Keeping Your Own Anger in Check pt. 2 - Page 7

[Tanibani]

Originally Posted by mmgarda

Tani - Ok, I got the stuff about the limbic system and whatnot, but then I started getting a little confused about your other notes. My main problem, however, is that I can't figure out how to get my little guy to calm down. Like me, when he is frustrated and angry, he wants to be LEFT ALONE. If you try to talk to him, touch him, cuddle him, boy LOOK OUT! It really makes things worse. The problem is that he hasn't really figured out how to manage his own feelings yet, so he just winds up crying and crying and crying until I sort of force an intervention, which usually makes us both unhappy. What's a mama to do?? I like the STAR acronym and want to put it on my fridge. Can you try to figure out the missing part for us and repost - it's very helpful! Thanks!!

Wow - the first thing that popped into my head is that it sounds to me like you have an INTROVERT on your hands (my little guy is an extrovert.

Introverts get their energy from being ALONE. Extroverts get their energy from being around other people, needs cuddles to cope, etc...

Have you ever read Raising Your Spirited Child ??? She does a great job of explaining the differences and NEEDS of kids with these two temperaments. It's really eye-opening!

For example, last night she mentioned that a toddler who is an introvert whose space is invaded (vs. Extroverts who LOVE to have their space invaded with friends) may HIT YOU! to keep you away... because they NEED alone time/quiet time.

If a child is an introvert she probably
- Needs reflection time in order to figure out how she feels
- Prefers to watch or listen before joining an activity
- Becomes groucy if around people too long
- Has a strong sense of personal space. Doesn't like people sitting too close or touching.
- May talk with family mor than with outsiders.
- Finds visitors invading
- Seems to enjoy time out and will stay there till you tell her to come out.

If a child is an extrovert she probably...
- Need to talk in order to figure out how he feels - asks lots of questions.
- Wants to share thoughts and feelings immediately.
- Needs lots of feedback and immediate responses.
- Becomes energized by being in a group.
- Wants to figure out how things work by doing (They don't want to wait for instruction. They just want to start using their hands and thus, get in trouble. A tip I got last night is if you extroverted kid is driving you nuts "mommy, mommy, look at me..." give him something to do with his hands. My son loves playing with THomas!)
- Talks a lot and easily initiates conversation.
- Hates to be sent to time out.

I'm an extrovert. I have an extrovert son. You may be an introvert and it sounds like your DS is an introvert. Ask yourself what makes you feel good when you are upset.

I really don't know how to help you because I don't much experience with handling/living with introverts. Maybe just you being solid and strong (to begin with) would help. And non-intrusive. Let him have his space/crying... as long as you are nearby and reachable if he wants you. Or just verbally respecting his space may help dissipate tension "I know you are upset right now and are not comfortable with me being here. When you are ready I am here for you." You are honoring / acknowledging his need for space.

Kurcinka has a SPIRITED WORKBOOK with lots of examples (she said that last night). Haven't read it, but that may help you too - giving you real life examples and how to handle them.

Exercise: How does your type like to re-charge?
How does your type like to solve a problem?
a. Introverts need:
- Space
- A chance to watch or think first
- Quiet
- A break

b. Extroverts need:
- Opportunities to talk out loud in order to figure out what they are thinking and feeling.
- To try things before listening to long directions.
- Interaction and activity (if they don't get enough activity, extroverts will create it :LOL )

c. Essential Skills for extroverts
- Respecting the space of others - including verbal space
- Listening and taking turns (interruptions during dinner are a HUGE issue for us)
- Knowing that they work best when they can work with others or talk through things.
- Learning to say "I'm just thinking."
- Giving others time to think and chance to take a break.

d. Essential skills for introverts
- Letting others know they have "heard" them
- Asking politely for space, quiet or time to think.
- Involving others in key decisions
- Learning the importance of greetings and good byes.

