Worried sick about my little girls summer with a verbally abusive father

[tausborn]

I am getting divorced. I have two little girls, aged 5 and 2. On May 21st, my soon to be X (stbx) gets them for 6 weeks this summer. Here is what my 5 yo told me that he has said to her:

"Your mother is a fucking bitch."
"I'm not happy and it's all your mother's fault. Everything is your mother's fault."
"You go into the living room and make a mess all over the floor. You don't have to pick up after yourself." (while on the phone with her)
"Next time you get mad at mom, call me and I'll come get you and take you to Texas forever."

These are things she volunteered to me. I don't quiz her.

When she comes back from weekend visitation, she usually goes through a meltdown. At first she's ok. Somber. Then she's needy. Then, she seems to get re-secured. Then she melts down. The meltdown always happens on Tuesday. After she's had time to get to feeling safe again. During the biggest one, 2 visitations ago, she was standing in the living room, with her fists clenched by her side, screaming at me "I hate you because you're not nice to daddy!" She screamed other stuff too. That was when she screamed at me that "It's all your fault..."

I do not say bad things about him. I do not call him names. I do not discuss adult issues with the girls. I told them that daddy and I would be "not married" anymore and that they would be living with me, but would be visiting daddy, and would be able to talk to him anytime.

I always call him if she wants to talk to him. If he calls, I answer the phone. If he calls and we aren't here, I immediately call him back. He got a webcam, so I got a webcam so he could "see" the girls and visit with them too. He now, mysteriously, doesn't seem to have a webcam anymore. He doesn't call much. And when he does, my 5 yo will not talk to him in the room alone. (she did at first, but won't now). In fact, she puts him on speaker phone... She will NOT talk to him any other way. He tells her he wishes she wouldn't use the speaker phone, but she ignores it. If I leave the room to give them privacy, she follows me. (I tried to encourage her to speak to him without the speaker phone. Last time, I even told her to go to her room to talk to him... she followed my mother around the house instead.) He says things like "I need to get you alone so I can really talk to you." He drills her about where I am and what I'm doing. He says that I won't let her speak to him privately... that I am interfering with him. I'm sure he believes that I am interfering, but I really am not. She just does not want to talk to him alone.

I am taking her to a child pscyhologist.

There is a clause in the standard visitation order about "derogatory remarks." It states that each party is 'enjoined and restrained' from making derogatory remarks... and that violation of this provision can result in a loss of visitation. I have told my lawyer about this stuff, and apparently we can't do anything about it unless she tells it to a third party.

Well, so, that means that I'm supposed to take her to a psychologist that can "get it out of her" so we can get back at her dad... ??? I started taking her to the psychologist to help her adjust, not to use her...

How hard can it be to tell the man to grow up and be decent or else? Does anyone have any ideas? Why is this so screwed up?

Help Please!
Teresa

[mocha09]

The pyscholgist *will* help her adjust, and will help her to be free from this abusive situation. This is not using her. Please, it sounds like a third party really needs to give an opinion to the courts for the safety of your daughter. I can't imagine that this would be in any way immoral. The psychologist can serve two roles: one, to help your daughter emotionally, and another, to serve as an advocate for her rights (not to be placed in an abusive situation).

Good luck to you. I hope that you get documentation from a third party soon for the protection of your daughter. My heart goes out to you. What a terrible place to be.

Please check in and let us know how it is going.

[brusselsprout]

s

I don't really have anything to add to what Mocha said, but wanted to let you know we are here for you

[the sunshine]

This is so hard! My ex is really similar, and the courts don't seem to care at all. If there are no bruises, it doesn't exist, verbal and emotional abuse just don't seem to be a priority.

Feel good about taking your daughter to a psychologist. It should be a big help to her. Frankly, what you are telling us is sending up huge red flags for me. Why is he so insistent on "getting her alone"?

I'm sorry any of us have to go thru this. Hugs to you.

[tausborn]

Thank you for your replies and support.

