Keeping Your Own Anger in Check pt. 2 - Page 6

[mmgarda]

Excellent!!!

APMom - I LOVED your post. You totally captured exactly what I feel about parenting. I think I just need to be really careful and examine my own motives to ensure that I am posing logical consequences and not arbitrary ones that cause my DS to feel manipulated. We have a similar "safety zone" policy, too. "DS, where are we??" "In a parking lot." "Right, what's the rule about parking lots?" DS sticks up his hand to be held. I love it!!

Grease - I knew you were just using TV as an example. Sorry if I created confusion. And I figured you had told your DS how you felt and had explored how he feels, but it helps to know more precisely what your situation is. I'm hoping the chair time-out works for you. I can't imagine how frustrated you must be feeling right now. I'm sending you good, good, good vibrations!!

Evan&Anna - YES!! Kids have to be allowed to fail! When I was trying to teach DS about stairs (we lived in a 3rd story walk-up at the time with concrete stairs - ouch!!), I took him to a bookstore with a carpeted stair area in the kids section. I knew that if he tumbled there, he was much less likely to hurt himself. As predicted, he did fall and cried. I was rather blase about it, choosing not to amp him up, but giving him all the love and attention he needed. Another woman who witnessed his fall freaked out though, and was practically screaming about the baby who fell down. Guess what? 5 min later (after some comfort nursing), he was right back up the stairs and he NEVER fell down the stairs again!!

[aussiemum]

Wow, lots of things to think about here....

First off, APmom98, I reckon you should feel free to post whatever it is you need to post. It helps just to get things off your chest sometimes. Anybody gives you any trouble 'bout getting kicked off MDC & you tell 'em to come & talk to me, okay?? (that's my tough guy voice)

I don't really know much about the difference between coercion v. consequences, but i think i prolly use more coercion, TBH. Working on that one..... However, it seems to me that a nap for a littlie is a reasonable thing before swimming in the afternoon. And I think even a young child would understand that nap comes before play at someone else's house. I liked this phrasing better,

"If you don't nap, you will be tired and cranky later and I can't take you to Veronica's house when you're tired and cranky,"

, mmgarda, tho sometimes it is so hard to remember to phrase things in a way that the kids will understand, esp. if you yourself are tired/ cranky/ premenstral, etc. This is the way that I aim to phrase my consequences 'punishments' (sorry can't think of a better word, YGKWIM)..... it's an ideal.... *sigh*

dotcommama, hmmmm.... with some of the scenes you've described with your 4 yr old (the drink in car one sticks out in my mind)........ you're a champ, my dear. Just reading about your little fella's hi-jinks made my blood pressure spike. . I think you're doing hte right thing, TBH. I'm cool with the not being able to choose the video at the library if he can't behave thing.... Have used consequences like this myself sometimes. It really seems to work if I can keep calm & not yell & just state my case 'this is the consequence, nothing will change my mind, if you choose to continue to scream at me we will leave.' And back it up & walk right out the door if DD (why is it always DD??? ) doesn't chillout. On the positive side, she screamed at me last night for something (can't remember, who knows what it was), I looked right at here & said calmly, 'you go stratight to your room for yelling at me, & you can come out when you're ready to apologise'. I've been tightening up on this one. And you know what? She's stopped screaming all the way to her room, she didn't hurl verbal abuse at the top of her lungs at me from her room, no tantrums, & within a few minutes she came out & apologised ...... nicely.....


Usually I get the 'sorry mum' over her shoulder, with a sneer & a flip of the hair. Hello? Is this child almost 6? Or almost 16??? And I don't accept nasty apologies, so we repeat the 'to your room' process......

Stacymom, some thoughts about yelling. I personally think that a lot of the reason why some mums yell is becasue we are under an incredible amount of stress to 'do everything'. this seems to be particularly difficult if you are working part or full time as well. Think about it. What sort of responsibilities do we carry? I know at my house i am in charge of cleaning, half the shopping, half or more of the cooking, I make sure the animals get fed everyday, the laundry gets done, the holidays get organised, the bills get paid, homework gets completed, shirts/bills/excursions at the school get sorted, I volunteer when I can at the school/kindy, I sort out the details of the house renovations, I keep contact with family friends...... someone wrote a book about this type of work, called 'Wife-work', can't remember the author. And then we have societal pressure on us to get out there in the 'workforce' & contribute to society, to utilise the gains that our feminist fore-sisters have fought for. : As if being at home & managing all that isn't enough. So many women (me included) feel that if they don't stay on top of their field, then the opportunities for work later in life won't be there.... there are so many young folks coming out of Uni these days, who don't have kids & commitments & it's so much easier just to hire them.... Add a long-haired rambunctious dog (got one of those too) to the mix, (on top of doing a PhD full-time, in my particular case), or a husband/partner overseas in a war, or one who's not helpful/not around a lot of the time, or a pregnancy/new baby............ Jesus!! What a recipe for disaster......... No wonder we lose it sometimes, KWIM???