If your DS "is shutting down" he needs:
- To be near, but without more stimuli
- Stop talking
- Space
- Dim lights
- Pausing

APMOM - Washing hands... well making it fun, turning it into a game would be a great way to get little ones to cooperate. You, singing a funny little sink song or something. I LOVE YOU RITUALS is all about that.

[mmgarda]

Thanks!

Ok, I think I'm feeling better about the coercion vs. consequences questions. Dotcom and APMom - you both put it perfectly. Yes, I'm trying to develop a life-long habit of cleanliness, but if dinner is ready and DS is melting down because he's hungry, then I just have to get those filthy little paws clean so he can eat!!

I just realized I"m cross posting w/ Tani and I haven't read that yet. Need some lunch, so I"ll be back!

Oh, and thanks APMom - I would LOVE some champagne. I'm working out the nitty gritty details, but all should be signed and sealed today! I can't believe your DH is coming home!!! You must be ECSTATIC!!!

[TeaBag]

Angry, angry, angry!!!

Two year olds! Ugh! She's been naked all day, she is potty training herself and so runs naked all the time at home. We HAVE to get out of this house. Ds is going crazy being inside, and so am I, to be honest. I have to get to the clinic to pick up a prescription before it closes today and she is completely totally refusing to get dressed!!! Kicking, screaming, the whole nine yards. I've tried making it a game. I've tried making it fun. I've tried telling her how much fun she'll have when we do get out of the house (it's almost 70 degrees today, the first time in FOREVER!) and she just doens't care. "I be nakey!" is all I hear from her. I can't seem to make any point, and I've tried just letting it be until she's ready, but the fact is, she isn't ever going to get ready adn it isn't fair to ds to make him wait and wait and wait and wait because she's being a toddler! I hate this. There are days when I just wish I could be one of those *other* parents and say "DO IT NOW!!" and they move....but I don't and they don't and I'm too tired to try to be creative right now. And now, because I started trying over an hour ago to get her ready to go and we're still not ready, infant is getting tired again and wanting another nap and I *still* havent' gotten out. I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this.

So small in the grand scheme of things, but UGH!!!!!

[Shonahsmom]

MMGarda,

CONGRATULATIONS!!! That's awesome!!

Everyone,

I just caught up on all of the posts since I last posted. I genuinely enjoy reading all of your words, your fustrations and suggestions. It really is incredibly helpful to be able to commiserate on this topic.

I do try to avoid coercion. I do a lot of choice offerring.

Example:

(nicely) You have two choices. You can take a nap and afterwards we can go swimming or you can choose to stay up and stay home playing quietly for the rest of the day.

There's no negatives in that statement and no threats or attempts to manipulate. I state it nicely and matter of factly; much in the same way that I might ask her if she wants an apple or grapes at lunch. If she then were to choose to stay up, I would let the issue go completely (read not be angry at her for refusing to nap) but stay firm on not allowing her to go swimming. And whenever she might bring it up, I would gently remind her of her decision.

My dd does pretty well for the most part with choices. Again, I put it up to her. She feels the power of decision making and she gets to feel the resluts of her choices.

Can anyone post links to some of these great things you have tacked up on your refridgerator?

Something that helps me out:

I saw this thing on Oprah, maybe 6 years ago. I know it was before I was a mom. I think it was the "Remembering your spirit" segment that she used to have. Anyway, it was a mother of teenagers that was feeling disconnected from her kids. So she needed to find a way to reconnect. She decided that any time her kids were to hug her, she would not let go until they did. She found that they would often hang on for minutes at a time. As a result her kids became more loving and more open and more connected. I know we are talking about little kids here and that we all offer up plenty of hugs and snuggles, but I've noticed that whenever we are having a tough time. if I get religious about this little method of not letting go before she does, we definitely reconnect. I don't know, maybe that comes completely natural to some of you, but it really helps me to do this.

Also, I am working out regularly in a gym which is helping me on many, many, many levels! I am taking a Yoga class there. At the end of the class, during Savasana (final relaxation) the teacher encourages us focus or meditate on something important, a goal, a stress to let go, etc.. I have been deeply focusing on peace in my heart and being the mother I want to be.

