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Another industry whistleblower--this time, it's for Wyeth's Prevnar vaccine - Page 2

post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I only meant that the risk with not vaccinating is if a vaccine preventable disease enters the community you are vulnerable to it, and the community is also more vulnerable to it.

 

If you live a secluded life in an area of low disease without many people visiting or leaving the area, the disease risk will be lower. 

 

I live a very active lifestyle with my daughter. I commute between uk cities and we travel internationally. My work causes me to come into contact with many people from many different walks of life and my daughter is always mixing with different groups of people too. In our circumstance I couldn't imagine choosing not to vaccinate. I didn't know about your circumstance so I asked. 

 

I didn't describe the UK so I don't understand your comment. 

 

Rexeldexel, is English your second language? I am having trouble understanding the points your are making sometimes and I don't think you are quite grasping what I am saying also. Let me explain something to to. I live in a county in the US that has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country (highest rate of PhDs in the country though). Only 60% of the children are fully vaccinated, the remaining 40% are either unvaccinated or undervaccinated, by parental choice, the vaccine most decline is MMR. The only vaccine available disease that is common is pertussis. There have been no deaths, and the vast majority of cases are in fully vaccinated school children. At my DD's high school there was an outbreak last November, 48 kids got whooping cough, 46 were vaccinated including a DTap booster given at around 12 (7th grade), 2 kids were classified as non-compliant which means either unvaccinated or not up to date. My DD did not get sick. The last case of measles was in 2008, in an unvaxed 7 month old baby (too young to have been vaccinated). There has been no diphtheria since heaven knows when, I couldn't find any records. Clearly the vaccination rate is too low for herd immunity, so why is no one dropping like flies here?
 
The town we live in is very international with a major University with plenty of foreign students. My children have never been coddled, they have traveled overseas unvaccinated, including Central America. The only vaccine available disease I know they have is chicken pox, I suspect they had a very mild case of whooping cough, but it was never confirmed.

Edited by Mirzam - 2/4/14 at 4:02pm
post #22 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I'm sure it takes more a "modicum of good sense" to avoid infections. Plenty of mothers are highly intelligent and sensible and their children still have had mild to severe health problems.

 

If you create a starting point for a conversation about infant immunity and breast milk (perhaps in another thread) that might help me to understand which aspects you are particularly interested in discussing :)

It is easy to avoid infections, that's what a fully functioning, natural immune system does.

 

Rexeldexel, are you copping out? Tell me what you know about the infant immune system and breast feeding because you seem to think that babies are completely vulnerable to infectious agents and that only vaccination can protect them. 

post #23 of 62
Thread Starter 

Rexeldexel, before things get too heated, let me ask you a question.


You have either stated or implied that those of us who are more worried about severe adverse effects from vaccines should be more worried about the deadly diseases they are supposed to protect us from.

 

You have provided links that do support your position--but then again, we have made many valid points and supplied links as well.

 

Is it possible for you to actually consider the possibility that we might be right?  

 

What if we are right?

post #24 of 62

Along with what Mirzam said... I live in the same state, different county/area but statewide I believe our vaxx rates tend to be on the lower end vs. other states. We homeschool so I am not up-to-date on the specifics of the pertussis outbreaks but they do occur every year. Two years ago I had a newborn during that time and decided to keep her at home, but being the postpartum period I think it is a good idea anyway. I have another baby due in August and will probably do the same for the first couple of months or so.

 

Last year our state had two cases of measles - an out of state visitor and another man that went to the same doctors office. Despite lower vaxx rates in our state it did not spread.

post #25 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

It is easy to avoid infections, that's what a fully functioning, natural immune system does.

 

Rexeldexel, are you copping out? Tell me what you know about the infant immune system and breast feeding because you seem to think that babies are completely vulnerable to infectious agents and that only vaccination can protect them. 

Wow Mirzam thank you for being so rude and personal!

 

Copping out? No. You are trying to put me in a corner and I am asking you to be reasonable by suggesting a starting point.

 

It's easy to avoid infections? This is a reason why I'm particularly interested in whether non-vax mums believe and understand evolution. Microorganisms are trying to infect while macroorganisms are trying to resist. Diseases would be extinct if immunity was as easy as you suggest. 

post #26 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

Rexeldexel, before things get too heated, let me ask you a question.


You have either stated or implied that those of us who are more worried about severe adverse effects from vaccines should be more worried about the deadly diseases they are supposed to protect us from.

 

You have provided links that do support your position--but then again, we have made many valid points and supplied links as well.

 

Is it possible for you to actually consider the possibility that we might be right?  

 

What if we are right?