I meant to ask: Should I take her to her psych a lot before the summer visitation and try to get something documented now? I guess, obviously, I should... He will feel free to say whatever he wants until we finally have a breakthrough with the psychologist and can document something. If I don't push now... I can't do anything. Then again, since the divorce is in progress and he is currently extremely hostile, it's possible that a slap on the hand will make him worse.

Then there is also the fact that it costs $75 per session, and I can only manage part time work with two little ones, and he is not current with child support either.

She also told me that she missed me really bad one night, but couldn't call me... she did not state that daddy wouldn't let her... But I got the impression that he is actually keeping her from calling. He can just tell her that he knows I'm not home, or that it's too late to call, or any old excuse.

She can dial a number that is written down, but she doesn't have anyone's number memorized yet. I don't know if she can memorize 11 digits yet.

AND, he is also switching from a land line to a cell phone only, which could mean that she won't even have a phone available to call me unless it's convenient for him.

Okay... I guess I'd like know if I should just push her into talking to the psych or not. She's very smart, and she avoids the psych's questions about him... which means that she has been told to keep quiet or that she knows that he's doing wrong and is trying to protect him. It's very hard to figure out how to handle a 5 yo brain!

What do you think? Push, or just wait and see...

Thank God that he considers little Katie, only 2, to be too young to "work over."

Sunshine: The courts DON'T care, unless he beats or rapes them! It's so frustrating. What red flags are going up for you? I mean, I'm on red alert, but I just wondered if you see more than I?

The "getting her alone," was over the phone... he wanted to speak to her privately so he can "work her over." I'm just about 99% sure that he is not sexually interested in her. When he can't get her to take him off of speaker phone and go to a room alone, he says "Well, since I can't really speak to you right now, I've got to go." No one needs privacy to say normal things like how's life? are you fine? whatcha doin? tell me about your day? He spends 2 minutes on those things and then starts in on how he can "really" speak to her because it's not private...

If you've been through this, what did you do?

Thank you,
Teresa

[the sunshine]

I wasn't implying anything sexual. Just the fact that he has to speak to her without you hearing is very suspicious.( My ex is very loud and if dd is in the same room with him on the phone, I can hear almost everything. He says some unacceptable things to her, as far as I'm concerned) I think you're right to be suspicious about getting rid of the land line, see if you can't get it written into the agreement that he has to have a land line. I bet she doesn't want to be alone on the phone with him because she knows what he's going to say. And she doesn't want to hear it.

Children should be allowed to phone the other parent WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, if he isn't letting her, he's in violation. I heard my ex say to my son, "don't ever f*ing cll mom without asking me first!" But again, the courts doesn't seem to care.

Quit being so nice to him. Don't call him back right away. Don't make special arrangements for him.
Send along a schedule that tells him exactly what days and times you will be calling the kids, and he'd better have them there for you to talk to. Add to that that you expect the children will be allowed to call you whenever they want.

I'm sorry, this sounds like it's going to be so hard on both you and the kids. Hopefully he'll get sick of playing dad and send them home early.

[waterproofmascara]

Just a thought- can you get your daughter one of those cheap pre-paid cell phones to take with her when she goes to his house? You can program your number into it, and then she could just press 1 button and reach you anytime she needed to... That might make it a little easier on both you and her.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by tausborn

Well, so, that means that I'm supposed to take her to a psychologist that can "get it out of her" so we can get back at her dad... ??? I started taking her to the psychologist to help her adjust, not to use her...[/b]

Please don't make that leap. Having a psychologist encourage her to share this is not not not using her. It is protecting her from the situation.

"I need to get you alone so I can really talk to you." He says that to a 5 year old. The man is warped. It sounds as though he is trying very hard to turn your daughter against you.

It is screwed up because HE is screwed up. You can't make him grow up and be decent. My guess is that the more you tell him to do so, the worse he will get.

Take her to the psychologist. Do whatever you can to keep both of your children from having to spend 6 weeks with this man. Heck, at this point, I'd be going for supervised visitation.