My dd and I have had a good weekend and start to this week. Lots of snuggling and cuddling and talking.

Hang in there angry mommas!

[mmgarda]

There's a line for the microwave, so. . .

I'll respond to Tani Bani now.

Re: Introverts vs. Extroverts.

Well, honestly, I have a huge problem with this classification. First, let me just tell you that I have a degree in Organizational Development, so I'm very familiar with various personality types and personality assessments and pretty well aware of my own needs. The reason I don't like the intro/extro dichotomy is that I find it to be way too simplistic.

In general, I'm an extrovert: Loud, talkative, vivacious, love people, rush around, etc. However, in many issues and spaces, I'm an introvert: need some peace and quiet to concentrate, prefer to read to recharge, can;t stand the mall because of all the poeple, want to be left alone when angry. If you know various scales, Myers-Briggs says I'm an extrovert, Big Five says I'm a mix and (shoot, can't think of the name - the other big one) says I'm an introvert. So I know from personal experience that there's a lot more to it!

Basically, I think that DS is just like me. When he is angry or frustrated, he feels very closed in and needs people to get out of his personal space. However, he isn't sophisticated enough yet to know how to turn internally for reflection or how to walk away from a problem so he can come back to it later. My heartache is that I know how he feels, but I don't have tools to help him since he doesn't WANT help at the moment. When he does hit the limit, I try to back off and give him space, but find that it doesn't really work. He tends to escalate and the only solution I've ever found is major distraction, namely, a show on TV. Since I find that when I'm really upset I CRAVE a book to lose myself in, I understand. However, even this isn't working for us lately, so I'm beginning to feel hopeless. My leaving the room completely last night did seem to be effective. Although he continued to cry the whole time I was gone. He was able to calm down and redirect when I returned.

As for "spirited," based on what others have said about their spirited kids, I wouldn't really describe him that way. He is actually a pretty calm and collected kid and his extremely high verbal skills make dealing with him much easier than most, I think. We have been working very hard on identifying his emotions and getting him to identify them as well. We often "get the angries out" by jumping and stomping and "grrrrr"-ing and we are encouraging him to tell other kids at daycare that he needs his space when he is feeling frustrated. It's working, but sloooooowly.

As for making a game out of hand-washing, well it doesn't really work for us. The truth is, he's too damn smart. He KNOWS the goal is to do something he doesn't want to do and he isn't going to be fooled by some silly song. We've gone through this with any number of things. Our whole tooth brushing routine involves songs, animals, play-acting, you name it. And he LOVES that stuff, but we still end up struggling with teeth a LOT.

I think that I am coming to terms with the idea that there are just going to be some things that won't be pleasant. I can feel good about the fact that I am trying to ensure my child's continued health and well-being, that I am being sensitive to his feelings about the process and that I am continuously seeking new ways to approach things. But I don't have to feel bad if those new ways don't necessarily work or don't make things easier.

[Shonahsmom]

APMom

I was writing my post while you posted yours.

Sorry you are having a rough day.

[mmgarda]

Oh man

APMom - DAMN! I am feeling for you! One quick suggestion. Is it possible to just put a large t-shirt on her (one that will cover her, but still let her feel naked) and just let it go at that, or is her potty training still inconsistent enough that she needs to be diapered/fully clothed?

If you can't get out of the house today because the timing just isn't working in your favor, is there any way you can give yourself and DS some other kind of "treat" to sort of make up for it?

Sending you good thoughts, hon!

[Stacymom]

I am loving this thread!

I have to tell all you ladies though, that today, when things were getting extremely frustrating around lunchtime/naptime today, and the positive self talk was running through my head, one of the thoughts came "If I yell at dd, I'm going to have to go on the thread and say that I yelled and I'll feel guilty about ti for the rest of the day..." So even being aware of things is helping! (And I didn't yell! )

Two year olds! Ugh!

