Christian Skeptics & Ex-Christians

[Rainbow]

I thought since a discussion in spirituality was sort of going towards our own life experiences and how our skepticism was affecting or shaping our lives we could use a thread in here.

Anyone game? Anyone else out there letting go of Christianity, or at least looking at it with a critical eye?

Where are you on the spiritual journey,and how has it affected your life so far?

As for me, I have been part of a very dogmatic group of Christians. Admittedly some mainstream Christians might not consider Christian. It is, however, a group that believes in and follows Christ so I think it is fair to call it Christian. I have never felt a close relationship to the God of the bible, but blamed it on personal fault and sin. Something must be wrong with me, right? I first pulled out emotionally, because of the social issues within religion- thinking that I was doomed for choosing present comfort over biblical demands/logic. Somewhere along the way I started reading and educating myself. It was as if an elephant was being removed from my back. I'm not kidding! :LOL Now I am trying to come to terms with what I feel, trying to seperate what makes sense logically, what I would like to believe, and what I believe only because of tradition or indoctrinization.

I'll share more later, but it is 6 AM on sunday and I can't think straight Look forward to hearing from others.

[lab]

Hi Rainbow and everyone!

What a great idea!

Rainbow - I'm going to respond to some of your questions from the other thread.....

I wanted to challenge everyone and everything as well. But you are right, Christians don't take very kindly to dialogue regarding their faith. (In general - I know not all Christians don't like to discuss).

I also don't speak my mind. Now if someone specifically asks me a question or attacks me (which does happen) then I respond. But for the most part I am very new to this and not many people know my struggles....

More and more I am also coming to believe that Jesus did not exist. My husband is freaking out!

The Jesus Mysteries was great! I loved it! I do wish however, that I had read more about the start of Christianity before jumping into reading that Jesus never even existed. It was really a blow for me.

At this point, I like to compare myself to a building being torn down. Right now I am at the foundation and am building back up. And I can build it any way I want!

You know what I compare the Bible to sometimes? A fairy tale. Now don't anybody freak out! Think about it. William Shakespeare didn't come up with Romeo and Juliet. That story is as old as time. He wrote it down. Same thing with Hans Christian Anderson. He didn't make up those stories. A version of those stories exists in every culture. He simply wrote his version. Same thing with the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Jewish and Christian faith is not the only religion in history to have the flood story. And that is just one example.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. I love this idea. I love learning. I love reading.

It does get scary and lonely. I'm glad for you Rainbow that you have your husband. That is great!

Thanks for starting this thread!

Lisa

[Pynki]

I am dis-enfranchised with the christianity of my youth.. I WANT my kids to have some kind of life with God.. I feel.........lost.. My family IS freaking out a bit.. I feel soo blaise about religion right now.. We haven't been to ur church in over a yr.. (does that even make it our church any more??) And I REFUSE to go to my IL's church again..

My deal is.. How do I know that what I believe- or was taught to believe- is right.. Who says the people who chose what went into the KJV bible- or whatever bible I use got all they were supposed to.. Early chiristians wouldn't even recongize whatt is considered christianity today, and they were closer to when Jesus was here.. (although not everyone agrees he was.. I can't let go of that one.. )

The bigortry in chrisitianity is so ... so.. overwhelming to me.. I don't understand.. I don't understand soo much.. My parents are fundie, and charismatic christians.. I believe basically the same things, but I don't agree with them most of the time.. Perhaps it is generational, but I don't think so.. I don't believe the things they believe..

I feel adrift in a sea.. The only thing I know is there is a God.. The rest of that is.. unclear.. Unknown.. Unknowable I guess.. I need to find something that fits me, but I can't.. There's nothing that works for me.. I don't believe gay people are going to hell.. Why did God make them that way.. (and i believe he did) if they weren't perfectly the way he wanted them to be.. Just gobs of stuff doesn't fit for me.. I can not blindly follow some dogma that doesn't even make sense to me.. I don't understand.. I don't understand I don't understand... And I don't think I ever will..

Thanks fo rthe thread.. Does anyone else feel this way.. I feel more isolated spiritually than just about anything else..

Warm Squishy Feelings.