another novella from me..... hugs to you all......

[TeaBag]

Okay, finally got all the kids in bed.....I shamelessly used ds' playdate to help tonight! :LOL We usually do the clean up game before the kids go to bed. We set the timer for 15 minutes and race, race, race to see if we can get everything cleaned up in less than that! Well, tonight, we did it with his playdate over, and they got the playroom cleaned up in something like 3 minutes, so I sent them upstairs to ds' room to do that too!! LOL! But I got to vacuum both the playroom *and* the upstairs, something that very rarely happens all in the same day!

So I've been thinking about this *expectations* thing. I know you all are familiar with Jan Hunt, right? Whether you agree with everything she says or not, (I always wondered if it would be that easy if you only had one child, but the fact is that I have three children, all have needs, all have wants, and no one can come first all the time!) she has some really great information on her site. Well, when ds was a toddler, I spent a LOT of time reading. First kid, I had more time....and well, he was/is sooooo spirited, I didn't know how to handle it. He just refused to fit into any mold that ANYONE talked about. From the moment he was born, he just was opposite of everything that anyone said. For a very long time, I thought it was my fault. I got told it was because I held him too much. I nursed him too often. I moved when he fussed instead of letting him "figure it out on his own!" The point is, I printed out a copy of "The Declaration of Complete Confidence in Children" I still, to this day, have it on my refrigerator (and we've moved three times since then!) There are two statements that have always made me stop when I get frustrated and angry.

Adult like behavior matures by the time we're adults.

Celebrate your child's uniqueness.................as well as your own.

The first statement is so true, except that we often forget it. I found myself saying to dd the other day "What's the matter with you? Why are you acting like a two year old?!?!?!" in complete frustration..........What the is MY problem? She isn't even two!!! Of course she's acting like that....that is exactly how she's *supposed* to act! But in frustration and anger, I lashed out.........

But the other phrase........we sometimes forget to celebrate ourselves. Like Aussiemom said, we don't give ourselves enough credit for doing the jobs that we do. We overlook *our* unique qualities, the things that make us determined to do better for our children. We can always (well, mostly) look at our child/ren and find something that we love about them....They are screaming at you because you won't give them cookies for breakfast, well, at least they know what they want and are willing and able to vocalize it. THe other night, ds yelling at me that if I didn't let him out of his room, he was going to yell until my ears hurt? Well, at least he understands that his feelings are powerful. He knows that he can express himself without fear of punishment, like I had. Yeah, I was a *good* kid, after my father *taught* me to be. He was into humiliation along with corporal punishment. FOr example, when I *needed* a spanking, I was made to stand at the head of the dinner table with my pants around my ankles, waiting until the family finished dinner before he would spank me. And then I was made to wear skirts afterwards so that people could see the bruises and know "how bad I was." I was terrified to speak my mind. Of course, I was the spirited one, the one he couldn't break, and that just made him all the madder. And I don't mean this to be a blame my father type of thing, because I honestly have forgiven him for all that stuff. I mean, truly, he didn't know any better. That's how he was disciplined, that's how it was done, he really felt that it was harder on him than on us, and that he had to teach us....Now, obviously, I don't agree with him, since I refuse to raise a hand to my children, but I'm not angry with him anymore. But my point is this....what happened back then, it helped make me a better mother. I learned what NOT to do to my children. I learned that I *DO* want my kids to know their feelings and thoughts are important to me. So, that's what makes me unique. And for tonight, I'm celebrating that.

Come'on ladies...tell me what makes you unique. Let's celebrate our own uniqueness..............as well as our children's!!!!

[mmgarda]

Hijack!!!

Ok, I have a ton of stuff to post, and will tomorrow, but right now I need to get OFF the computer.