Okay, I can so relate to this. Sometimes I just want her to be reasonable, until I realize that she's only two and a half and isn't totally capable of being reasonable. I sometimes feel like half my day is amde up of things like changing her diapers, persuading her to get shoes on, putting sunscreen on, etc.

DD: Go outside?
Me: Okay, let's get your shoes on.
DD:No shoes!
Me: If you want to go outside, then you have to put your shoes on.
DD: Okay. Shoes on.

We get the shoes and start putting them on. Int he midst of all this, dd starts kicking and screaming "No shoes!" Huh? Did I miss something? :

And then of course, we spend up to half an hour getting ready to go outside, and then only spend ten minutes before she wants to come back in.

Well, I need to head outside, but I'll check back later....

[arcenciel]

Wow, what a load of wonderful stuff. And just after I had a bad day - I didn't actually lose it, but I kept yelling about little stuff and was really not the mom I would like to be.

Tanibani, thanks for all the ideas. I love the "I am safe", I think that could help me And I will re-read and try to remember other stuff too.

Dotcommama, thanks for the list and the reminder about focusing on the goal.

Mmgarda, my ds2 sounds a bit like yours. He also cries unconsolably but often needs help getting out of it, if I can get close enough. I find the best thing is to be out in public and then when a stranger comes up and tries to be nice to him he is much happier to be with me ! I read a book in French that is not available in English (Isabelle Filliozat, excellent ideas) and she said that you should just stay "available" which probably in this case means close without touching, but you know what is ok and what is not, to let him know you are there for him. I think also as they get older, they need longer before we intervene, to calm down "enough". I have to admit, now that I think about it that I really have very little patience for him when he starts like that. He is really "in your face" about his negative emotions and there is only a very small amount of whining or going on about stuff that I can stand. Only so many times I can say, "I see you're really upset/sad/... about ...."

APMom98, you seem like a really patient person! I am really impressed how long you have lasted with the naked scenario! I would have given in and yelled a long time before. Or laid down the law....

Shonahsmom, thanks for the hug idea. And the reminder on choices.

I feel all geared up to make tomorrow a more positive day.

[TeaBag]

Well, I resorted to coersion. I sent ds outside to play in the backyard with the doors open.....she saw him out.....she wanted to play outside too....I reminded her she had to get dressed......she agreed....I gave her a choice of diaper or panties....she chose panties....and it's been about 1.5 hours and no accidents!!! WOW! Was she working on this? Probably. We're back from our walk to the clinic and now we're headed to the park! Sometimes, they just surprise you to no end!! We're doing a happy dance now!

[FullCream]

Yep! I go into full fight or flight mode when I feel out of control (not just out of control of DD's behaviour, but out of control in general). I'm sure I'd really benefit from Yoga or something similar, but I still don't feel comfortable leaving DS with anyone except DH, and he's gone a lot at the moment.

When I don't yell, I lecture ad nauseum. I say the same thing (in slightly different ways) over and over and over. It drives DH nuts and DD too. I'll know that I'm doing it, but just can't seem to stop. I feel like I have to keep going until I get some kind of acknowledgment that I'm understood and my feelings are recognised. The problem is, the more that I go on and on, the less DD and DH really HEAR me. Sometimes I think the lecturing is worse than the yelling. Sigh.

I used to be so patient with DD, but now I often feel completely exasperated - why do I have to tell her to do things that she KNOWS have to be done (and has been doing for YEARS in many cases)? She's craving attention - we've always been so close, and now there's a baby always around (and she absolutely adores him and is completely trustworthy and helpful with him). But I can't go and help with reading at school (I used to go two or three mornings a week), and I often can't read to her before bed because I'm trying to get DS to sleep. And of course, it's all harder when DH is away. I don't know how some of you military momma's cope for months at a time! I'm at Day 7 with three days left until he returns and I'm stretched SO thin.

Hugs to everyone. thank you for sharing your experiences and ideas.

