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Evolution, Adaptation, and Vaccines - Page 2

post #21 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-klinghoffer/the-dark-side-of-darwinis_b_630627.html

 

So, we have evolved throughout the millennia with defective immune systems, and now through the use of vaccines we are able to improve our immune systems to evolve into super humans. Sort of like transhumanism?

 

Do you think it might be possible that some of these self-limiting childhood diseases have any benefit for the organism? For example measles and less asthma, or mumps and less cancer of the ovaries? 

This made me laugh out loud :) No, absolutely not at all. Humans are in competition with their parasites and vice versa. This competition results in selection pressure that changes both organisms. Vaccines will never make us super humans LOL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition

 

Are you suggesting that children and diseases have evolved a mutualism?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(biology)

post #22 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I think you make some great points. With pertussis though studies have shown that without herd immunity individuals are still open to infection. 

 

To live this way we would have to accept living in "harmony" with the viruses which does inevitably mean damage and deaths. I'm not sure that childhood diseases are an essential part of the world's ecology and as we have successfully created the extinctions of many other species I'm not sure we should just give up on mass vaccination as a solution. 


I think it's a bit misguided to assume that we can get rid of childhood illness through mass vaccination.  We've drastically lowered the rates of some of the illnesses, but kids still get sick.  If anything, kids these days are sicklier.

 

Also, given what we know about pertussis and the vaccine, I don't think the word "herd immunity" applies, and I doubt we've got an accurate idea of what the infection rate is (as opposed to the rate of diagnosis). 

post #23 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I think you make some great points. With pertussis though studies have shown that without herd immunity individuals are still open to infection. 

 

To live this way we would have to accept living in "harmony" with the viruses which does inevitably mean damage and deaths. I'm not sure that childhood diseases are an essential part of the world's ecology and as we have successfully created the extinctions of many other species I'm not sure we should just give up on mass vaccination as a solution. 

 

There is no such thing as herd immunity with pertussis vaccine, it DOES NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION.

 

I have a very hard time of accepting your belief that living in harmony with microbes inevitably means damage and death. Do you believe we are all victims and have no control over our reality? Do you know that every time you step into the ocean you are walking into a soup of viruses? Perhaps you should be wearing a hazmat suit when you next go for a swim?

 

You are essentially saying that "Science" should play God. Is this not then a religion? Vaccines as the holy magic water and the initiation or baptism into the Church of Science? Here in the US babies get to become members of the Church on the first day of birth.

post #24 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

At risk of sounding like a complete idiot (which I'm sure I will, but I'm actually okay with that because I'm really curious as to the answer to my question :) ), why is it less of a problem to have mutating viruses than the issue we are currently experiencing with mutating bacteria as a result of over-use of antibiotics? I realize that the two act differently in the body, but it seems to be well acknowledged in the medical community that the over-use of antibiotics has contributed to the evolution of these "super-bugs" that we're seeing that are causing us a lot of grief. What's to stop the viruses from becoming "super-viruses" that become far more difficult, if not impossible, for us to treat, leading to more deaths?

 

 

This makes sense to me, but I'm not sure why it's a good thing, so I'm trying to understand. Thanks!

I love your question rednightingale and I don't know all the answers. I'm wondering the same things to myself. The thing is with antibiotics, it is very important to use the full prescription rather than leaving a few lingering problem-bacteria in your system. The left over bacteria can contain mutations that made them better able to survive the antibiotic than the ones that already died, so when they multiply they may have increased antibiotic resistance. This also relates to the concept of herd immunity. If people in the community aren't vaccinated they are acting as a reservoir for mutations to multiply and infect the rest of the population. 

post #25 of 84

Thanks for trying to answer Rexeldexel. Do you have anything to support the idea that the unvaccinated are acting as reservoirs for mutations, or is it speculation because of another particular scientific theory? I ask because my generation (I'm not that old, for the record) hasn't had all the vaccinations that children are given now, but people don't seem to be nearly as concerned about the effect of the adult unvaccinated on herd immunity as they are about children. We also didn't see the rapid mutation of viruses that we weren't vaccinated against, as far as I've heard/know. If my under-vaccinated  (I suppose you could say he was unvaccinated for the several months of his remission leading up to his death, since he underwent three autologous stem cell transplants, and from what I understand, that wipes out any immunity previously acquired from vaccines, though I could have misunderstood) child would be considered a reservoir for disease, why wouldn't I? I'm not under vaccinated for my generation, but I certainly don't have all the vaccines that my daughter does, for example. (FTR, I don't do flu shots, so I guess I could be considered under vaccinated, but I don't find the evidence for getting a flu shot very compelling, given my own life situation.)

post #26 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

There is no such thing as herd immunity with pertussis vaccine, it DOES NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION.