 

 

If you're right I will notice as we go along.

post #27 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post
 

Along with what Mirzam said... I live in the same state, different county/area but statewide I believe our vaxx rates tend to be on the lower end vs. other states. We homeschool so I am not up-to-date on the specifics of the pertussis outbreaks but they do occur every year. Two years ago I had a newborn during that time and decided to keep her at home, but being the postpartum period I think it is a good idea anyway. I have another baby due in August and will probably do the same for the first couple of months or so.

 

Last year our state had two cases of measles - an out of state visitor and another man that went to the same doctors office. Despite lower vaxx rates in our state it did not spread.

Thank you fruitfulmomma. It's nice to know a little more about people and their circumstances :)

post #28 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 
 

Wow Mirzam thank you for being so rude and personal!

 

Copping out? No. You are trying to put me in a corner and I am asking you to be reasonable by suggesting a starting point.

 

It's easy to avoid infections? This is a reason why I'm particularly interested in whether non-vax mums believe and understand evolution. Microorganisms are trying to infect while macroorganisms are trying to resist. Diseases would be extinct if immunity was as easy as you suggest. 

 

Sorry you took it that way. I am asking YOU what YOU know. If you don't want to say, that's fine.

 

I am totally gobsmacked by your second paragraph. How on earth did life evolve and survive without vaccines?

post #29 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Sorry you took it that way. I am asking YOU what YOU know. If you don't want to say, that's fine.

 

I am totally gobsmacked by your second paragraph. How on earth did life evolve and survive without vaccines?

:D That is EXACTLY how life on earth evolved! Organisms compete for resources and as one gets better the other improves too (or dies out). In the case of a discussion on vaccines, one of the organisms is a human and the other is a virus or bacteria. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_arms_race

 

I'm not writing you an essay on child immunology or the properties of breastmilk. But if there is something particular you would like to inform or ask me about go ahead!

post #30 of 62

You do realize we are made up of more microbes than human cells and that we couldn't survived with out our microbiome?  It might be useful if you could explain your understanding of  'diseases' because it appears we are light years apart in our understanding of health and healing. So at this point, I can't see that I can waste any more of my time discussing this with you.

 

One last question, how is it my children have survived if all these horrible pathogens are waiting around every corner to strike them down. Them being unvaccinated and all?

post #31 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

 

One last question, how is it my children have survived if all these horrible pathogens are waiting around every corner to strike them down. Them being unvaccinated and all?

It makes me wonder if according to this line of thinking, IF you don't vaccinate you have no chance of survival? WOW, didn't know that, makes me wonder how we did make it without vaccine in the first place headscratch.gif……….and for those who can not be vaccinated for medical reason, they are doomed anyway-correct?

post #32 of 62

I think I understand what's going on here........Rexeldexel must have heard that many non-vaccinating parents in the USA are claiming religious waivers. Naturally, this means that they are all religious and ignorant of science, right?

 

Newsflash: A person can believe in God, and still understand science. Do you know there is a concept called "theistic evolution"? 

Quote:
 Theistic evolutiontheistic evolutionism or evolutionary creationism are the views that hold that religious teachings about God are compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution.

 

I'm not speaking for anybody else, and I'm not judging anybody's faith. I just want you to know that you are misinformed about the majority of non-vaccinating Americans. I'm curious as to where you found your information. 

post #33 of 62
Quote:
nm
post #34 of 62

Somebody needs to learn about the US constitution and laws. It predates Darwin.

post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

Don't you believe your children are at risk of disease? Or your community?


Do you have anything to say about the original post?

~~For instance, Wyeth failed to reveal that in 2003, FDA inspectors found so many quality-control failings at the Prevnar packaging plant in Pearl River, NY, that production was shutdown at the site. Among the many problems listed in FDA reports, inspectors described dirty work areas, sloppy operating procedures, contamination, improper environmental monitoring and insects in a hallway outside the room where vials were filled with the vaccine."

post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

You do realize we are made up of 
more microbes than human cells and that we couldn't survived with out our microbiome?  It might be useful if you could explain your understanding of  'diseases' because it appears we are light years apart in our understanding of health and healing. So at this point, I can't see that I can waste any more of my time discussing this with you.


One last question, how is it my children have survived if all these horrible pathogens are waiting around every corner to strike them down. Them being unvaccinated and all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

I think I understand what's going on here........Rexeldexel must have heard that many non-vaccinating parents in the USA are claiming religious waivers. Naturally, this means that they are all religious and ignorant of science, right?

Newsflash: A person can believe in God, and still understand science. Do you know there is a concept called "theistic evolution"? 

I'm not speaking for anybody else, and I'm not judging anybody's faith. I just want you to know that you are misinformed about the majority of non-vaccinating Americans. I'm curious as to where you found your information. 


