 3 year old, even if she had it and got over it so quickly will still have immunity. (for the same reasons some kids can be symptomless yet still fight it off and gain immunity- time is not what is important, its exposure)

I have read reports that show anywhere from 20 to 50 years of immunity if you get it naturally..... so not sure, but a long time!!! Also, with natural immunity, they will fight off parapertussis as well which is a huge benefit...

I will try to dig up some of my links for immunity and para...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/whooping-cough-beats-vaccine-20120320-1vibp.html

Australia also showed that vaxing moms and cocooning babies didn't help so they have abandoned it.

 

NEXT:

You have to understand what whooping cough is. If you have ever had the DTP or DTaP... your body already has "original antigenic sin:"  

Also, WC It is a MUCOSAL infection.

 

In adults, booster shots don't work.  Why?The original exposure to the disease through immunization "locks in" as they say the way the body will respond to it.Which is why vaccinated people can't clear the bacteria from the bronchi and therefore become carriers if infected, and THEN can act as a reservoir to infect others.  They do not respond to the key toxins which arise as A PROCESS of infection. 

 

Natural mucosal immunity specifically targets the infection process - how the bacteria sets up shop - and the specific toxins the bacteria switch on and then start once their little claws attach to the cilia in the bronchi at "ground zero". 

Another words,  the current whooping cough vaccines create antibodies at the "back-end", to antigens which come later in the infection.  Vaccines MIGHT reduce disease severity for the few months those antibodies exist, but the current whooping cough vaccines don't create the powerful "front end" protection which will immediately clear the bacteria on re-infection. Does that make sense?

The vaccine antibodies, if they are around, might ... lessen the effect of pertussis toxin when it Finally hits the blood supply. 

 

Again: The vaccine creates back end antibodies, BUT natural infection requires a specific bronchial immunity not made by the current vaccines, and not provided by the antibodies detected in antibody tests. 

 

This is WHY scientists have been searching and testing for an intra-nasal vaccine, starting in 2000. BPEZ1 has been tested and should it work, should be the only "vax" given for WC.  It is to finally confront "front end" defenses in the mucosal area where they need to be. This should also help against parapertussis as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430219

 

However: The intra-nasal vaccine will be of no use to adults, whose immunity - as a result of "original antigenic sin" was primed for "back end" immunity and whose immune system will no longer respond in any other way - so an intra-nasal vaccine won't give front end immunity to adults, any more than re-exposure to whooping cough would, or booster injections will. In fact, adults will continue to be the main source of carriage and spread in the community because of this.

 

Given that booster shots don't increase the bactericidal qualities in the blood why recommend them?

The shot will never stop transmission to anyone else.

The shot will not help you not get it.

The shot might lesson severity (which is a crap shot to say what percentage-some seem to have no symptoms while others get horrible cases).

 

 

S

DS-13      

DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

post #4 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssun5 View Post
 

 

NEXT:

You have to understand what whooping cough is. If you have ever had the DTP or DTaP... your body already has "original antigenic sin:"  

Also, WC It is a MUCOSAL infection.

 

In adults, booster shots don't work.  Why?The original exposure to the disease through immunization "locks in" as they say the way the body will respond to it.Which is why vaccinated people can't clear the bacteria from the bronchi and therefore become carriers if infected, and THEN can act as a reservoir to infect others.  They do not respond to the key toxins which arise as A PROCESS of infection. 

 

Natural mucosal immunity specifically targets the infection process - how the bacteria sets up shop - and the specific toxins the bacteria switch on and then start once their little claws attach to the cilia in the bronchi at "ground zero". 

Another words,  the current whooping cough vaccines create antibodies at the "back-end", to antigens which come later in the infection.  Vaccines MIGHT reduce disease severity for the few months those antibodies exist, but the current whooping cough vaccines don't create the powerful "front end" protection which will immediately clear the bacteria on re-infection. Does that make sense?

The vaccine antibodies, if they are around, might ... lessen the effect of pertussis toxin when it Finally hits the blood supply. 

 

Again: The vaccine creates back end antibodies, BUT natural infection requires a specific bronchial immunity not made by the current vaccines, and not provided by the antibodies detected in antibody tests. 

 

This is WHY scientists have been searching and testing for an intra-nasal vaccine, starting in 2000. BPEZ1 has been tested and should it work, should be the only "vax" given for WC.  It is to finally confront "front end" defenses in the mucosal area where they need to be. This should also help against parapertussis as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430219

 

However: The intra-nasal vaccine will be of no use to adults, whose immunity - as a result of "original antigenic sin" was primed for "back end" immunity and whose immune system will no longer respond in any other way - so an intra-nasal vaccine won't give front end immunity to adults, any more than re-exposure to whooping cough would, or booster injections will. In fact, adults will continue to be the main source of carriage and spread in the community because of this.

 

Given that booster shots don't increase the bactericidal qualities in the blood why recommend them?

The shot will never stop transmission to anyone else.

The shot will not help you not get it.

The shot might lesson severity (which is a crap shot to say what percentage-some seem to have no symptoms while others get horrible cases).

 

 

 

 

I am quoting this because it is very important information for people to understand. Thanks ssun for explaining the issue of OAS so well. :thumb

post #5 of 9

Ssun, that is such a great explanation--maybe you should start a thread with that as the lead post!

post #6 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post
 

I can't help with your questions, but I'm so glad you and the kids made it through that ordeal! As for the antibiotic use, thank goodness you used it and it worked! That's how it's supposed to be used, in times of emergency.

From what you wrote, it seems like your 3 year old was exposed long enough, and maybe her immune system fought it off just fine. Did you nurse her for long? Maybe that had something to do with her ability to handle the illness so well. This is all my opinion, but it does seem like your daughter was exposed and her body handled it.

