what are the stages of grieving?

[KPduty]

Does anyone know all the stages of grieving and loss? I've been wondering for some time now what they are and if they can be applied to the loss of a birth experience (by cesarean or traumatic birth). Women most definitely grieve when they do not have the birth they want and dream of and go through a process of grieving. I wonder if it's the same process as in grieving for a lost loved one.

If you know what they are could you please help me out?

Thanks.

[lisamarie]

KP Duty~

You brought up a good question. I have seen and read about the different stages of grief. They are and in no particular order:

1. Shock/Numbness
2. Anger
3. Bargining, searching
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Myself, I think that mothers who have experienced a traumatic birth, do go through these stages of grief. Everyone grieves differently and the length of time varies from person to person.

I hope this answers your question.

Warmly~

Lisa

[bunny's mama]

lisamarie,

the stages you listed are part of elisabeth kubler-ross' theory on death & dying.

i just wanted to credit her, and also to say that she didn't believe that we went thru the stages in a linear fashion (i.e. first shock, then anger, etc.). she thought that we move thru them at different paces, some stages taking more time for some people, etc. also, she said that once we're "through" a certain stage, we can also go back and experience the same stage over again. it's prolly better represented as a circle, than as a list.

sorry to be so clinical...that's the therapist in me.

[Sarah_Elizabeth]

I haven't been here for many months, not since the forums changed and before the birth of my 4th child last June. Boy does this hit home. Can you say ANGER?! Sometimes, I don't know where I'm at. I was depressed for some time after his birth, but I can't hadle that. Treated it naturally myself with progesterone cream and now sleep fine again and no longer cry all the time like I did last Summer. His birth was supposed to be my HBA3Cs. I had wanted to do something meaningful for women after my "triumphant" birth. I really felt the medical system had failed me before and I wanted to do what I could to help other women. I had already worked as a postpartum doula and wanted to perhaps do labor support or get into childbirth education, or even midwifery down the road.
Instead, not only did I end up with another cesarean (proceeded by a three day latent phase and a 24 hour active labor with a nearly 12 hour transition), I had a spinal headache for a week afterwards (imagine the worst headache ever), my baby was seperated from me for two days due to his need for oxygen because of a bilateral pneumothorax (likely cesarean caused) and my inability to sit upright because of the spinal headache. He's very healthy now, but it was horrible.
I feel failed- failed by my body for making my babies posterior.
Failed by my midwife who kept insisting my posterior baby wasn't posterior (and yes, I tried everything to get him to turn because it felt like it to me despite her ignorance and prevent this problem as I experienced this with my first baby and yes, I know posterior babies can take longer to birth and was comfortable with waiting if necessary) and failed to call for her backup midwife to relieve her when SHE was tired, so when I even mentioned transfer for pain relief after being at 7cm for 6+ hours with transitional labor and back labor, she instead of providing comfort and encouragement was on the phone to the "backup" Ob/Gyn/cnm group in less than 5 minutes. AND MY BABY WAS FINE! Perfect heartrates the whole time! I was fine too, in pain, but no problems.
I'm angry at the doctor who gave me no time, who I believe lied about my progress. She said I was still 7cm when I was having the kind of bleeding I later found out happens at the end when you are fully dilated (or close to it). She opened me up so fast and ripped through me and caused a verticle tear into my cervix. (But it was of course the fault of my failed body according to her, not her technique.)
I'm angry at all the earthy-birthy people who think that if you do everything right, birth is peaceful and joyous. I did everything right, I worked though my issues not only physically, but emotionally, spiritually, and this still happened. Sometimes it's simply bad luck, or perhaps midwives are human and at fault too. Maybe not as bad as doctors and their demi-god self dellusions, but even direct entry midwives are subject to making decisions based on fear and what's best for them at the time, rather than follow their clients wishes and what's best for a birthing mom.
My dh was the only one who questioned them and supported me, but it wasn't enough.
I'm currently applying for LLL leadership, but with my anger, I question my abilities. I've already been honest with others about my desire to take the process slowly and talked honestly, but not in depth regarding my own issues. I don't want to hear about birth or be near people who talk about birth when makes for a rather crappy LLL leader. I feel as though my empathy level is about at zero. Plus, I know too many others in LLL who don't get it. They had their wonderful homebirths and make little quiet judgements about those "mainstream" birthing women, especially cesarean moms. I had one woman active in the birthing community and a LLL leader tell me that I was lucky because my baby didn't die when I was just one week postpartum. My baby wasn't even in distress. The cesarean wasn't lifesaving. It was another stupid failure to progress thing. Just a total insensitive, moronic comment.
This is my last baby planned and I don't really want to have more children, not because of this, but because 4 is enough for me. I wanted simply to have a baby and be close to him after he was born, to have one positive memory of giving birth, of being near my child in those first moments.
I'm sorry for venting, but it just is so hard. I was on the ICAN list, but I frankly don't want to hear about the triumphant VBACs of others right now. My local ICAN leader failed to get back to me regarding meetings which lead me to believe my story doesn't "look good" for a pro-VBAC group, so she conveniently forgot my existance. I dare not share my experiences in a VBAC forum anywhere because it would scare the crap out of people. I will probably go to a traumatic birth workshop in the next few months, but there is no real closure. I will never have a positive birth. There are no second chances. My plans for the future haved changed because of this and I have no clue where I'm going career wise now. It's like you grow and learn and have these wonderful ideas, plans, hopes, and fate just shot them all down. And it's not about not being grateful for your children. I have been an AP mom since before I knew what AP was (I first heard the term when my second child was one). I just loved them and took care of their needs, not just physcial, but emotional.
Sometimes I think because I have 4 smart, beautiful children and a great husband, I just must not have deserved anymore good to come to me. Maybe I had enough good things and this was to much to hope for.

