God Creates Evil?

[Rainbow]

Isa 45:7-
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I was wondering how Christians felt about this. Do you think God creates evil, or was this an expression of some sort?

[Meiri]

If you're following the internal logic of Christianity, that that God created EVERYTHING, then of course he created evil too. Or maybe the potential for evil, since it is believed that he gave humanity Free Will?

just my considered opinion, though without Dark, there is no way to define Light, and vice versa....

[Soontobe3]

ITA

God created the Heavens and Earth and everything on/in them.

And without light, there can be no darkness and vice versa.

I also think it has to do with free will. I think we ALL have the capabilities to be evil - but we make the daily choice (conciously or subconciously) NOT to be evil.

[Rainbow]

So he created the potential for evil, rather than evil itself. I can swollow that... thanks for the replies.

[Rainbow]

I'm back... gonna take this out a bit more now... I started sort of reading and thinking on it after I read the posts and remembered the scripture about the potter. it took forever, but it is Romans 9:15-23. It specifically says that god causes some to do wrong and... well, I'll just quote:

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

It is likened to a potter and says that a potter has the right to make two different pots from the same lump- one for an honorable use and one for a dishonorable use. After saying he would harden Pharoah.

Then there are the implications that God chooses those he wants to follow him-

Thoughts on this scripture?

[DaryLLL]

Rainbow, you're trying to open a huge can of worms.

If you take the bible literally, you will quite soon tie yourself in knots trying to harmonize the varying views of God and religion therein. Apologists try, in the book itself, and in the centuries since the canons were chosen.

Reading and rereading the bible, and commentaries, I have found that the book shows the evolution of (a portion of) humanity's relationship to God and "his" prophets, both in the Tanakh and in the Greek scriptures. If we expect it all to co-ordinate, we will be disappointed.

Apropos to your potter's clay comments, here is a similar disturbing chapter. YHWH puts a lying spirit into the mouths of his own true prophets to trick the kings of Israel and Judah to go to war with the king of Aram at Ramoth-gilead.
1 Kings 22.

[Rainbow]

I don't know that I'm looking to open any worms. As background I've been Christian and I am coming out of it and into a more agnostic thought. With any big change like that though comes doubt... the need to verify and really truly look for the answers to what I feel is wrong to "make sure" my decision is the right one. More than opening a can of worms I was looking for a logical explanation.

You know, I haven't read kings in awhile... I'll go check that out.

[DaryLLL]

Hope I didn't scare you with my can of worms comments. Did you find my explanation logical? The evolution of relationship to god idea?

[Meiri]

Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

And thus there is no Free Will, and thus no one is guilty of any crimes they might have commited because it was God's will that they do them. Had he not wanted that murderer to commit that murder, he'd've have stopped him.

just my take on this, and DH's I know from previous conversations, and why I don't subscribe to those beliefs.

[Rainbow]

I just wanted to clarify I thought maybe you thought I was leading debate or sh1t stirring

I've found so many endless contradictions and issues, and nobody from my church has been able to help me grasp it all. For me, leaving my religion means getting shunned by all my friends and DH's family. To make any decision that large I really need to be sure, you know? My DH is struggling more because he is the one who will loose his family. mine aren't of this religion.

Anyway, since this is religious studies I figured maybe someone could defend it logically. I erally wasn't looking to trap or stir anything

I totally get your response... thank you

[DaryLLL]

Rainbow,

Thanks for the background. I have been reading your posts and since you seemed logical and questioning, I did not know you were coming from a fundamentalist environment. That is hard. Hopefully you will not "lose" dh's family entirely over this. Hopefully they can still love you even if you are not in lock-step with them religion-wse. My dh's family is fundie and they still love us. They stopped sending us tracts yrs ago!

Have you read Bishop John Shelby Spong? He is very prolific and is a staunch Anglican, but believes in Jesus Christ as a spirit being. Probably the best book of his to start with is Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism.

BTW, this new board is for the tough questions. A bit of sh!t stirring is OK! :LOL

[Rainbow]

I've seen that book at amazon, and I've been considering it. Now I have a reason to buy it
So far I've bought:
Unauthorized Version, The : Truth and Fiction in the Bible by Robin Lane Fox
Jesus in History and Myth by Hoffmann, R. Joseph; Larue, Gerald A.
Think on These Things by Krishnamurti, Jiddu
The Great Cosmic Mother : Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth
The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

BTW, this new board is for the tough questions. A bit of sh!t stirring is OK! :LOL

:LOL :LOL

[samuelsmom]

There are so many voices in scripture (as DaryLLL points out) that you cannot take all of the literally without becoming scizophrenic, imo. It is possible to be Christian and not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. I get from DaryLLL's post that you are coming from a fundamentalist Christianity, and that debate is always a hot one...

Being a good Christian does not mean that you have to check your brain at the door of the church, imo! Kudos to you for questioning and studying and caring truly about what you believe in!

Peace.

[Tales from the Dad]

Out of curiosity regarding the use of the word "evil" in your original quote, I took a look at the New International Version of Isaiah 45:7

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I the LORD, do all these things."

Obviously, there is a huge difference between saying that the god creates evil versus creating disaster. Imo, when investigating the finer points of theology it helps to remember you are dealing with translations. I'm no hebraist myself and would be interested in knowing what the actual hebrew word in question here is.

just wanted to put my two cents in. BTW not a troll here, my GF posts here and I've been meaning to do so. this is just the first thread to catch my eye.

[Rainbow]

I think I quoted KJV above.

The Hebrew is: yatsar 'owr bara' choshek `asah shalowm bara' ra` YHWH `asah

ra/rah is Strong # 07451 which says:

7451 ra` rah from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

Some other translations:

NLT - Isa 45:7 - I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NKJV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NASB - Isa 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Isa 45:7 - I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Webster - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

Young - Isa 45:7 - Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Isa 45:7 - forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

ASV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

HNV - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

they surely do use various words to represent the hebrew word "ra", but they all have very similar meaning and according to strongs are accurate as well. It seems the majority of the "leading" translations use the word evil, which is why I chose that particular rendering.

[Rainbow]

BTW- welcome to the board!!

[DaryLLL]

In my understanding, it was the belief of the ancient Hebrews (ca writing down of beliefs and sacred "history," approx 600 BCE) that YHWH was the creator of all things, good and evil.

By the time of the release from Persian captivity, along with the language of Aramaic, was the adoption of certain beliefs of Zoroastrianism, including "dualism," the idea of forces of light (God) and forces of darkness(Satan) in conflict. (Some say Pharisee means Parsee, or Persian.)

This was an evolution of belief and cannot be harmonized.

Here is where a reading of Pagel's The Origins of Satan would come in handy.

[Rainbow]

Thanks D- I might check into getting that book

[Tales from the Dad]

thanks for the welcome, Rainbow

well you certainly have enough translations! and it does look like it says that God creates evil...

I wonder how that relates to genesis, I don't have any where near the number of versions you have, but doesn't the creation story have darkness already in existence prior to God creating light and everything?

just wondering what you think...