Before I go, though, I just wanted to tell you all my insanely great news.

DH and I BOTH got job offers for the jobs we wanted TODAY!!!!!!!! Ideally we want to get back to where DH can stay home again, and this is a HUGE first step. Goodbye poverty, hell-oooooo long commute!!

You guys are great, ya know that??

[aussiemum]

Apmom98, that's some pretty harsh punishment you recieved as a child. I know what you mean about forgiveness & moving on.... I didn't have the happiest upbringing, but most days I'm cool with it.... It is a challenge moving beyond the parenting I learned from growing up. It's what I fall back on (but not totally) when I'm losing the plot & don't know what to do..... I fall back on it less & less as the kids grow up, so that's a good thing.

I think DD is pretty good at expressing herself, at least some days. Here is hte text of a letter she wrote me the other day. "Der mummy, I've move to anuther hause. Love, .....". And no, she hasn't moved out yet- I guess she likes my cooking too much! I guess I should feel proud that she feels like she can tell me things........

What makes me unique? Hmmm... maybe we should start another thread for this...... okay, I'm going to do it. Hope everybody follows along to add their two bobs....

[FullCream]

Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent. I'm supposed to be an adult, but here I am tantrumming like a two year-old. What has happened to me? I'm a trained early childhood professional - I know all this stuff about consequences and I-messages and reflecting feelings and positive ways of phrasing stuff. Why do I feel so out-of-control with DD? She's a gorgeous kid. I look forward to collecting her from school each day. She's always pleased to see me. We chat on the way home. And almost the minute we step inside the door, we're butting heads. And there's precious little positive self-talk going on in my head...

School pick-up time.

Thankyou everyone for sharing - I often get to the point where I feel that everyone is doing this better than me. It's nice to get a reality check and realise that many people are struggling.

[arcenciel]

Wow, I didn't look for a few days because I was cracking up (not anger, just falling to pieces) and now there is so much here! Not so much positive but at least there's a place to go....

Dotcommama, it took my eldest quite a long time to adjust to #3 and while it was happening I thought it was never going to come right and then eventually it did. In fact, with one friend our motto is:"this too shall pass" because it all does. Apart from the anger thing unfortunately which just keeps changing shape. Anyway, I wanted to suggest a couple of other things, one is to have faith in ds that eventually he will be OK with the baby. Second, try ignoring him when he hurts the baby. Give all your attention to the baby - pick him up, cuddle him, "check he is alright", and then if necessary speak to ds but give him as little of your time as possible. Third, find some times where ds can be responsible for the baby, helping and doing things that are really worthwhile - helping you get him dressed - you said he is walking, right? so he can't carry him places but maybe there are times he could look after him? Also, I would say it might be a mistake to try and carry the baby too much as it might just make ds more jealous when he can't get close to you.

mmgarda, congratulations on the jobs! I hope things get better for you from here. Extra stress like financial worries makes it difficult to act "normal" with the kids and get on with things. I understand what you mean about consequences and coercion. I think the thing about coercion is that there are some things that we need to make our children do anyway - like holding hands to cross the road, but also taking nap when they really need to - they can't understand the consequences of these things so perhaps we need to "coerce" them into doing these things because WE understand the consequences. It's not the same as coercing them into doing something "that we want them to do" like cleaning up a mess or getting dressed in a hurry, etc.

I keep having to remind myself (and very often DH) that when I am "disiplining" my kids, yelling is really not going to solve the problem because yelling only handles this time which I already cannot change, but what I really care about is next time and the time after. Like if they wreck something playing ball in the living room, yes I am angry, but what I really want is for it not to happen again. I suppose the trouble is that when I am really mad, for a moment, what I really want is for them to feel bad. And that's the horrible part of it/me. And if I do yell of course I just feel bad afterwards - at the really bad time quite a long time afterwards. BUT what I was saying is that sometimes I manage to stop myself because it is more important that the behaviour is not repeated than to yell about this one time.

Another suggestion is pillow fights. The power of the pillow fight should not be underestimated! If you are really angry it is too late, but even when the children are angry or just if you feel tension building up - good on a rainy day when everyone is stuck inside. You can either hit each other with pillows - this is good because if you are careful you can use up an awful lot of energy without actually hurting your children! Or if you have the space you get as many pillows and soft toys as you can find (ones with hard noses, eyes or beanbag insides are no good) and you split into teams (e.g. children against you) and throw them at each other. Again it takes up a lot of energy without hurting each other.