 

I have a very hard time of accepting your belief that living in harmony with microbes inevitably means damage and death. Do you believe we are all victims and have no control over our reality? Do you know that every time you step into the ocean you are walking into a soup of viruses? Perhaps you should be wearing a hazmat suit when you next go for a swim?

 

You are essentially saying that "Science" should play God. Is this not then a religion? Vaccines as the holy magic water and the initiation or baptism into the Church of Science? Here in the US babies get to become members of the Church on the first day of birth.

I don't know how you could misunderstand me so thoroughly Mirzam. I have no interest in anybody's religious beliefs in this forum. You are confusing science for religion although many many religious people manage to understand both at the same time. Evolutionary theory is a theory as strong as gravitational theory. If I were talking about gravity would you also accuse science of playing god? Evolution is not a faith belief. 

 

Everything living has a life strategy. Some form parasitic relationships, others form mutualisms and that briefly explains why some bacteria are "good" and some bacteria are "bad" for us. Everything is competing for resources eg energy. Plants gain energy from sunlight and as a result you can observe the structure of a woodland canopy from the highest tree tops, to the under storey to the ground and even below the ground as all the species live together in competition for the energy as it travels through the trophic systems. Childhood disease causing pathogens compete with a child's body for resources. Picture a flea living on an animal. That flea is competing with the animal for the energy value in its blood. The child's immune system responds to this invasion and chemical warfare ensues. That is the nature of parasitic microbes so if we are to live in harmony with them this is what we can all expect them to do.  

post #27 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Thanks for trying to answer Rexeldexel. Do you have anything to support the idea that the unvaccinated are acting as reservoirs for mutations, or is it speculation because of another particular scientific theory? I ask because my generation (I'm not that old, for the record) hasn't had all the vaccinations that children are given now, but people don't seem to be nearly as concerned about the effect of the adult unvaccinated on herd immunity as they are about children. We also didn't see the rapid mutation of viruses that we weren't vaccinated against, as far as I've heard/know. If my under-vaccinated  (I suppose you could say he was unvaccinated for the several months of his remission leading up to his death, since he underwent three autologous stem cell transplants, and from what I understand, that wipes out any immunity previously acquired from vaccines, though I could have misunderstood) child would be considered a reservoir for disease, why wouldn't I? I'm not under vaccinated for my generation, but I certainly don't have all the vaccines that my daughter does, for example. (FTR, I don't do flu shots, so I guess I could be considered under vaccinated, but I don't find the evidence for getting a flu shot very compelling, given my own life situation.)

http://media.mycme.com/documents/34/omer_2009_8396.pdf

 

Try searching for "herd effect" or "disease risk unvaccinated population" with google scholar. Sorry I have to collect my daughter from school now otherwise I'd take more time in replying....

The ability of a particular bacteria or virus to mutate rapidly depends on its life history. I don't know if it's a useful example, but if you can imagine trying to breed elephants for a particular physical trait vs mice, it would take a lot longer with the elephants. It will depend on characteristics of the disease like where it lives in the body and what method of transmission it uses etc. How contagious is it and how long does it lie dormant?

post #28 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I don't know how you could misunderstand me so thoroughly Mirzam. I have no interest in anybody's religious beliefs in this forum. You are confusing science for religion although many many religious people manage to understand both at the same time. Evolutionary theory is a theory as strong as gravitational theory. If I were talking about gravity would you also accuse science of playing god? Evolution is not a faith belief. 

 

Everything living has a life strategy. Some form parasitic relationships, others form mutualisms and that briefly explains why some bacteria are "good" and some bacteria are "bad" for us. Everything is competing for resources eg energy. Plants gain energy from sunlight and as a result you can observe the structure of a woodland canopy from the highest tree tops, to the under storey to the ground and even below the ground as all the species live together in competition for the energy as it travels through the trophic systems. Childhood disease causing pathogens compete with a child's body for resources. Picture a flea living on an animal. That flea is competing with the animal for the energy value in its blood. The child's immune system responds to this invasion and chemical warfare ensues. That is the nature of parasitic microbes so if we are to live in harmony with them this is what we can all expect them to do.  

 

No, I am not confusing 'science' with religion, it is your interpretation of 'science' that is religious. Again, I don't know if it is a language thing, but you are coming off as extremely condescending. You are just relaying your beliefs. I am probably not going to waste much more of my energy on addressing your posts - am half way through a long post about how vaccines produce mutant, weaponized viral strains, but I may not bother to finish it. It is frustrating for me to discuss these things with someone who's point of perception is so limited. I don't mean to be rude, but we will get absolutely nowhere because we are on completely different wavelengths. I thought you came on here to learn, but I guess you really came on to tell us non-vaxers a thing or two; to show us the error of our ways. By the way, you have shown me nothing I haven't heard already a zillion times. I don't care if you believe vaccines are the greatest medical invention ever created, and that through vaccines we can create a world of harmony without disease (see how religious that sounds?). I am not here to convert people to anti-vaccinationism, I am here for those who are are wanting to learn as much as they can about vaccines so that they can make an informed choice as to whether they want to utilize them or not. I have spent around 18 years exploring the issue of vaccines, and health and healing. I am also a student of the nature of reality and the more I learn, the more I know everything and I mean everything is bollocks. 

post #29 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelsmama View Post
 


I think it's a bit misguided to assume that we can get rid of childhood illness through mass vaccination.  We've drastically lowered the rates of some of the illnesses, but kids still get sick.  If anything, kids these days are sicklier.