[Dragonfly]

One other thing: Ask your lawyer about the laws in your state for tape recording conversations. It may be that you can record without his knowledge. If that's the case, record him telling her he needs to speak to her alone, and figure out a way to have your phone tapped when she does speak with him without the speakerphone.

[Soul-O]

Have you undergone a child custody evaluation? If not, please ask your attorney if this is a possibility for you. The evaluation determines who should have primary custody as well as proper visitation parameters. The evaluator is generally a very experienced psychologist/family therapist who will conduct lengthy interviews with both you and your ex and will evaluate the children as well. I am currently going through this process with my ex, and I feel it is the best thing you can do if you suspect that your daughter is being verbally and emotionally abused by her father. The main reason I recommend this in your case is that your ex is an abuser, and abusers cannot hide from the evaluator - these folks are trained to discover abusive traits, and will order counseling, supervised visitation, anger management etc. as is needed so that your ex will not continue to hurt your daughters.

Best of luck to you - coming your way.

[*Erin*]

oh honey, what a terrible situation. i wouldn't send the kids back there until they've seen the phychiatrist, and there's been some investigation in his direction. he sounds like a bitter, angry, VOLITILE man. you be safe, mama, and keep your babies close to you. i hope you find resolve with the situation very quickly.

[mocha09]

Definitely begin tape recording all conversations, even if they are on speakerphone. His behavior about getting her alone to talk to her is also significant. If the law in your state requires both parties to have consent, let him know that all calls to your hosue will be taped. Sounds like he doesn't have much self control anyway.

[fishy]

i am so sorry that you have to deal with this.

i want to say a few things. 1. a child phsychologist is not going to use your daughter. if you have a discussion with him/her b4 your daughter ever has a session, and explain what is going on (the emotional abuse, verbal abuse, name calling etc) she will help your daughter deal with those things. she is trained to do this and will not be at blatant as jsut saying 'does your daddy say mean things?' she knows the 5 yr old mind. and she knows kids dont want to talk bad about either of thier parents. she really can help your daughter. and a by product of that is getting the 3rd party documentation you need to keep her safe from this in the future for the courts. do not feel bad.

2. i totally agree with the cell phone idea for your daughter. but i guess it would only work if your stbx didnt take it from her. you could send instructions that he not touch it. but will he listen?

3. it has been mentioned to me that in certian states there are laws thru (CPS maybe?) that a house that a child lives in must have a telephone connected by a landline. it is for safety resons and 911. i think the thought behind it is that if you call 911 from a cell phone they dont know where you are and if a child calls, they may not know the address of where they are to tell the 911 person. you could look into that for your state. (i have been told it is a law in the state of CT, but have not looked it up in my state). if it is the law in your state, even if it is a reccomendation made by CPS, then you have soemthing to to say about your stbx not having a landline phone.

4. Could you see a psychologist yourself? it could help you tremendously to sort out whats going on for you and your daughters. there are lots of sliding scale and low cost (or i guess, low income) practitioners out there. i am not currently seeing one, b/c of money and not having the energy to find a sliding scale one, but the few times i have had sessions with a phychologist, it made me feel a lot better. look into it. you have to take care of yourself thru this, too.

hugs to you mama. it is wrong how your stbx is treating you and your children. he should not be using your child(ren) in this way. do your best to keep them safe. i know its really infuriating to have to hand your children over to someone you dont trust. i worked out getting every other weekend with my son for the summer (5 weeks) while he is at his dads. his dad isnt as bad as your stbx, but he is untrustworthy as well. will you at least be able to see them intermitantly while they are visiting with him? if not, i think 6 weeks is too long for a 2 year old. is this visitation a court order? or something you came up with yourselves?

i also agree with the other poster who said you are being too nice and too accomadating to your stbx. if he calls and your not home, unless its really urgent, then you missed his call. you dont hve the obligation to call him back immediately or to jump when the phone rings. i generally do answer the phone when its stbx, but if im not home, and he leaves a message, i do not call back unless ds wants to. and 9 times out of ten, he is content to hear his fathers message and go on doing what he is doing. he ususally doesnt want to call back. your stbx does not get to control you like that. and you shouldnt let him. you are divorced now. its really hard to stop old behaviors, and its hard to know how much you should do to facilitate the relationship btwn your daughters and him, but jumping for every phone call is IMO too much. esp when you know hte damage he does. anyway, thats all. i wish you luck,and keep us updated?

