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Evolution, Adaptation, and Vaccines - Page 3

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post

I'm not convinced of the evidence for these severe reactions and I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm". Often stories have not been linked irrefutably to the vaccine. /[/URL]

So you're campaigning against those who question and criticize vaccine safety/efficacy based on your own personal beliefs? Well, that certainly explains a lot.

Often stories have not been linked irrefutably to the vaccine, true. But often, they have been. You are callously dismissing those cases.

Often, vaccines have not been linked irrefutably to protection from disease. The flu shot is an obvious example.

Gee, when in history have we seen instances of denial of harm to a group of people, based on the excuse that it was for "the greater good?"
Edited by Taximom5 - 2/5/14 at 7:06pm
post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm". 

 

That is frightening and creepy.

post #43 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

That is frightening and creepy.

Absolutely. That translates into deliberately harming some, for one's own definition of "the greater good."
Edited by Taximom5 - 2/5/14 at 7:06pm
post #44 of 84
Lols. Campaigning? Callous? Supporting community health makes vaccinators creepy, frightening and deliberate child harmers?

A few of the posters here have wonderful, if a little dark, imaginations.

smile.gif
post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post

Supporting community health makes vaccinators creepy, frightening and deliberate child harmers?

A few of the posters here have wonderful, if a little dark, imaginations.

smile.gif

 

I was simply taking you at your word. You wrote, "I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm"

 

Did you not mean what you wrote?

post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

I didn't save my post and I don't feel like writing it out again, but I am happy pm you a link to something someone else wrote about it, it that would help. With regard to your particular situation, I have you done any research on germline disruptions? 

 

 

I would appreciate that very much, thanks! I haven't done much research at all in that area, although it sounds like an area that I should definitely be looking into.

post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 
 

I would appreciate that very much, thanks! I haven't done much research at all in that area, although it sounds like an area that I should definitely be looking into.

PM'ing you.

post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

PM'ing you.

Thank you! I got it - I don't have the ability to reply to PMs from anyone at the moment though; I assume because I'm very new.

post #49 of 84

Something else for you rednightingale, although this specifically addresses autism and Chiari malformations and Agent Orange, but this paragraph jumped out at me:


 

Quote:

It caught my eye for many reasons –like the article points out, Coleen is one of the useless $%*&@ dicking around our children on the autism issue today. (My words of course ;) ) But… I’ve been taking informal polls on this issue for a while now.  Those of us with autistic kids seem to have a disproportionate number of fathers who served in Vietnam or were in the area at the time. Toxin exposure can alter DNA

 

 

http://autismwars.wordpress.com/tag/chiari-malformation/

post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post

Lols. Campaigning? Callous? Supporting community health makes vaccinators creepy, frightening and deliberate child harmers?

 

Absolutely not.

 

However, the guideline of "first, do no harm" is a good guideline.

 

I would not put supporting community health above "first, do not harm."  

 

--------------

 

MDC is a parenting forum.  Public health initiatives and individual health choices are not always they same.

post #51 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post


I am not here to make you happy. This is a debate forum.

You chose to say, more than once, that you are here to learn, that you want to learn how and why we've come to our conclusions. But you aren't really entering into a discussion. You aren't listening. You ignore points, quotes, studies, with no acknowledgment of their merit, and merely post a source with the opposing view.

That is not discussion, and it certainly isn't open-minded. It demonstrates an unwillingness to learn, or to even consider another point of view.

Since you made the initial claims that you were confused, you are here to learn, etc., I think it's appropriate to call you out on your inconsistency and lack of transparency.

 

I'm aware that there are some completely non verbal people on the spectrum who are able to communicate through typing etc and some that even go to college and do well.

 

But that is certainly not the majority.

 

The stats from the CDC link were based on IQ numbers.  I am not buying that the vast majority of people on the spectrum who have no communication at all and no real concept of how to use a toilet are of normal IQ intelligence. 

post #52 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

I'm aware that there are some completely non verbal people on the spectrum who are able to communicate through typing etc and some that even go to college and do well.

 

But that is certainly not the majority.

 

The stats from the CDC link were based on IQ numbers.  I am not buying that the vast majority of people on the spectrum who have no communication at all and no real concept of how to use a toilet are of normal IQ intelligence. 

 

Citation, please. Please specify how you measure IQ, and particularly verbal intelligence, in someone with no speech, who lacks social skills, and who may have severe medical problems, such as intestinal pain, vestibular disorders, etc.?

 

Also, do please tell us what you know about autism, and how you know it.

See, I think you know very little about autism.  Even after being told that many autistic children have severe intestinal disorders which make toilet-training extremely difficult, you maintain that the majority of autistic people who have difficulty with toilet training "have no real concept of how to use a toilet."

How did you come to that conclusion?  I'll wager it wasn't by personal experience.

How many profoundly autistic people, with no speech and with intestinal issues, do you personally know? What do you know about their intelligence, and how?  

post #53 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
 

 

I was simply taking you at your word. You wrote, "I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm"

 

Did you not mean what you wrote?