 

Also, given what we know about pertussis and the vaccine, I don't think the word "herd immunity" applies, and I doubt we've got an accurate idea of what the infection rate is (as opposed to the rate of diagnosis). 

I agree rachelsmama that kids will always get sick, but I think we should aim to reduce the damage of serious childhood diseases as much as possible, ideally to extinction.  I guess whether or not an infectious disease can be eradicated by vaccination depends on its life cycle and transmission dynamics. Smallpox and rinderpest are gone, polio may be gone next and others have been dramatically reduced too. 

 

Herd immunity clearly did apply to pertussis control until recently and now more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn. 

post #30 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

No, I am not confusing 'science' with religion, it is your interpretation of 'science' that is religious. Again, I don't know if it is a language thing, but you are coming off as extremely condescending. You are just relaying your beliefs. I am probably not going to waste much more of my energy on addressing your posts - am half way through a long post about how vaccines produce mutant, weaponized viral strains, but I may not bother to finish it. It is frustrating for me to discuss these things with someone who's point of perception is so limited. I don't mean to be rude, but we will get absolutely nowhere because we are on completely different wavelengths. I thought you came on here to learn, but I guess you really came on to tell us non-vaxers a thing or two; to show us the error of our ways. By the way, you have shown me nothing I haven't heard already a zillion times. I don't care if you believe vaccines are the greatest medical invention ever created, and that through vaccines we can create a world of harmony without disease (see how religious that sounds?). I am not here to convert people to anti-vaccinationism, I am here for those who are are wanting to learn as much as they can about vaccines so that they can make an informed choice as to whether they want to utilize them or not. I have spent around 18 years exploring the issue of vaccines, and health and healing. I am also a student of the nature of reality and the more I learn, the more I know everything and I mean everything is bollocks. 

You have been really rude to me Mirzam. I think it is obvious that your education in health, healing and vaccines has not been based on the same science as mine because you have criticised or misunderstood the widely accepted scientific concepts I've mentioned. And as you say that everything is bollocks anyway I have no idea why you decided to be offended by mine (or societies version of modern science) in particular. Perhaps with your superior knowledge you might have condescended to teach me a new concept despite how "limited" my point of perception may be.

 

I never said that vaccines are the greatest medical vaccination ever invented. I never shared my religious views with you. I never mentioned a world of harmony without disease. 

post #31 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post


Herd immunity clearly did apply to pertussis control until recently and now more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn. 

You are (again) mistaken.

The medical community has already admitted that the pertussis vaccine did not prevent transmission. Without preventing transmission, there is no such thing as herd immunity, no matter how many people were fully vaccinated for pertussis according to the CDC schedule.

Again, you are showing that you were not being honest when you said you were here to learn. You clearly have no intention of considering any possibilities except for those put forth by the vaccine manufacturers. You are even refusing to accept findings of respected mainstream medical experts when they conflict with the vaccine manufacturers' official position.
post #32 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I love your question rednightingale and I don't know all the answers. I'm wondering the same things to myself. The thing is with antibiotics, it is very important to use the full prescription rather than leaving a few lingering problem-bacteria in your system. The left over bacteria can contain mutations that made them better able to survive the antibiotic than the ones that already died, so when they multiply they may have increased antibiotic resistance. This also relates to the concept of herd immunity. If people in the community aren't vaccinated they are acting as a reservoir for mutations to multiply and infect the rest of the population. 


You've forgotten about the role that over-use of antibiotics has played in the development of resistant strains.  Also, one way to select for vaccine-resistance mutations in a virus is mass-vaccination with a low-efficacy vaccine. 

post #33 of 84

Mirzam - I don't want to eat up your day, but I would be really interested in reading what you have about mutating virus strains if you want to share it. I think that I clearly have a lot to learn on this topic, and I am happy to hear all the perspectives about it. 

 

Thanks for posting that link Rexeldexel; I have a m/w appt this morning, but I will take the time to read it a little bit later on. 

post #34 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I agree rachelsmama that kids will always get sick, but I think we should aim to reduce the damage of serious childhood diseases as much as possible, ideally to extinction.  I guess whether or not an infectious disease can be eradicated by vaccination depends on its life cycle and transmission dynamics. Smallpox and rinderpest are gone, polio may be gone next and others have been dramatically reduced too. 