Dyan :

[Rainbow]

lab- my husband's first response was anger... and guilt trips. Telling me Iw as doing our kids a disservice by taking truth away from them. He pretty much begged me to talk to the elders from the church about it all. He was so certain I'd be ok if they "fixed" everything- but they weren't able to clarify anything. I let my DH know how I feel, but I also let him know i was by his side. I've been really patient and only recently has been opening up his own feelings to me. This is a huge blow to any mate, to find their partner no longer believes in the very core of mankinds existance. I made it clear I wasn't going to let it get between us and I learned to express my feelings as "possibilities" rather than fact. He was more able to listen and contemplate when I spoke this way.

And I don't think it is crazy to compare it to a fairy tale! The very first doubtful thoughts I had were along the lines of "sometimes it just seems like a great big giant myth."

Sometimes I think Jesus, of some sort existed... but look how many people come in our day and claim to be Messiah or have a special relationship with god. Perhaps there was someone who once lived, but I don't think he drew the great crowds and such that the bible described- none of the scribes of the day recorded anything about Jesus that I have been able to find. And if he was as much of a spectacle as the bible describes I think it would have been recorded by the scribes. I think, maybe, the myth evolved into what was recorded in the bible. I could be wrong. I don't know. Either way, I don't feel there is a firm foundation for a belief in the bible. I really think any all knowing God would have been able to give us a better handbook though.


Pynki- I'm soryr to hear you feel so lost. I know I was feeling sort of lost before I started reading secular material on both sides of the issue. I still feel lost, but maybe less so? I am personally still sorting out if there is a God or not, but if there is I can't believe it comes from an organized religion (thus my signature) which at this point is what I intend to teach my kids. Tell them many beliefs and understandings and ask them which one resonates with them- allow them to search their light. I admit I'm a little scared though... I mean what when they ask about death? How can I answer if it is something I do not know or understand?

And I agree that Christianity has evolved so deeply. I often feel to much emphasis/importance is put on paul's words which were directed to specific congregations- in words appropriate for the time they lived. Instead of the words recorded in the gospels which are truly timeless.

It is so hard to feel that lost empty feeling when it comes to god and spirituality. I think for me I'm finding I have to sort this out on my own before pursuing religion, but everyone is different. When I was lost with my religion, but still stuck on the bible I was drawn to quakerism. In the very least, I've loved learning about other versions of christianity available than the mainstream choices.

[wendygrace]

I have only a second but am subscribing to this and just stating that I'm a "recovering Catholic" and just don't know what I believe anymore.

[DaryLLL]

I'm here, but now I gotta go watch Survivor! See ya! Daryl

[lab]

Hi everyone!

You know what I did when I first began to doubt? I started reading everything I could......

I'm reading a book now called Who wrote the Bible. I'm just a few pages in but so far so good.

My whole thing is answers. I want to know why! I remember asking the same thing you mentioned Pynki - who decided what books I should read in the BIBLE? My mom said that they were divinely inspired and I should just accept that that is what God wants me to know. !!!! I was around 14 or 15. I feel so lied to my whole life.....

Anyway, I started a thread months ago and everyone was so generous with their ideas on getting through it. I'll try to find it since it had some great ideas on books to read......

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...esus+mysteries

Good Luck!

[Rainbow]

Thanks for the link!

I studied and studied to. First I dissected the doctrines of my specific religion. I studied and then started to see that my religion had the bible wrong, so I started to investigate mainstream Christianity. I've always been anti-war and anti-hellfire so I just couldn't wrap my mind around it.
I can't remember what sparked my interest in questioning the bible. I think it was based on hellfire. I just don't get it. Then I was reading the bible, I typically skipped over genesis because we all know it right? For some reason I didn't- and I noticed the two creation stories. I got online and type "skeptic genesis" and got all kinds of hits that lead me to more and more contradictions and issues. skepticsannotatedbible.com is just awesome.

Now I'm still unsure what I know or what I believe. I do not see my getting involved in religion again. I think I'm agnostic at the moment. There might be a God, there might not. I don't think it can be proven either way.

So has anyone had to "come out" to their family about leaving their faith? How have you handled it? With our religion we risk being shunned by DH's family They disfellowship/excommunicate for disagreeing with their doctrines.