Or sometimes with younger children just wrestling is good.

It is SO nice not to feel like I need counselling just for getting angry. Before I found this thread I was beginning to think that I was the only one and that the only way to stop it was with professional help.

thanks

[arcenciel]

Coercion v. consequences

I just realised what the difference is between these two. With coersion you are making them do something, regardless of what they feel about it, and regardless of our reasons - whether we are making them hold our hand to cross the road or making them wear a coat on a cold day, it is coercion if they don't want to do it and we give them no choice.

With consequences, there is a choice. We might try and make one of the choices look pretty unappealing because we want to teach them good behaviour - like if they hit other children they go to their room, etc. But they can still choose to hit. If they have to behave at the table to stay there, they can choose not to behave and we then ask them to leave, but there is a choice. It would be coercion if we start yelling and screaming and using our physical/mental power over them to "make them stay at the table and behave".

[Brisen]

I just wanted to second the pp's endorsement of Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. I posted about it somewhere at MDC recently, maybe even this thread, but it's so great, I wanted to say it again!

I also wanted to add my two cents about coercion v. consequences. One of the things that Bailey points out in her book is that there are real choices and choices that just look like choices. So for instance, "play nice or go to your room," isn't a real choice -- it's saying "if you don't play nice, you will go to your room." I know the child still has the choice to play nicely or not, but there's a difference between that kind of choice and giving the child two positive things to do -- two good ways he can play, for instance. That's not to say you should limit him to the two good ways you think of, it's just if he's having a hard time figuring out or doesn't even know how to "play nice," or what playing nice would entail in this situation, it can be a big help for him to get some ideas. If he refuses to choose, or keeps on doing something inappropriate, then the consequence (which, I realize, is what the pp was talking about) is introduced -- choose a way to play nicely/safely/whatever, or you won't be able to play here. For me, this isn't just semantics -- I know that I have veiled consequences/punishments as choices, since I know how important choices are to kids, but I really wanted dk to do what *I* wanted him to do, if ykwim. Oh, and related to that, I've also realized that I'm using the word "cooperate" wrongly. I ask ds to cooperate when we're out or visiting or whatever, and say if he can't cooperate, then xyz (we go home, we won't have time for the next fun thing, whatever). But really, often *I'm* not cooperating with *him*, either. He's tired, he's hungry, he doesn't want to be there, and I'm just telling him what to do. Sometimes this is just the way it is, but I don't think it's fair of me to ask him to cooperate. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. I just realized I'm often asking him to "cooperate with me," when really what I mean is "this situation requires that you do what I say so we can xyz (get home in time to give the car to Dad for work, get the baby's diaper changed, whatever)." Maybe he doesn't care, I don't know, but I just realized how dishonest it feels for me to talk that way.

[dotcommama]

Wow so much to respond to here I'll probably forget half of what I wanted to say as I was reading, but oh well.

First mmgarda - great news about the jobs!

Well it's a new day and I'm ready to try again. I am determined to be kind and gentle both in voice and body with my children at all times no matter how they behave.

If I can't be calm and polite with them how on earth do I expect them to be that way with me? I'm 30, they're children! If I can't keep my cool and be kind when angry why do I think they can? Just my thoughts lately.

As for parenting differently from your parents. That's part of what frustrates me about my behavior. I have no excuse. My parents were awesome. Yes they spanked, but not in anger and very rarely. I wish I had half of my mother’s patience.

So I realize we’ve gotten marred down in the negative here, so I was thinking we could all re-post some of our original helpful hints or new hints we’ve been thinking of.

How to keep your anger in check:

Talk positive in your head. Remind yourself how much you love your child, even when they’re driving you mad

Whenever possible, use humor (careful not to use sarcasm). Laughing children are more likely to cooperate than grumpy ones.

Catch you child being good and praise, praise, praise.

When you feel like yelling take a deep breath and count to 10 before opening your mouth.

When you feel like yelling walk into your room, close the door and yell into a pillow, hit the pillow, bite the pillow – whatever works for you

When you feel like yelling remind yourself that yelling and getting angry about something only rewards your child because they have gotten attention from you (even negative attention is a reward for children). So by yelling you are making things worse, not better.