Sarah

[KPduty]

Sarah,

I started writing a reply and then I realized who you are. I know you first from ICAN (I'm not on that list any more) and also from BirthRage. The last I heard from you I think you were sad and disappointed about your fourth cesarean, but I really had no idea how bad you feel. I don't remember you saying anything about you attendants behaving so badly, either. If you did then please forgive my forgetfulness, I sometimes have a hard time remembering everybodies stories. Are you still on birthrage? If so, maybe you can write to the list about how you are feeling.

I've been through the a few of these stages myself so far. Shock/numbness was first, then anger, searching, more anger, depression, anger some more, depression plus anxiety, back to anger. Occasionally I have better days where I don't feel any of these, but there is always a continual sadness. I doubt that I will ever come to accept my son's birth, though. I wrote this a year ago to the BR list and this is the story in a nutshell:


Where do I even begin? I am mad as hell that I have
two children and have never given birth. It's been
almost fourteen months since my second section and I'm
*still* reeling from the experience.

I have always suspected that we live in a society full
of incompetent people, but after my last "birth" I
know this to be a certainty. I worked so hard to get
the birth I dreamed of. I read everything I could get
my hands on, I went to the chiropractor, found a
midwife, hired a doula, attended meetings of a local
pregnancy support group. I thought if I did
everything right it would all work out. Wrong. I
forgot to take into account the lack of COMPETENCY of
some of the key people I allowed into my birth.

The chiropractor who didn't know the Webster technique
for turning posterior babies, the medwife who
disguised herself as a midwife with her words, her
bohemian clothing and her Birkenstock's, the OB who
scratched my unborn child's head with her f**king
amniohook (why did she do an amniotomy when baby was
OP?), and the anesthetist who gave me an epidural that
didn't work resulting in an unanesthetized cesarean.
I refused to allow her to put me to sleep. To be
awake and see my son's birth was the very bottom line
for me, so the minute after he was born she took it
upon herself to put me out of my misery by giving me a
huge dose of morphine!! It should have been MY
DECISION, not hers. She has no idea what she has
stolen from me. I really hate her the most.