 

Thank you!  I agree with that being how antibiotics are supposed to be used.
 
I did nurse my youngest until just after her 3rd birthday.  She's now 3.5 though, so not sure if that could still have helped?  I'm just relieved her symptoms never progressed and we started the antibiotics when we did.  :-)
post #7 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssun5 View Post
 

Hi! I have written this before but am going to repost it. Hope it might help!

 

Yes, I believe that your 3 year old, even if she had it and got over it so quickly will still have immunity. (for the same reasons some kids can be symptomless yet still fight it off and gain immunity- time is not what is important, its exposure)

I have read reports that show anywhere from 20 to 50 years of immunity if you get it naturally..... so not sure, but a long time!!! Also, with natural immunity, they will fight off parapertussis as well which is a huge benefit...

I will try to dig up some of my links for immunity and para...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/whooping-cough-beats-vaccine-20120320-1vibp.html

Australia also showed that vaxing moms and cocooning babies didn't help so they have abandoned it.

 

NEXT:

You have to understand what whooping cough is. If you have ever had the DTP or DTaP... your body already has "original antigenic sin:"  

Also, WC It is a MUCOSAL infection.

 

In adults, booster shots don't work.  Why?The original exposure to the disease through immunization "locks in" as they say the way the body will respond to it.Which is why vaccinated people can't clear the bacteria from the bronchi and therefore become carriers if infected, and THEN can act as a reservoir to infect others.  They do not respond to the key toxins which arise as A PROCESS of infection. 

 

Natural mucosal immunity specifically targets the infection process - how the bacteria sets up shop - and the specific toxins the bacteria switch on and then start once their little claws attach to the cilia in the bronchi at "ground zero". 

Another words,  the current whooping cough vaccines create antibodies at the "back-end", to antigens which come later in the infection.  Vaccines MIGHT reduce disease severity for the few months those antibodies exist, but the current whooping cough vaccines don't create the powerful "front end" protection which will immediately clear the bacteria on re-infection. Does that make sense?

The vaccine antibodies, if they are around, might ... lessen the effect of pertussis toxin when it Finally hits the blood supply. 

 

Again: The vaccine creates back end antibodies, BUT natural infection requires a specific bronchial immunity not made by the current vaccines, and not provided by the antibodies detected in antibody tests. 

 

This is WHY scientists have been searching and testing for an intra-nasal vaccine, starting in 2000. BPEZ1 has been tested and should it work, should be the only "vax" given for WC.  It is to finally confront "front end" defenses in the mucosal area where they need to be. This should also help against parapertussis as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430219

 

However: The intra-nasal vaccine will be of no use to adults, whose immunity - as a result of "original antigenic sin" was primed for "back end" immunity and whose immune system will no longer respond in any other way - so an intra-nasal vaccine won't give front end immunity to adults, any more than re-exposure to whooping cough would, or booster injections will. In fact, adults will continue to be the main source of carriage and spread in the community because of this.

 

Given that booster shots don't increase the bactericidal qualities in the blood why recommend them?

The shot will never stop transmission to anyone else.

The shot will not help you not get it.

The shot might lesson severity (which is a crap shot to say what percentage-some seem to have no symptoms while others get horrible cases).

 

 

S

DS-13      

DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

 

 

Wow!  This is fascinating information.  I appreciate you posting all of that information.  I need to re-read through it all again for that to sink in.  Can I ask, Sun Tzu, how you know this/what your qualifications are?  I hope that doesn't sound rude, I'm just curious where this info is from?  Thanks so much!

post #8 of 9

Thank you all but I am just re-wording, writing things that have been written before but summed up. :thumb

Well, I am just someone who has been interested in the Vaccine aspect my entire life after my brother had Vax reactions and I had to watch him suffer.

I have a degree that is not related to Medicine but have always loved research and critical thinking. Does reading a gazillion reports, books, articles, old newspapers for about 16 years count :)

 

Here are some links to some of my posts about this:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1389941/anybody-here-whose-children-have-had-severe-reactions-to-vaccines

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394323/i-dont-vax-but-am-considering-hib-vaccine

 

One more thing on exposure with your 3 year old:

Whooping cough is spread by carriers.  The real world reality, is that most of the carriers of whooping cough don't know they have it; most are asymptomatic (no symptoms) and most often parents don't know their children have it until about four to six weeks AFTER they first contacted it:

Looking at the time frames, incubation is listed as 5 - 15 days .  This is followed by an insignificant cold which lasts about a week, then goes away = 12 - 22 days.

After about a one week pause, = 19 - 31 days, the cough starts.

Most parents don't get concerned until about two weeks into the cough, when it's getting worse, and NOT going away.

So usually a parent doesn't usually get the child to the doctor until around 33 - 45 days after initial contact.

 

On natural immunity which explains the Para....*notice how the Vax only has 2-5 of anitgens found in WC and Natural infections work for them all.*

 

"Feunou 10"

 

"Cherry 2010"

 

To really understand WC, you need to understand ACT. (This is why if you get natural immunity, you can fight off Para.... Natural responds to ACT  from all Pertussis infections and Vaxes train our bodies to not respond to it which =reservoir or infection with symptom's.

 

I will have to find the other links to Para -its late and I'm tired!

 

I know Mirzam posted one on the primates recently....

 

S

DS-14 (our new son is officially ours 12/13 after 3 1/2 years)

DS-14     

DD-9

DD-3

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

post #9 of 9
Thread Starter 

Thank you for sharing this information!  It is much appreciated.  I'm happy to report we are nearly through this illness.  It's been a rough road, but we are on night 5 with no coughing spells..... phew!

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