[TiredX2]

Nothing to say, but I definatley belong *here*

[Rainbow]

:
Where are you in the journey, mama?

[Boadicea]

NAK, but I just wanted to jump in here, as this is exactly where I am on my journey, as well. If I told my evangelical, pentecostal, right wing mother what I really think/feel/believe, she'd probably try to have me exorcised! :LOL

For you former christians, do you ever have that sudden panic feeling that you've screwed up, that you're completely wrong and that you won't know until it's too late (i.e. when you're being condemned to the fires of hell)? I tell myself that it's just because I've been so indoctrinated in the christian belief system, I still have some free floating guilt/fear hidden in there. But the idea that I may be dooming my children is pretty scary ... keeps me awake wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

Anyway, I'll write more later. So good to see some discussion on this issue from others with the same issues.

[Pam_and_Abigail]

I want to come back and read the rest of this, but since the changes, I haven't figured out how to subscribe without replying.
When I return I can share my journey away from Jesus, toward the Goddess.

[Arduinna]

I'm an ex Christian that is a polytheist.

I really don't think I ever "got it". It just never made any sense to me. And as someone that is totally outraged at the violence and suffering and bigotry that has been wrought on this world due to monotheism I don't think I ever really wanted to get it anyway. But the first things that lost me was the virgin birth, resurrection and the trinity. Plus I've never believed that a baby could be born sinful and needed to be saved by baptism. I don't know, I could go on and on.

I do remember when I realized that Christianity wasn't the only religion out there. I was raised pretty darn sheltered from religious diversity. I'm still amazed at the indoctrinization of Christianity into American (western?) culture. Little things like sin are second nature in conversation. It is really hard to excorsize those things from your world view. I've had to question almost everything I think, say ect. And I know it still isn't gone yet.

It's little things like the hail mary being substituted as "forgive me MDC for I have sinned". I've made a consience choice to not perpetuate the Christian world view in my mind and world since it's not something that I believe in.

And yes, I did get the " oh you got ill because you forsake jesus ect". My thoughts on that are, how sad it is that people have been ruled by the fear of eternal damnation that they have given up their free will and being true to who they are.

My best friend still struggles with this fear. She is afraid to even question the Christian belief that she was raised with. Afraid that some unimaginable evil will be visited on her for even considering that maybe everythign in the bible isn't true. And I find that so incrediably sad.

She has asked me "but what if your wrong"?? And she was serious. all I know is that I don't care if I'm "wrong" about the Chrisitan God. In fact in a way I feel like a reverse crusator. I'm fighting to get back the ancestral beliefs that have been decimated by missionaries and monotheism. I'm just not using a sword to do it to them, like they did to my ancestors.

[irishgreengables]

I think I am not so much UN-Christian as I just don't buy into how the contemporary Christian church celebrates Christianity. I agree that the bigotry is rediculous. I also feel that the Christian church has created this little tiny, very Western, very Eurocentric, anthrocentric box into which to put God -- and it doesn't reflect the spiritual lives of most of the world...and yet the Christian church tries very hard to make the rest of the world fit into the Christian spiritual box. I am continually dis-heartened by a renewed Christian effort to colonialize and by the emphasis on making more Christians so everyone can go to heaven as opposed to making a more heavenly world right here on earth.

I often times feel like there is just no place for me to worship.

Shall I throw the ringer in here? The punch-line? My pre-SAHM job? A Lutheran pastor. Hmmm....how will that look when I decide to return to work?

Peace,

[Arduinna]

interesting perspective Paula.

I think part of the problem is that any time you have a faith that includes the need for salvation you are going to have missionary work. JMO but the two go hand in hand. After all all us heathens and pagans and sinner have to be saved. So I don't see a way out of this mess without some serious change in the belief in salvation.

and I don't see that happening anytime soon :-(

[Rainbow]

For me it isn't just the practice of christianity or organized religion- I have problems with things in the bible itself.