Some days I am grateful for my experiences because if
I had not had them then I might still be an
unthinking, unquestioning woman. Most of the time I
am consumed with rage and sadness over what I have
endured, all the baggage I now must carry and the
total stupidity of people. Maybe I should include
myself in my list of incompetent people, after all it
was me who let them into my birth.

I hate that no one even acknowledge the loss of my
dream birth and one even said she knew I wouldn't be
able to do it after the first cesarean. I hate when I
hear that it's the "journey to VBAC" that really
matters. It's almost like saying "a healthy baby is
all that matters". I know now that I don't need or
want anyone to "assist" me if I ever have another
child.


Ohh yes, I too know the frustrations of posterior babes, insensitive attendants and the ANGER!!! I've had two cesareans because of posterior babes, but my records say FTP, CPD and fetal distress. Total crap!! There is so much I want to say here to you, but I don't even know where to start. I hurts me to know that you are in so much pain. I can identify with so much of what you are feeling.

I have two kids so I still have the dream of maybe one day having the birth I dream of. I can't imagine how it feels to know that's all there is, that all four were cesareans and there will be no more possibilities.

You didn't fail. You know this and that's why your mad as hell. You were failed by the system, by people you trusted to help you give birth without being butchered again. You did/do deserve it. We shouldn't have to hope that we won't get cut again, that staying whole and intact is too much to ask for.

Oh well, now my blood is boiling and I have to go get groceries on the busiest shopping day of the year. Should make for interesting shopping, lol. Sarah, I'm very sorry you are hurting this badly. Do you have anyone to talk to about this? I think it's important to work through your stuff. If you keep it inside it will eat you alive.

[Ms. Mom]

I feel so bad for both of you. Thank you for sharing with us something so deep.

Yes, you are greiving for that birth that you missed. It's a huge disapointment that others around you don't understand.
'You have a healthy baby, why focus on the negative?'

Anger is the hardest stage of greif. Please know that it's perfectly normal to feel that way. Feelings are so important and you own them. Take the time you need to explore thoese feelings - only then can you move through them.

I think the tramatic birth recovery class is a wonderful idea. I've also heard of women creating a 're-birth' situation. There are a handfull of books with suggestions. Continue to reach out for the support you need. Your situation is one that many people do not understand.

For what it's worth. You did give birth, your body nurtured your babies and they flurished inside of you. You brought them to your breast after a c-section (which I've heard is quite difficult). You have given them life.

I wish you both gentleness.

[Sarah_Elizabeth]

KP,
Thanks for your reply. I'm sure I know you, but I don't know by your name here, but that's okay. TO be honest, I talk about it mainly with my dh. He seems to be the only person in real life who "gets it". I don't know, it hurts, but it doesn't stop my life and I'm a pretty happy person overall. It's just hard for most people to understand I think or they just don't want to talk about it. I was on Birthrage, but now I'm just on the no-mail version and haven't read anything for a long time. It kind of put me off when I first told my story on there when Leilah tried to use my story as an example to someone else of what not to do, like I did something wrong. I don't feel as though I did. Although they other side of me also knows that in my situation, I would have been better off with dh alone and doing it unassisted (with a fetoscope and/or rented doppler). He was my only real support through my whole labor. I just don't like my raw, real feelings being more not validated, but instead my choices questioned. Many, many people transfer during extremely prolonged labors and often it's the luck of the draw as to what physician you get. I thought my backup was good, but they weren't what I thought them to be based of their reputations.
I also had my experienced chiropractor come and do Webster DURING labor and it did nothing. Actually, I think it made my tranverse baby totally posterior and my water broke during it. That's when things got much, much worse in fact.
I'm working on it, giving myself time to heal and enjoy my children and I do have so many blessings, but sometimes I guess I just need to vent. It's hard to know just how and where.
...still growing...stil working on myself...as usual!

[Ms. Mom]

SE, thank you for again for sharing this. So many people want to jump in and judge a situation that they did not live. You did everything you could in the situation you were given.

I'm so glad you dh understands your feelings and that you can turn to him for support.

Feel free to post here when ever you need support. You are moving through a greif situation and your journey is important.