When you speak to your children smile at them.
Add more please!

[Suzannah]

Excellent posts, everyone...I can't decide if I am happy that so many other people experience such frustration with their DCs, or sad that so many people experience such frustration with their DCs...

Regarding a previous post about being consistent once you choose your "strategy," the answer is pretty much just put your head down and be consistent. This requires a ton of "self-talk," slow ten counts, time-outs for parents, and re-evaluation of your consequences (to make sure they are logical and not punitive).

We are pretty rigid about a few things in our house; hitting, calling names to hurt someone (as opposed to in jest, or playing, and DD knows the difference) and being mean (trying to intentionally hurt someone's feelings, and DD knows the difference). Sunday we had a lovely family day planned, with a long, slow-walking, DD-paced trip to the zoo. We had waited so that daddy could join us (he works Saturdays). DD decided she wanted to bring her stroller, but the answer was no b/c she doesn't fit in it anymore, she can't see the animals, and it's not safe (she's over 40 lbs, and her cute little body sort of spills out of it; she can't be strapped in, and has almost done a face-plant several times).

She threw the mother of all tantrums, threatened to hit both SO and I, and called names. Largely due to this thread and some serious reflection, SO and I didn't even yell ONCE. We stayed calm, explained about hitting. She kept trying. She called names. I laid down the law, "If you are not able to have afun day and act with respect towards SO and I an you, we won't be able to visit the zoo today. Please don't hit or call names. Do you understand?" She continued, zoo trip got cancelled, and about an hour later, she calmed down and we talked about it. She said, "Can we try again next week?" We talked about what had happened, she outlined her own behavior and talked about why she was upset, I validated all of her feelings ("It's really hard to be nice and calm when you're so angry, isn't it. What could you have done instead?"), and we made other fun plans for the day.

She had a great rest of the day with SO and I and has been a peach since. This is a BREAKTHROUGH; we finally laid down the law and acted, and she responded.

Gotta run; my class is here. Sorry for the ramble, but keep on keepin' on!!!

[Fianna]

Oh, so much to respond too!

Melina, congrats on the jobs! That must be such a huge relief.

APmom98, I fought back tears as I read the post about your childhood. I think it is remarkable that you have been able to let go of that anger...what an inspiration you are! And I think the celebrating ourselves idea is awesome. I actually started to do some of that this past weekend. My parents and siblings tell me all of the time what a great mom/person I am and I usually brush it off. The person I really need to hear it from...dh...will never say those things, but I decided this weekend that I do deserve some praise and I'm giving it to myself! It felt really good too! Guess it's a spin on the positive inner dialogue idea, right? The better I can feel about myself the better mom/person I'm going to be.

Dotcommama, great list! I just printed it out and will put it on the refrigerator when I go downstairs.

I love this whole consequences vs coercion thread. I know I've done both. I try to do consequences but sometimes I know it crosses the line. And that is one of the biggest issues I have with my dh's parenting. He does horrible coercion, saying things like, "OK, if you aren't going to ____, then I'm leaving and going back to work." My blood just boils every time he does that! Who in his right mind would ever use the thread of physically leaving to get a child to "cooperate" with them? And it's always for stupid things like he wants one of the girls to come talk to him or play with him right at that very minute.

OK, my house is a wreck, I have way too much work to do, I want to play with the girls, so I have to get off this computer! Hope you all have a yell-free day!

[Tanibani]

Originally Posted by FullCream

Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent. I'm supposed to be an adult, but here I am tantrumming like a two year-old. What has happened to me?

Been there!

Here is what I've been learning in my Parenting 101 Class based on BECKY'S BAILEY'S work:

WHat happens when people (children or adults) become angry???
2 things: 1) adrenal system kicks in = (adrenaline) fight or flight response
2) Brain downshifts into LIMBIC system - and you start giving unconscious responses.

When kids are in their limbic system (tantruming, out of control, screaming, yelling, you know what I mean) YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THEM. THe VERY first thing you need to help them to is calm them down. Otherwise they won't be responsive to "reason" or natural consequences, or anything.

(I discovered that trying to "teach him" anything during that moment (I don't put him in a Time Out) or reason with him is USELESS!!!! He's not open to it at all.... I'll wait till much later to discuss what happened and he's way more receptive, cooperative and understanding, "Ok, mommy.")