 

Herd immunity clearly did apply to pertussis control until recently and now more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn. 


Reducing the chances of serious illnesses is one thing, but the definition of serious has been shifting steadily as the number of vaccines increases.  It's difficult to predict the long-term effects of getting rid of a disease: sometimes it gets replaced by something else, sometimes weird things happen like the increase in shingles; so while I'm glad smallpox is gone, I think the current attitude of "let's eradicate everything we can" is reckless, and the leaves us open to several scenarios that are far more serious than the possible return of the mumps.

post #35 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 
 

You have been really rude to me Mirzam. I think it is obvious that your education in health, healing and vaccines has not been based on the same science as mine because you have criticised or misunderstood the widely accepted scientific concepts I've mentioned. And as you say that everything is bollocks anyway I have no idea why you decided to be offended by mine (or societies version of modern science) in particular. Perhaps with your superior knowledge you might have condescended to teach me a new concept despite how "limited" my point of perception may be.

 

I never said that vaccines are the greatest medical vaccination ever invented. I never shared my religious views with you. I never mentioned a world of harmony without disease. 

 

It became apparent very quickly you had no intention of learning anything from anyone here. You started with the obvious bias that pro-vaxer's were creationists, which is a huge misconception, the majority of parents who opt out of vaccines are highly educated, they have likely put in hours of time researching the matter and have decided, for whatever reason, they are choosing to forgo some or all vaccines for their children and themselves. 

post #36 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Mirzam - I don't want to eat up your day, but I would be really interested in reading what you have about mutating virus strains if you want to share it. I think that I clearly have a lot to learn on this topic, and I am happy to hear all the perspectives about it. 

 

 

 

I didn't save my post and I don't feel like writing it out again, but I am happy pm you a link to something someone else wrote about it, it that would help. With regard to your particular situation, I have you done any research on germline disruptions? 


Edited by Mirzam - 2/5/14 at 10:45am
post #37 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


You are (again) mistaken.

The medical community has already admitted that the pertussis vaccine did not prevent transmission. Without preventing transmission, there is no such thing as herd immunity, no matter how many people were fully vaccinated for pertussis according to the CDC schedule.

Again, you are showing that you were not being honest when you said you were here to learn. You clearly have no intention of considering any possibilities except for those put forth by the vaccine manufacturers. You are even refusing to accept findings of respected mainstream medical experts when they conflict with the vaccine manufacturers' official position.

I'm not happy with the way you are targeting me personally Taximom. It's mean and unneccessary. As it happens I have read papers that have told me the opposite of what you are writing. As an example: 

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/18/7279.full

 

"...over the last 60 y, there has been a major reduction in pertussis in many countries, associated with mass vaccination of infants and toddlers (3). However, in the last decade or so, infection has resurged in many highly vaccinated populations..."

 

So over those 60 years herd immunity effect was clearly demonstrated. As you rightly point out, the disease dynamics of pertussis have changed in recent years but this is not yet fully understood. 

post #38 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 
 

 

So over those 60 years herd immunity effect was clearly demonstrated. As you rightly point out, the disease dynamics of pertussis have changed in recent years but this is not yet fully understood. 

Perhaps if you had read the links applejuice posted about original antigenic sin you would have a smidgen of a clue.

post #39 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I'm not happy with the way you are targeting me personally Taximom. It's mean and unneccessary. As it happens I have read papers that have told me the opposite of what you are writing. As an example: 

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/18/7279.full

 

"...over the last 60 y, there has been a major reduction in pertussis in many countries, associated with mass vaccination of infants and toddlers (3). However, in the last decade or so, infection has resurged in many highly vaccinated populations..."

 

So over those 60 years herd immunity effect was clearly demonstrated. As you rightly point out, the disease dynamics of pertussis have changed in recent years but this is not yet fully understood. 

60 years of selecting for the most vaccine-resistant strains can have an impact (yes, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but since the thread is based on evolution I had to say it).   The vaccine switch could also be playing a role, as could changes in diagnostic criteria.

post #40 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post

I'm not happy with the way you are targeting me personally Taximom. It's mean and unneccessary. As it happens I have read papers that have told me the opposite of what you are writing.

I am not here to make you happy. This is a debate forum.

You chose to say, more than once, that you are here to learn, that you want to learn how and why we've come to our conclusions. But you aren't really entering into a discussion. You aren't listening. You ignore points, quotes, studies, with no acknowledgment of their merit, and merely post a source with the opposing view.

That is not discussion, and it certainly isn't open-minded. It demonstrates an unwillingness to learn, or to even consider another point of view.

Since you made the initial claims that you were confused, you are here to learn, etc., I think it's appropriate to call you out on your inconsistency and lack of transparency.
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