On a side note, I'm glad the baby is doing well and that you and dh are enjoying him.

[moondancer]

((((((Sarah))))))

My heart just went out to you as I read your post.

My first babe was born c-section after 9 months of prenatal with a midwife. My reason for the 'c' was due to an infection and my midwife wouldn't deliver me. I met the OB while I was in labor. It turned out okay and I was bummed to have lost my first attempt, but what REALLY PISSED ME OFF was my mil went around telling people that I "failed to progress'!!! That word of FAILURE cut me to the quick. I had NOT failed--excuse me.

So comes baby #2--new town new OB. DD was born VBAC and she was posterior-- weighing a whopping 9'14"! I'm glad I didn't know this before hand (that she was sunny side up) and that my OB was willing to let me go for it. 11 hours of HARD LABOR with only 1 shot of demerol. No episiotomy either. I ripped to shreds but the OB followed my wishes.

I'm sorry your experience was this painful and you have every right to be pissed as hell. I just wonder if I have forgiven my MIL yet for her typically insensitive remark.

peace, moondancer

[lisamarie]

Kathleen~

This is the thread that I was referring to. I hope you find it helpful.

Hugs~

Lisa

[Kathleen]

Thank you for bumping this, Lisa!!

Wow - I began in this forum by writing about my sister who was murdered in November 2000, and then Lisa was kind enough to bump this thread, which is exactly what I needed to read: I have not only grieved the loss of my sister, but my traumatic birth as well. And I was not glad for your experiences, but glad to read about them, Sarah Elizabeth and KPduty. First of all, I am full of empathy for both of you. PLANNING to "do it right," loving your child, thinking you are doing everything you can to prepare for a gentle, bonding, birth experience, and then having it screwed up by "professionals" is awful, awful awful, and it happened to me too. I haven't even ever written my "birth story" because (well, one of the reasons is that I'm the mama of a 6 month old who doesn't nap or sleep alone - which is great - but it keeps me busy) - but the other, deeper reason is, of course, that it would mean re-living it. I've written condensed versions and talked about it, but I've yet to delve into the whole thing.

I will say that I was SO glad to hear someone else say she was tired of hearing "all that matters is you have a healthy baby" (or some version of that) - when people said that to me after hearing about my birth, I felt angry and violated. NO, that's not all that matters; YES, that matters supremely - that, of course, is what we hope and pray for, and if that is not the case, certainly we are affected (depending upon exactly how non-healthy the baby is) hugely. But how WE feel also matters. It is separate from but entwined with those feelings about our babies - the reason most of us WANT to have gentle, bonding, beautiful births is as much FOR our children as for us (if not moreso)! Because we believe that is the best way for them to enter the world; because we believe they will be calmer, happier, more secure, etc., if WE are those things. I feel like we "ap" people (and of course some of us were that before that term was popular ) - I mean, it should go without saying - we LOVE our children; we want what is best for them above all else. But when others pretend that who WE are doesn't matter, that our feelings are not important, that somehow our children exist in a vacuum and that "all that matters is their health," it angers and hurts me - and I go back to the old cliches about "you can't love anyone else unless you love yourself." I think: how can I teach my child to value and cherish herself if I do not value and cherish MYself, which means valuing and respecting and honoring and RECOGNIZING my feelings, whatever they may be. I think it's ignorant and cruel to tell a mother her birth experience didn't really matter because her child is "healthy." I do not think having a healthy brain, a strong heartbeat and all limbs intact 100% defines "healthy"; my daughter is wonderful but she has certain emotional sensitivities, and I often think that is because of her horrible, pitocin-rich, epidural-blunted, fever-ridden, violent, forceps-delivered birth.

Hm - as you can see, I stumbled upon something I have been thinking about since my dd was born. (There are no coincidences... )

Thank you again, Lisa, for your words in my thread, and for this bump.