But frankly, the first thing YOU Need to to is get out of YOUR LIMBIC SYSTEM TOO. (This should answer "what happened to me?")

(Here is a silly little acronoym BB provides to help you do this

Take a deep breath. Repeat the following to yourself:
1) I am Safe (that's right you are... We get so angry/furious because we feel challenged and afraid of losing control (of our kids) or being talked back to, etc....)
2) I am Calm
3) I can help my child with their problem.

You need to Be a S.T.A.R.
S = Smile (this immediately changes hormone response in your brain)
T = Take (damn, can't read my notes)
A = Take A deep breath
R = Relax

It really helped me to observe the Director of my Preschool talk to my DS. She was always calm, respectful, in control. (Say my DS was getting upset because we had to leave or someone wasn't sharing the bug case.) Guess what my DS's response was... he began to calm down!!! She would distract him with a story about the bugs or whatever and she REALLY was great.

I found by following these tips (I hope I am articulating them well, if not, I'm sorry) really helped to make me feel better and understand the situation (there is more i don't have time to write now). Now, in the middle of the night, when DS wakes up hysterical, angry and unconsolable, I remain CALM AND CENTERED (and I feel SO MUCH BETTER as a result!!!!) I lost it yesterday (I'm not perfect) but it's getting much better.

Originally Posted by FullCream

Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent.

Yes and no. Yes - children need US to model behavior (calm responses) for them.

No... let's say you never reacted like that (I do - but it's VERY rare - and when I did I always felt like crap - hence the need for this thread, because everyone feels like crap after they've "lost it.") Your DD will still react that way. WHY? Because she's in her LIMBIC SYSTEM AND kids who do not have the vocabulary to describe what they are feeling, will act it out. Another way to say this - Can a child name an emotion? IF so then the child can MANAGE it! But we need to model this for kids!!! It is ESSENTIAL we remain calm.

Kurcinka showed a cool demonstration of mixing vinegar with baking soda???? and how it "bubbled over". She said that kids as young as 19 months will say "bubbling over" and that helps THEM to express how THEY are feeling (reaching out to parent for hugs - help calm me down).

Last night I heard Mary Sheedy Kurcinka give a great Teacher Talk and explain the following:

What happens during Fight or Flight response
- Breathe accerates
- Heart rate and pulse accelerate

Creates neurostatic - they can't problem solve with you. YOU NEED TO BRING THEM BACK DOWN (but you need to bring yourself down from YOUR Limbic response first!)

Becky Bailey's Principle # 8: Demands That We Be in Relationship with the Child
Part 1. Cooperation based-interaction. If we are in a relationship with a child, we are far more likey to gain their cooperation. We have a choice. We can either commit to working on our relationship with children and spend some private time with them daily, or we can be too tired, too busy and too distracted, and then be surprised when children do something inappropriate to get our attention. When we are in a positive, healthy relationship with others, we generally are cooperative, helpful and wiling.

Part 2. How do we get in a positive relationship wiht our children? Research shows we can reduce oppositional behavior by 50% if we simply play with a child for five minutes a day. (Board game, read a book, any one on one time, I LOVE YOU RITUALS - tips/ games from her book.)

GEM - Genuine Encounter Moments
- Listen without saying anything
- Get down on their level
- Give nonverbal love: touch on back, shoulder or hands
- Emotionally be there with them
- Mirror their expressions
- Avoid always making it a "teaching moment"

Principle # 3 Adults are accountable as role models (dang I can't find her book to quote now)

Principle # 4 Adults Must Maintain (self) Control

Principle # 5 Adults must see the world from the child's point of view. (There is a reason the kid is acting out... try to get out of your limbic response - after she wailed on you (ouch!) in reaction to something in her environment. Sit down and think about your day. What's going on in your house? How can you make it better?)

Part 1. "That kid is out to get me! The child that is "out to get you" is really going a step further. They are out to get you... to feel the way they are feeling.

Part 2. Two states of being
- Extending love (child feels rested, safe)
- Calling for love (child does not feel safe, or rested...)

Part 3. Does the Child want Information or Understanding?

Information ?
Calm
Direct
Rational
In Control
Curious
Interested

Understanding ?
Emotional
Whining
Irrational
Out of Control
Withdrawn
Overwhelmed

Yet how do we offer understanding? We don't. We get caught up in our own LIMBIC RESPONSE (just like them) and melt down along side them. It ain't working!!!!