[tausborn]

Tormented by my little girls summer visitation with evil father

Hi all,

My daughters are into their third week with their dad. I call every other day (which my lawyer gave her blessing... god forbid I should overstep the bounds of whatever my lawyer thinks is appropriate). They never answer my calls. He has a house cell phone, a personal cell phone, and a phone at work. None of the phones are ever answered when I call. I will leave a message that I want to say hi to the girls, and when it suites him, he lets the older one call me at 9:50, which means that she has only 10 minutes on the phone with me before her bedtime.

His mother was there last week for 2-1/2 days, and she stayed at home with the girls. SHE let Alex call me. It was so great to be able to talk to her and hear Katie... I felt so much better about them being gone. When grandma left, Steve put a stop to that! It's horrible. He won't let her call, except under the most rigid circumstances. She is supposed to be able to call me when ever she wants!

My lawyer sent a letter to his lawyer about this... but it did no good.

I tried to get the child pscyhologist to obtain statements from Alex regarding this, but she let Alex lead her around by the nose... Alex knows that Dad isn't being fair, and she's trying to protect him... Poor baby. But, this psych is stupid, so I'm changing to another doctor.

I'm so frustrated and angry. Why is the system like this? Why is he allowed to violate court ordered decree and cause emotional anguish to his own chilren, and me. I mean, I know it's not being beaten, but he is working them over every day. Last time I talked to Alex she yelled at me for yelling at daddy when he came home from work... That's a whole new thing she suddenly started talking about. Not something she remembered ever happening until after one weekend with dad last month.

He is a bitter, angry, nasty man... but I can't keep them from visitation. I am told that they HAVE to go. When I have spoken to Alex, she says, "Mom, i've been here long enough now, come get me." I so wish to... Instead I have to tell her that the Judge said that she had to spend this much time with her daddy every summer. That she should try to call when she feels homesick, and I'll see her soon. That summer will end, and then she will be back with me all the time... It just breaks my heart. Yes, the court ordered 6 weeks visitation with their dad for a five year old and a two year old with severe asthma whom I was still breastfeeding.

I thought about getting her a cell phone, but he would just take it from her and tell her she lost it. He would have zero qualms about doing that.

I don't understand why there is NOTHING my lawyer can do... I'm not certain she's got the right attitude... She seems to be very knowledgable and she is experienced and very intelligent. Our area, Pope Co. Arkansas, is extremely supportive of father's rights... I've heard that a father was given full visiation to his 4 yr old sun after 2 people testified that they witnessed him laying drunk on the couch while his 4 yr old played with a loaded gun 5 feet away... I've heard from numerous sources, not just from my lawyer, that you have to really be dealing with beatings or rapes before anyone will violate a father's rights.

But, I'm not even trying to stop his visitation, I just want him to be DECENT! Why can't we slap him on the wrist? My lawyer always tells me that it'll be ok... she thinks that he will fade. We are about to cite him in contempt of court, however, for failing to pay alimony and any medical bills for the girls. (He told me over the phone two weeks ago "Stop asking me for medical bills! I shouldn't have to pay those!") We are waiting until his summer visitation is over to do it. Maybe she's planning to hit him up with other things to... but hasn't bothered to explain it to me in detail.

Maybe she's waiting to see what the new doctor will come up with when seeing Alex...

I am supposed to be able to reach them at all times, and I don't even know if they are in daycare or not. The daycare that he said they would be going to will only tell me that HE has to give them permission before they can even tell me if the children are there. Well, I'm going to have my lawyer take care of that next week. That's ridiculous! I'm the custodial parent, and they are just visiting him. Unfortunately, my lawyer is out this week. Last week they were at his house during the day, after he told me that they would be in daycare all summer.