I was using Taximom5's definition from a previous post. In it she said that she believed in "first do no harm" by which she meant that as she believes vaccinations are intrinsically dangerous she will not vaccinate despite the disease risk. 

 

I have not seen evidence to show that vaccines are dangerous (I know that the standard answer on these threads is "but there is no real data, we can't trust the results, people can make the statistics look the way they want, the professionals only do what they're told to and the big companies don't care if your child dies so long as they make money") but I have seen plenty of evidence showing that vaccination-preventable diseases are dangerous. 

 

Perhaps I'm just more community spirited than you? I feel a responsibility towards children in the community and not just my own daughter. In making a decision I think of her first and then weight the decision on the wider repercussions too. If I believed her immune system to be second to none and was completely confident that if she caught a childhood disease she would recover well from it, why would I make her cry getting the jab? Because of herd immunity. Science shows that by not vaccinating my own daughter I increase the risk for the rest of the population. 

 

If we take "first do no harm" literally it means that we wouldn't get much done at all. For example, my daughter does not always want to practice playing her ukulele and so when I insist she gets upset. She actually really loves playing when she gets started so the push is worthwhile. Her guinea pig died yesterday and she has cried her eyes out tonight and struggled to sleep. Should I have prevented her from having the pet in the first place? Do you know how many people die each year from using the stairs? I think they are probably more dangerous than vaccinations.

post #54 of 84
Quote:
If we take "first do no harm" literally it means that we wouldn't get much done at all. For example, my daughter does not always want to practice playing her ukulele and so when I insist she gets upset. She actually really loves playing when she gets started so the push is worthwhile. Her guinea pig died yesterday and she has cried her eyes out tonight and struggled to sleep. Should I have prevented her from having the pet in the first place? Do you know how many people die each year from using the stairs? I think they are probably more dangerous than vaccinations.

 

Sigh, for the nth time, a vaccination is an injected pharmaceutical drug.  It is not the same as being upset about having to practice a musical instrument, feeling sad at the death of a pet, or walking up or down the stairs - which no, are not more dangerous than vaccinations. 

post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

 

Perhaps I'm just more community spirited than you? I feel a responsibility towards children in the community and not just my own daughter. In making a decision I think of her first and then weight the decision on the wider repercussions too. If I believed her immune system to be second to none and was completely confident that if she caught a childhood disease she would recover well from it, why would I make her cry getting the jab? Because of herd immunity. Science shows that by not vaccinating my own daughter I increase the risk for the rest of the population. 

 

 

Right - you think of your daughter first, as you should.  If you felt vaccine were not safe, or the safety of vaccines was unknowable, you would not give the vaccine to her.  

post #56 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Sigh, for the nth time, a vaccination is an injected pharmaceutical drug.  It is not the same as being upset about having to practice a musical instrument, feeling sad at the death of a pet, or walking up or down the stairs - which no, are not more dangerous than vaccinations. 

I've not seen the evidence that the vaccinations are dangerous so I don't share your view of the danger. 

 

In 2010 655 people died by falling on or from stairs or step in the UK.  http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010#data

In 2009 1 person died struck by lightening in the UK. 

 

In comparison around 355,000 deaths occur annually in unvaccinated children in developing countries just from pertussis. 

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/174/Supplement_3/S259.full.pdf  I know there are problems with this vaccine, but aren't we all grateful that we don't have this level of disease in the UK and USA? Vaccination has significantly improved lives for us all. 


Edited by Rexeldexel - 2/5/14 at 4:45pm
post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

Right - you think of your daughter first, as you should.  If you felt vaccine were not safe, or the safety of vaccines was unknowable, you would not give the vaccine to her.  

but I also think that the risk of vaccine is as close to knowable as possible, which I think is less risky than driving the car or using the stairs which I do with my daughter everyday.

 

I've recently read some interesting studies on the life history of humans. What was especially bewildering is the way in which children were part of communities pre-agriculture. In modern life we do differentiate clearly between My Child and Your Child even if we live in the same community but this is apparently only a result of agriculture. 

post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I've not seen the evidence that the vaccinations are dangerous so I don't share your view of the danger. 

 

 

And I don't share you views on the danger of self-limiting childhood diseases which were already becoming way less virulent before vaccines were ever introduced. I actually find it quite shocking that the only danger you perceive from vaccines is they hurt and make kids cry. 

post #59 of 84
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm". 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I was using Taximom5's definition from a previous post. In it she said that she believed in "first do no harm" by which she meant that as she believes vaccinations are intrinsically dangerous she will not vaccinate despite the disease risk. 

 

 



Are you an attorney?  You seem to have an attorney's knack for twisting words. You're certainly either twisting mine, or else putting words and, indeed entire sentences in my mouth that I never said.


I have never said that "vaccines are intrinsically dangerous," nor have I said that that "because vaccines are intrinsically dangerous  I will not vaccinate despite the disease risk."
 

So it seems like you're playing a little game here, trying to blame me for a definition YOU came up with.

 

Sorry, that's not going to fly here.   You made a statement about your own beliefs; you were neither trapped nor goaded into doing so.  Please take responsibility for your own words, and either explain them or apologize for them, without trying to blame others.


 

post #60 of 84
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