[monkaha]

Originally Posted by Shonahsmom

MMGarda,

(nicely) You have two choices. You can take a nap and afterwards we can go swimming or you can choose to stay up and stay home playing quietly for the rest of the day.

There's no negatives in that statement and no threats or attempts to manipulate. I state it nicely and matter of factly; much in the same way that I might ask her if she wants an apple or grapes at lunch. If she then were to choose to stay up, I would let the issue go completely (read not be angry at her for refusing to nap) but stay firm on not allowing her to go swimming. And whenever she might bring it up, I would gently remind her of her decision.

I have a question with this. I have been trying this with DD(almost 3). For example, today she didn't want to nap, so I let her choose to go to bed early, before me, instead. When I reminded her of this at bedtime, she had a meltdown. And ended up falling asleep next to me on the couch. Do y'all think that she's too young to be given choices, or is this just a learning curve for both of us. I know that I need to be firmer and more consistent. Or do I? Where do you draw the line between consistent and being flexible?

How come no one warned me about this part of having kids? LOL. It was all so easy up till now.....

I like the idea of hugging kids till THEY let go. And I know I need to find some me time somewhere. I've been out twice by myself now in the 6 1/2 wks since DS was born, and one of those was to the dr.

Thanks to everyone for clearing up the coercion vs. concequences thing- I really didn't understand the difference. I need to copy down all the books you guys keep mentioning and head to the library. Which ones should I start with?

[TeaBag]

Failure.............

I totally and completely lost it, I mean, I screamed at 8.5 month old dd. I screamed at toddler, I screamed at ds.......................

Last night was a bad night, sleep-wise. Infant got up about 11:30 and had trouble settling back down. Then toddler got up about 12:15 and was up until about 2am. Ds was supposed to have a zoo trip with preschool today, and we were supposed to be there at 10am. I had my alarm set for 6. I got up, it was raining, I went back to bed. Toddler got up at 6:30, woke up infant. Dh called, and then cut me short in mid-sentence (I know when he has to go, he has to go, but I was trying to tell him something important...) I started my period yesterday afternoon....how in the hell *that's* fair, I don't know!!! I put infant down for a nap. I get toddler and ds set up with snacks and drinks so I can work out. Toddler keeps getting underfoot. Ds complains that what I got him, he doesn't want. I'm just getting a good sweat going and infant wakes up. I'm getting more and more pissed. I get her, set her up with some toys down here, and get back to my workout. Toddler screams that she has to go potty. We go running. I find the bathroom in a total wreck, ds had been making his superman toy float and the sink overflowed all over the floor and infant is screaming because I walked out of the room and toddler is crying because she has to use the potty and I just lost it.

I told infant to *JUST STOP CRYING!*. I told ds that if he made a mess like this again, he would spend the day in his room. I told toddler to *Just hold it for a damn minute!!!* And then I said "I guess Mommy just isn't allowed to BREATHE today, right???? "

And here's the worst part. Ds starts telling me something about superman and I told him to just "shut up and let me get things straightened out!"

He then says "well, you know, Superman can breathe because he doesn't have any kids."

: go ahead, flame away....I failed them all this morning....

[monkaha]

Apmom- Sorry you're having such a crappy morning. Don't beat yourself up too much-you're only human. Your kids will turn out ok, even if you blow up at them once in a while. Hope the rest of your day turns out better!

[arcenciel]

It's true, APmom, you're only human and the whole point of this thread is that we all do it sometimes. I really sympathise with you on that one because sometimes when I get really wound up I yell at our 7 month baby to "shut up". I know it's completely ridiculous and I HATE it when DH does it, but sometimes I just can't think while she's crying and if I can't stop what I'm doing to handle her I get stressed out doing the other thing without really concentrating....

I guess maybe the thing would have been to accept sooner that you weren't going to get to work out and just to give up and improvise something else.