He is even having someone else answer his phone at work... Well, he could be in meetings all day, but I do not believe it. No, I'm not harassing him... Only two days in three weeks have I tried to call him at work. One time, the guy who answered said hang on, and then I heard him talking to Steve in the background, before he came back and said that Steve would be in and out of meetings all day. Sheeesh!

It kind of sounds like he's afraid of me... maybe he is some... he usually gets lost in the conversations when he is angry. I am not out to get him. I just want to be informed. He has always played games with people about plans and family visits and stuff, just to get the ego kick from being in control. I think that he can't imagine anyone NOT playing games and stabbing people in the back... so he just assumes I am plotting against him. He has sent letters to my lawyer about things that are silly accusations and are easily disproved. The latest one accused me of interfering with his visitation time by not showing up at the pickup point until 6:30. Ummm... 6:30 is the time that he requested that we meet at the pickup point when visitation started; thoroughly documented by his lawyer and mine!

I get the girls this weekend (we get alternating weekends during summer here in AR)... for two, only two! little days. Then, they go back for another two whole weeks. I am just completely crushed... I don't know how I'm going to make it through it, I don't even know how I will be able to make myself let go of them come Sunday when he shows up for them... I'm not doing very well right now. I've got IBS cramps soooo bad that I'm taking painkillers and I can't sleep and I can't eat.

I keep telling myself that next year can't be as bad... they will be older, hopefully he will have chilled out a little. Everyone says it gets better... I hope they are right.

It's so hard. And my hands just seem to be tied completely.

If you read this far, bless you!
Teresa

[waterproofmascara]

Mama, I don't really know what to say to you, but I felt like I should say something. You are in an awful situation, and I don't know what to do to help you and your girls. I just offer you s but I know that's not nearly enough. I could offer you platitudes such as don't worry, but that really seems ridiculous at this point.
I wish I could offer more than just telling you that I am thinking of you and your girls. I hope you at least enjoy your weekend with them, and aren't too devastated when they have to go back... you really are in a hard spot, and I just pray you and your girls make it through...

[mocha09]

Thanks so much for updating us. I'm so sorry that things are going like this. There is really nothing I can say....

[comet]

I'm so sorry. I don't know what else to say.

Is he taking the kids for 6 weeks just to make you miserable? Or does he really want to be responsible and love them? If you think he is doing it to make you miserable, then clamp down on the misery. In fact, let him know how what you are doing with your free time. Say you are making many new friends and are really resting. Let his imagination do the rest. He might decide that the best way to "get" you is to quit babysitting for you. Just a thought, keeping in mind that I don't know much about your x.

[tausborn]

Hi all,

Starting the 5th week of summer visitation, so only 2 weeks left.

I did have the girls last weekend. It was glorious, wonderful, amazing. They didn't want to go back. I spoke to Alex about it; I have told her in the past about the Law and the Judge, (who decides stuff when people get "not married"). I told her that the Judge had said she was to spent more time with her father during the summer, and that was what we had to do. I don't want her to believe that she was at her dad's because I didn't want her.

Katie just did not understand that she would be leaving again. For the weekend visitations she was willing to go with Steve or Jeffrey (their best 16 yo half-brother) into her car seat. But this time, she wouldn't let them touch her. She clung to me and screamed when I finally handed her off to Steve. Alex teared up too. It was so awful.

I have been all over my lawyer about Steve's phone games. I visited her office twice this last week about the issue. Her assistant called me Friday and said that they had sent a letter over to his lawyers, but, she didn't say what it was for... we have numerous issues in discussion. I assume it was about the communication breakdown. I can not get a hold of him or anyone in his household by phone, email or messenger... since the girls started their visitation.

I tried to email him last week and when there was no reply, I asked him if he had received my emails during pickup. He said something about too much junk mail to read his mail. BS. I know that his email program has extensive junk mail filters AND my email address is teresa at ausborn.com... his own domain is ausborn.com and his email is steve at ausborn.com. No way that got sent to junk mail, unless he is purposely bouncing it. Two days later, I tried to logon to teresa at ausborn.com and he had deleted the account.