We don't help them. We don't help ourselves. That is why it is essential for YOU to calm down first.

YELLING Here is when I lose it.... I used to really lose it in the middle of the night. He'd wake up hysterical, angry, incosolable for and stay that way for 20min -45-1 hour. I was sitting up with him, talking sweetly "honey what's wrong?" Finally, I'd lose it and yell back at him. The look of terror on his face made me want to DIE and immediately REGRET yelling (and realize it wasn't the right response)! I found that that feeling so much worse for me, than any "relief" found in yelling. I feel SO MUCH BETTER when I don't yell and remain calm, focused and centered in myself. I actually feel in control and stronger and just hold him (mommy help calm me down! - he asks to be held) during his meltdown.

Anyway, in the past few weeks, this hasn't been a problem anymore. I'd wait to the day when he was calm and happy to talk about it. I'd explain that the reason he was so upset (in pain) was that he was holding his pee inside and if he just let it out (instead of holding it in for 45 minutes causing his own pain) he'd feel MUCH better and relieved and could go back to sleep. "Ok mommy." And we agreed, "no more yelling in the middle of the night." "Honey, if you need me, just call for me in a normal voice and I WILL COME. "OK mommy." And now he does! And sometimes he wakes up "Did I yell during the night?" Nope... (praise, praise, praise....)

T Now I have another problem... I've created a monster... I started offering "bribes" to do stuff... "if you do this, then I will do that... Guess what, now HE's TELLING ME THAT!!!!

"Giancarlo, get out of the car now."
"No mommy, I'll get out if you do X for me first." UGH!!!! Ahhh, parenting is such a journey.

[dotcommama]

Tanibani what a great post!

Thanks.

[dotcommama]

Originally Posted by Tanibani

"Giancarlo, get out of the car now."
"No mommy, I'll get out if you do X for me first." UGH!!!! Ahhh, parenting is such a journey.

Oh I've had that problem before also. It's eye opening! "Mom I've been good, now can I have a cookie?" I try very hard now not to offer bribes, but I still do when I'm desperate.

[Greaseball]

I've actually had good luck with bribes. I used to give my dd a treat for getting in the carseat without a struggle and one day she just started getting in on her own and never asked for the treat again. We've been struggle-free for nearly 6 months now.

Sometimes when she falls she will ask for a piece of the chocolate rabbit we still haven't finished..."Cho-dee ra-dee? I fall down!" Because once I offered her some after a bad fall. It seems to help. I don't mind giving her some. And she doesn't fuss when I tell her no more, or that she only gets one bite.

[mmgarda]

So Much!

Wow - ok, I'll try to cover it all.

APMom - Wow. I'm glad you have become such a conscientous and loving parent. I grew up with an alcoholic who was horrendously verbally abusive. When I was 11 he told me, "No wonder you don't have any friends! You're such a b*tchy little c*nt, just like your mother!" THAT'LL scar ya! Anyway, power to us for finding another more positive way!!!

Arcenciel - We're on the same page about coercion vs. consequences. THe tough time I have is when the positive two choices (do you want to use the green soap or the orange soap today?) are being totally ignored or denied. Then I end up moving into coercion mode (you can wash your hands, or I can do it for you). Which brings me to . . .

Brisen -

If he refuses to choose, or keeps on doing something inappropriate, then the consequence (which, I realize, is what the pp was talking about) is introduced -- choose a way to play nicely/safely/whatever, or you won't be able to play here. For me, this isn't just semantics -- I know that I have veiled consequences/punishments as choices, since I know how important choices are to kids, but I really wanted dk to do what *I* wanted him to do, if ykwim.

So, how do you feel about that? Is that coercion? I think that it is, but I don't know if it's bad or not. That's the crux of my question about coercion vs. consequences.

Dotcom - I LOVE your list and am posting it on my fridge. THank you, thank you, thank you!!! I have what's-her-name's list of 20 alternatives to punishment on the fridge and usually glance at it every day. It's a great reminder for me!

Tani - Ok, I got the stuff about the limbic system and whatnot, but then I started getting a little confused about your other notes. My main problem, however, is that I can't figure out how to get my little guy to calm down. Like me, when he is frustrated and angry, he wants to be LEFT ALONE. If you try to talk to him, touch him, cuddle him, boy LOOK OUT! It really makes things worse. The problem is that he hasn't really figured out how to manage his own feelings yet, so he just winds up crying and crying and crying until I sort of force an intervention, which usually makes us both unhappy. What's a mama to do?? I like the STAR acronym and want to put it on my fridge. Can you try to figure out the missing part for us and repost - it's very helpful! Thanks!!