Would someone tell me what "birthrage" is? It doesn't sound as though you, Sarah Elizabeth, totally recommend it? Should I get involved? I would LOVE to go to a birth grief workshop - does anyone know any names or where I might find information? I can ask my local LLL, which I'm joining, but I thought I would ask here as well. Thanks-

love and peace,
kathy

[gabner]

I am a doctoral student and recently took a family grief course. Stage theories of grief are becoming less popular, I don't believe in them. You might want to read some articles by Kathleen Gilbert (Indiana University) as she is becoming perhaps the leading "expert" on family grief (she was my professor). She is a very nice woman and a recent grandmother (and the baby is breastfed).

[JessicaS]

I haven't seen anything in her articles online to suggest she doesn't believe in the stages of grieving.

maybe you could give us a link or something that suggests this...

she does mention the "process" which I think is the same thing IMO...

[Greaseball]

Denial

(I don't really believe in concrete "stages", but here's an excerpt from something I'm writing.)

When I first got the message that Harley's friends left on my pager, "Harley drowned. You've gotta call us back, and you've gotta call your mom." I thought they were joking. That thought lasted only a second, and then I knew my brother was gone. Now I deny it all the time. I tell myself that he faked his death to get out of being sued for backing out of his lease, or that someone found him in the water, still alive, and kidnapped him. Sometimes I like to think that he hit his head and is wandering around the woods somewhere, completely brain-damaged. Or that he washed up on the beach in California and met some people and decided to stay there and lost our phone numbers and has no idea everyone thinks he's dead. Maybe he didn't really die, but he's at the bottom of the lake, and the water is cold enough to preserve him, and someday someone will find him and be able to revive him.

[Greaseball]

Anger

I tried to be angry. I thought maybe it would help me if I could feel some kind of strong emotion. I wrote Harley a letter, which I dropped in the lake during his service, and the first line was "Harley, you dumb greaseball! Why didn't you wear a life jacket?" If he were alive, I would beat the crap out of him for making me hurt so much. I tried to be angry at the friends that were with him, who survived, because I thought I would feel better if there were someone to blame for this. I tried to be angry at God. I guess I'm really just too hurt to be angry.

[Greaseball]

Bargaining

Every so often, I ask God to please bring Harley back, and I promise that I'll change and all those other promises people make to God when they want something. I read an example of someone's work in my writing textbook that made me cry: "Offer God anything to bring your brother back. Know you have nothing that God would want."

[moondancer]

Thanks for sharing your grief, your pain.

When my sister died there were times when I actually forgot she was gone--for a split second--when I wanted to call her up and share something funny that only she would understand. Gone was my compatriot of inside jokes, family history, sister silliness.

Anger? I am reliving a whole bunch of it right now as I revisit my grief while I heal from my own cancer. It sucks on one hand and is actually freeing on the other. I wrote her an angry letter at the beginning too. I still have it. Now I have new anger issues, but am dealing with it as I journal and release.

Keep writing and purging and releasing GREASEBALL. And thanks for allowing us a glimpse into your process.

peace, moondancer

[Greaseball]

oh yeah...

Oops, this was supposed to be about birth not going the way you wanted it. Well, I had all these expectations about how my birth would be - I thought it would be short and painless and glorious, and at home, and that the baby wouldn't cry, I would deliver in the empowering squatting position, and I wasn't going to allow any interventions of any sort.

Well, I ended up delivering in the hospital, with an IV. It lasted 38 hours and of course it hurt - I don't know why I thought it wouldn't. I had the doc break my water after staying at 5 cm for 6 hours, and every time I pushed in the squat position I threw up. After pushing for 4 hours and still getting nowhere, I asked the doc to use forceps, and she did, with me flat on my back in stirrups. Oh yeah, and the baby cried when she was born.

But strangely, I wasn't upset. I got what was most important to me - a female doctor, drug-free birth, and the baby never left my side the whole time we were in the hospital.

But I think it's totally normal to go through a number of grief stages when birth doesn't go the way you want. I felt a little bit of guilt - like if I hadn't stopped lifting weights while I was pregnant, I wouldn't have gotten exhausted and needed the forceps.