We were using messenger to discuss minor scheduling or health issues, right up until summer visitation. Ever since the girls have been at his house, he has blocked me out from his three messenger addresses.

There is no mistaking that it is all deliberate.

Oh yeah, AND, the daycare that they are supposed to be at will only tell me that they are not allowed to even tell me if the girls are attending that daycare unless the father says it's okay... I am the custodial parent! This is the daycare that Steve said they would be going to, but I have no way of knowing if they are even there. They could be anywhere.

My lawyer's long time assistant said that the thing about the daycare was very wrong, and that I should fax the divorce order to the daycare. I almost did, but then decided not to... what is that going to get me? Steve will get supremely angry if I do that, and then I probably won't hear from the girls at all... So, unless someone is ready to make him be decent and answer his phones and let the girls call me, then it's just going to make things worse.

Yes, comet, he does know that it upsets me... and he would indeed like to ruin any good time of mine, but not with the girls just yet. He is determined to look like a good / devoted parent right now so he will keep them no matter how much fun I'm having.

Until he got a lawyer, two months after we left (we initially just separated), he had not once called them. After he met with his lawyer, he suddenly started calling them.

And, BTW, Alex HAS memorized my cell number... so I am pretty certain that she does not have a phone available to call me with, or she would. I thought from the beginning that he would keep the phone out of her reach... no real way to prove it though.

It's horrible, and I am having a really hard time.

The worst thing is, after being gone for 6 weeks, when they do come back... I fear they will never totally trust me again... Katie, who is so young, will be constantly wondering when mom will abandon her again. Alex will have a head full of "mom is a bitch" stuff and will have been told to do all sorts of things that will get her into trouble with ME. I just, I don't know, I really wonder if they will have been turned against me.

Someone out there has been through this with a very, very bad ex...

How do I handle the girls when they get back? How long before they feel secure and trusting again. Will they be forever changed?

Thank you again... it does help to know that someone out there hearing me.

[ktmama]

Teresa, honey. This is really hard. I've been through so much of what you are going through now. I do have some advice.

1. Document everything. Keep a journal and just document, document, document.
2. Learn objectively from what's going on and make a different plan for next time. For example, change your parenting plan to include some accoutability on both your parts for compliance. This might mean weekly meetings with a mediator to insure the plan is being followed. Make sure the plan is specific both for a) what you want to happen "The girls must be allowed to talk to their mother on the phone every day" and b) what the consequences are if the plan is not followed "If the girls cannot talk to their mother every day, the visitation schedule will be changed so that father had once weekly supervised visitation".

Make sure your suggestions are sound. For example, it's reasonable to believe that a 5 yo and 2 yo cannot go a day without speaking to their mom.

Hope that helps. I wouldn't count on him losing interest. I think that is something attorneys say to get us to shut up. You need both a short term plan and a long term plan OR some scheduled meeting to revise the short term plan based on what you learn over time.

Hang in there.

[tausborn]

ktmama,

What you have said makes a lot of sense. It has always bothered me that my lawyer doesn't do anything.

As far as a parenting plan goes, all I have is the standard custody order... and my lawyer never mentions that I EVEN could write out a parenting plan that included this kind of detail.

How would I go about getting a mediator?

What level of detail do I document? Every time I call and don't get an answer? Every little attempt to communicate?

Oh, yeah... last Friday my lawyer received a letter from his lawyer accusing me of harassing stbx at work, at home, harassing the girl's daycare, and calling his house 5x a day... none of which is true... it is just one of numerous letters we keep getting full of accusations that are half stories, exaggerations, and sometimes outright lies, and even easily disproved.

My lawyer answered it very well... but overall, she does not do enough. I guess I need to set her down tell her that her approach isn't working for me and the girls and hopefully, she will understand and wake up.

Thank you,
Teresa