MY POSITIVE FOR THE DAY
Last night wasn't so great. Driving to pick DH up, DS was trying to tell me about a dog in the back of a truck next to us. He was having a hard time figuring out how to phrase it, so I said, "in the back of the truck" for him. Well, bad move, lady because he freaking LOST it! I realized why and said, "You sound very upset. Are you feeling frustrated because I said 'in the back of the truck' FOR you instead of letting you say it?" To which he replied, "Yeah!" I apologized and said I should have waited for him and that I'd be more patient in the future. No change. In fact, he kept crying and whining all the way home. I valiantly tried to be positive and upbeat, but wound up telling him that if he couldn't find his happy self, I would have to turn on the radio because I couldn't listen to the whining anymore (you know that totally fake crying thing some kids do? Nnnnnnnnnnn. Nnnnnnnnnnnn. Nnnnnnnnnnn. ) I am sad to report that I was inconsistent and went back and forth between my gentle, comforting Mama voice and my damn it all kid! Mama voice several times. I'm pleased to report that I didn't yell, though!

So, we got home and DH had to be somewhere very soon and I was trying to put a quick dinner together while DS continued to melt. When a friend I desperately needed to talk to for a minute called and DS couldn't be cajoled into sitting down and eating, I put the friend on hold. Here's what I said, "DS, I'm feeling very angry right now so Mama needs a time out. Your dinner is on the table if you would like to eat it. I am going on time out in my room and I will be back in a few minutes." I shut myself in and finished my conversation with my friend. When I went back into the kitchen, DS was sitting in his chair, but still crying (although, much more quietly!). I got down on his level and wiped his tears away and said, "DS, I'm sorry that I got angry with you. I was feeling very frustrated and that's why I put myself on time out. I'm feeling much better now and I would like to eat dinner with you. Would you like to have a special dinner with me in the living room?" Presto - magic night. The rest of the night went swimmingly. DS even ASKED to go to bed. (So clearly he was tired and that was the wellspring for all the frustration.)

Anyway, that's my success story for the day. Oh, and our morning went better than it has in a while. I praised and praised DS for it.

[dotcommama]

Originally Posted by mmgarda

So, how do you feel about that? Is that coercion? I think that it is, but I don't know if it's bad or not. That's the crux of my question about coercion vs. consequences.

I know there are hard-core gentle discipliners out there who are going to cringe at my answer, but. . . to me sometimes it is okay to coerce. I wouldn't say it's the best way – but sometimes the hands just need to get washed, the kid just needs to go to bed - kwim? I wouldn’t use it as a regular tool, but it’s in my tool belt for emergencies, along with bribes

I think sometimes we need to focus on our goal. Is out goal for the child’s hands to be washed so he can go eat dinner or do we want him to learn the importance of being cleanly for the rest of his life? You can coerce or bribe him into washing his hand and achieve the goal of clean hands for dinner, but I doubt it’s going to teach the child to be self-motivated about cleanliness in the future. Does that make sense?

[TeaBag]

Originally Posted by mmgarda

DH and I BOTH got job offers for the jobs we wanted TODAY!!!!!!!! Ideally we want to get back to where DH can stay home again, and this is a HUGE first step. Goodbye poverty, hell-oooooo long commute!!

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!

[TeaBag]

Originally Posted by dotcommama

but I doubt it’s going to teach the child to be self-motivated about cleanliness in the future. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, and the thing I keep reminding myself is that this is where consistency comes in. If having clean hands are a standard, every single night, before you come to the table, you go wash your hands and face, that when they are 18 months, 2 years, 2.5 years, it's a fight...not because they don't want clean hands, but because that's just the age they are at. But, with ds, who is now five, when I say "Please go wash up for dinner." it's not even an issue, because this is what we do, you know? So coersion or asking for cooperation or whatever you want to call it at the younger ages, it *does* set up the self discipline for things later. And as always, This too shall pass....

And my own good news! Got the news this morning that dh should be home in about 4 more weeks!!!! Only 4 weeks! I need to get cleaning