I haven't "lost it" for ages, but reading this thread each day just makes me more conscious of the fact I have been a grouchy mom for ages, I find myself several times each day just shouting orders because I'm just tired all the time. But I don't want that to be how I am with the kids. People keep asking me if I have any help and I guess I don't really but I don't feel like I mind either. I just accept that the house is a mess and that life is disorganised. I'm ok with most of that, except the grouchy mom part.

Oh well. Food for me to think about. Hope your day gets better APmom.

[Greaseball]

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and try something new...I'm going to go out IN PUBLIC with dd! I'm one of those housebound moms who hasn't taken their kid to the store in over a year because I don't know how to deal with her behavior. We almost never go anywhere together unless dh is there too. But today she was asking for a butterfly, so I figured we could go to stores that sell Beanie Babies and see if there are any butterflies.

I'm a little apprehensive, but we'll see how it goes!

[mmgarda]

So much to say!

First - APMom - I'm so sorry, but your post really made me laugh. Not in a mean way, it's just, I can totally picture you in a water filled bathroom with screaming kids and no sleep and, well, it's a total "Calgon take me away!" moment, isn't it? I guess the only thing I can say is that I can't believe you didn't lose it at 2 AM!!! Honestly, I am totally impressed that you managed as long as you did. Seriously. Kudos to you for hanging on that long. YOu know, although we're all trying to retrain ourselves, I think we have to let ourselves lose it once in a while, you know? There's only so much of you to go around. One more month. One more month. One more month. One more month. . . Oh, and I don't think your using going outside to get your DD to put clothes on was coercion. Seemed like a good compromise to me!

Arcen -

I have to admit, now that I think about it that I really have very little patience for him when he starts like that. He is really "in your face" about his negative emotions and there is only a very small amount of whining or going on about stuff that I can stand. Only so many times I can say, "I see you're really upset/sad/... about ...."

I KNOWWWWW!!! [wail] For me, I really have to leave. I either tell him I'll be in another room and he can come get me when he's ready, or, lately, I give myself a time out and either do something I really WANT to do (like read a book or talk to a friend) or I engage in as much positive internal dialogue as possible. Oh, and I count. To like a billion.

Monkaha - NO, I don't think 3 is too young for choices. I think you have to figure out what works for you. For example, I find that the fewer choices DS has, the less in control he seems to feel and the worse it gets. That seems contrary to many previous posts here. (Interesting, isn't it, Grease?)

and Grease - Ohhh! I hope you have a good time going out! I actually find that if I have a day where it's just me and DS, things go so much more smoothly if we DO have outings. I usually plan several things from morning to lunch to get us to the nap point. DS loves to go out. "I wanna run ewwands!!"

Keep up the good work mamas!!!

[Greaseball]

Well, it went OK...we went to one toy store which didn't have butterflies, and dd was ok with being pulled away from the tub of teddy bears to go somewhere else. Then she saw this dog statue and wanted to climb on it and pet it for awhile, and didn't want to leave, but eventually I got her to.

Then in the other toy store she spent a lot of time with one of those Thomas the Train sets, and I thought I'd never get her away from there without a scene. I told her every so often "We're going to go soon" and she'd say no every time, but after the third time she was ok with leaving. Then we got a snack, and left for home. She didn't throw a fit at all until we got in the car to leave, which is fine with me because I can just turn up the radio. She usually stops when she knows she can't be the loudest.

So it worked out all right! Maybe tomorrow we will try going to other places.

[dotcommama]

That's great Greaseball - I'm sure the more you take her out the more she'll learn how you expect her to behave and soon the two of you will be out and about often.

[mmgarda]

Yay!

Grease - that sounds like a good time to me!

Here's a typical daily round if I'm doing the home thing (y'all know I'm not a SAHM, right?).

Drop DH off at work
Get mama some coffee (perferably somewhere with not too many breakable doodads!)
Go to the park
Go to the library (snack at park or library)
Go shopping (grocery, hardware, browsing, etc.)
Lunch
Home for nap

Then I get a nice hour or so to relax or clean or whatever. By the time DS is up, snacked and ready to get moving again, it's often 3:30 or so and we just go out into the yard.