I'm not talking about a religious belief. Evolution is basic science, as is the theory of gravity. I agree that many religious people *believe* in evolution and I absolutely disagree that religious people are ignorant of science. For example, my local CofE priest (and good friend) gave me Richard Dawkin's book The Greatest Show on Earth and my parents (a medic and a science academic) are both religious. This is certainly not an exhaustive list of all the religious and scientific people I know, and they are not all from the same religious backgrounds. Even the pope accepts evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution. Evolutionary theory and religious belief are not (necessarily) in conflict. I certainly do not have problem with people holding religious beliefs UNLESS the religious doctrine prevents the education of children in sound science. If the kids don't need the science, fine. But what if they grow up and want to make an informed decision about vaccination? If they have NOT been allowed to learn a basic principle of biology they are seriously disadvantaged when they try to look through the papers and articles and advice that is available. I'm sorry if this offends you.

I've never heard of religious waivers beckybird.

Apple juice: Evolution has been operating for long time before the american continent was even formed, let alone the constitution.

Mirzam: Are you thinking I'm afraid of microbes? Of course I'm aware that our bodies have a rich flora of bacteria and that this is necessary and desirable. Do you know WHY microbes "want" to live in our bodies?

Your children have survived for many reasons which will include genetics, diet, exposure to toxins, I won't make an exhaustive list. Firstly "horrible pathogens" are not "waiting around every corner to strike them down". This would imply some sort of purpose or intent. Actually, what our immune systems consider as "horrible" changes over time because our immunity adapts to changing pathogens, and vice versa. This IS evolution.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/31/states-laws-challenge-teaching-evolution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/12/new-anti-science-assault-us-schools
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2005/01/31/evolution-american-education
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-usa-poll-evolution-idUSBRE9BT0LC20131230
post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlec View Post


Do you have anything to say about the original post?
~~For instance, Wyeth failed to reveal that in 2003, FDA inspectors found so many quality-control failings at the Prevnar packaging plant in Pearl River, NY, that production was shutdown at the site. Among the many problems listed in FDA reports, inspectors described dirty work areas, sloppy operating procedures, contamination, improper environmental monitoring and insects in a hallway outside the room where vials were filled with the vaccine."

Hi littlec

no, I don't at the moment but will be back on the thread if I have anything on topic to write smile.gif
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 
 
Mirzam: Are you thinking I'm afraid of microbes? Of course I'm aware that our bodies have a rich flora of bacteria and that this is necessary and desirable. Do you know WHY microbes "want" to live in our bodies?

Your children have survived for many reasons which will include genetics, diet, exposure to toxins, I won't make an exhaustive list. Firstly "horrible pathogens" are not "waiting around every corner to strike them down". This would imply some sort of purpose or intent. Actually, what our immune systems consider as "horrible" changes over time because our immunity adapts to changing pathogens, and vice versa. This IS evolution.

 

 

Yes, I do know WHY, but I would be curious to hear what YOU think why microbes want to 'live' (viruses are not alive) in our body. If my children can live without vaccines, why not others, if they do as we do as a family?

 

An slightly off topic quesiton for you pertaining to evolution. Can you tell me what causes autism and why it has become an epidemic within a generation? How does a species 'evolve' within 30 years? 

post #39 of 62
Quote:
 Somebody needs to learn about the US constitution and laws. It predates Darwin.

 

Quote:

 Apple juice: Evolution has been operating for long time before the american continent was even formed, let alone the constitution.

You ignored my point, conveniently.

 

I thought you came here for clarification of your confusion regarding the non-vaccination side of the issue. You are preaching to us instead.

Please learn to spell; you said you admired our spelling skills in your earliest posts. That is NOT how I spell my user name. It is right there. Copy it the way it is; it is a name and I spell it the way I want. And please capitalize the A in America. It is not a continent, it is a nation, you know, the USA, on the continent of North America shared with Canada and Mexico.

 

I was referring, and I think you know it, to laws and constitution as it pertains to education in these United States. You keep saying that Evolution is not taught here, but Evolution is taught by judicial fiat and codified in each state curriculum framework. For someone who claims to be so educated and so well traveled, you seem to know very little about the American system of government outside of "what you have heard" from others, yet you feel free to repeatedly chastize the American educational system for not teaching Evolution; please check the credentials and motives of people who spread unfounded rumors. The universities of the USA are full of foreign students paying full tuition because our educational system excels; these foreign students DO NOT come thousands of miles to pay full tuition to learn Creationism or Intelligent Design.

Excellent question: what of evolution and the exponential rise of autism? Are we witnessing a new transmutation of the species competing for survival in our generation?


Edited by applejuice - 2/5/14 at 7:42am
post #40 of 62
Quote:
 Hi littlec

no, I don't at the moment but will be back on the thread if I have anything on topic to write smile.gif

Then before you took this thread off topic, YOU should have started another thread.

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