I tell myself that it's just because I've been so indoctrinated in the christian belief system, I still have some free floating guilt/fear hidden in there. But the idea that I may be dooming my children is pretty scary ... keeps me awake wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

This is where my husband is right now, and even me on some days. I ask myself "what if I am condemning my children instead of saving them?" DH wants to believe my rational thoughts are true, and he is an intelligent man- he can use reason... but he is scared. Indoctrinization starts young- I've often wondered how AP, no-tv, non-violence families allow viewing of biblical children's books that are incredibly violent. IMO, that is where the indoctrinization starts. The images serve a purpose, it roots fear.

[wednesday]

I was raised Christian--in a very strict Freewill Baptist denomination, attending a Christian elementary school and going to services three times a week. As a child, I believed what I was taught up until a point, but there was a lot that didn't feel right to me. I was very disturbed by things like the Noah's ark story, Abraham preparing to kill Isaac, the story of Job, and so on. I think the story of Job toubled me the most. It just seemed so unjust for God to allow his most faithful follower to suffer to prove some kind of point to Satan.

I don't consider myself Christian or even believe in God at all now. It just doesn't add up for me. If there is a God, he didn't give me this logical brain to just go and ignore all the inconsistencies in the Bible.

[Rainbow]

oops, wrong thread. :LOL

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by wakeUpMama

I was raised Christian--in a very strict Freewill Baptist denomination, attending a Christian elementary school and going to services three times a week. As a child, I believed what I was taught up until a point, but there was a lot that didn't feel right to me. I was very disturbed by things like the Noah's ark story, Abraham preparing to kill Isaac, the story of Job, and so on. I think the story of Job toubled me the most. It just seemed so unjust for God to allow his most faithful follower to suffer to prove some kind of point to Satan.

I don't consider myself Christian or even believe in God at all now. It just doesn't add up for me. If there is a God, he didn't give me this logical brain to just go and ignore all the inconsistencies in the Bible.

The one of Abraham bothers me... I just can't swollow the thought of killing my children because God told me to. We have had women in our society make this claim and we are disgusted by them. That didn't make abraham a good servant in my eyes, it made him a lousy father.

And the last sentence is exactly how I feel... I do believe if god exists that he would understand my logical reasonings on the bible.

[layla]

Here are a few of my thoughts, in no way complete, or black & white. Any "Christian" who is a bigot is not Christian, but a bigot hiding behind anything he/she thinks is plausible. Christianity does not encourage bigotry. I think of myself as Catholic & we go to church, but also believe in the Goddess and many other entities. C'mon, one God and a bunch of mortals? I think not, though I do believe that God is absolute and the others play lesser roles. I think God could care less what you wear, how you dye your hair or what you eat as long as you are a good person, have a good heart and really try your best not to do ill to others, including "lesser" creatures than humans. I think men wrote the bible, the Koran and every other religious book out there and we can't find any absolutes in any of them. The New Testsament (and the Koran for that matter) were written many years after the facts that they speak of by men who say the spoke to God or were there when something big happened or heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend! It's simply ridiculous to think that any religious book is speaking the absolute truth. Soem guys version of the truth maybe, or maybe some kook who was charasmatic enough to make people believe him.. Who knows? We'll never know the truth about anything, it's way too complex and mind bogling for us mere mortals, but anyone who kills, beats, maims or otherwise forces their will on another is NOT a good Chritian, Jew, Buddhist, Pagan, Muslim or any other religion. They are evil. Questioning everything is good, but so is believeing in something if it makes you feel better.I believe in God and Jesus and that Jesus was a great man who did great things and people should be more like. He was kind to Mary Magdelene when others wanted to stone her. He was kind to lepers and fed the hungry. That's good stuff right there. All those wackos who kill or are racists or whatever in the name of Jesus don't kow his teachings at all. He was a Jew, how can some Christians "hate" Jews? Does God care if you worship in the right "church" or if you have love for your neighbor? Zealots of any religion who harm otehrs are the ones who are gonna have a big surprise on Judgement Day, not the likes of us who simply ask a few questions, but basiclly have love in our hearts. I go to church, but am pro-choice. Others go to church, yet vaccinate their kids or have sex before marriage or whatever, none of us are perfect, but again, those are man-made laws by my account. God Himself didn't tell me not to have sex with my dh when he was still dp. Of course he didn't tell me to do it either! :LOL So, my little tirade is over. My two cents are believe what make you feel good inside and sleep well at night and be good inside your heart, where it really matters. to you mamas!