Christian Skeptics & Ex-Christians - Page 5

[Pam_and_Abigail]

Hello again MamatoFallon! Hope we get to meet this summer. *wave*

[DaryLLL]

CookieMonsterMommy, so sorry you are going through such hard times! And you're so young. Big hugs.

[lab]

cmm


I am so sorry to hear of your loss - I read your other post

My heart goes out to you.

[Rainbow]

Welcome to the new mommies

Going through miscarriages was one thing that really hardened me. We always say God was guiding us or god was protecting us. I hate the idea of believing in a god who might protect someone from making a silly decision- but didn't protect my babies or me from suffering through 7 miscarriages.

I'm doing alright- news is spreading and my normal "how are you" phone calls have ceased. So oh well. Screw 'em. Right?

in our old religion voting was a no-no (not being part of the world and not putting your faith in men). I've put off registering because I wanted to prepare DH for it. I talked to him last night and although he still believes in teh religion, he left with me for other reasons. I thought he'd be irritated. He said "you're an adult- you can make your own choices" and assured me he didn't care and he loved me no matter what choices I make. Man I love him Couldn't convince him to register with me though. :LOL He said he may want out, but he doesn't feel comfortable doing things he was raised to believe were wrong.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Rainbow

Welcome to the new mommies

Going through miscarriages was one thing that really hardened me. We always say God was guiding us or god was protecting us. I hate the idea of believing in a god who might protect someone from making a silly decision- but didn't protect my babies or me from suffering through 7 miscarriages.

Sorry to hear about your losses!

I'm doing alright- news is spreading and my normal "how are you" phone calls have ceased. So oh well. Screw 'em. Right?

You will find new friends and a support system to replace those um, cultists.

in our old religion voting was a no-no (not being part of the world and not putting your faith in men)..

This is why I used the strong term cult.

[KoalaMama]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

This is why I used the strong term cult.

According to Meriam-Webster -- cult: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

It's interesteing how society views the term cult. Basically, the media has turned "cult" into the dirty little word.

Sociologists have tried to categorize religious activity based on the social organization and the types of activities the group partakes in, thus the church/sect/cult labels. In reality, many religious groups can be termed cults, and many that are called cults are actually sects, many sects are churches... and so on.

With the Christian tradition in mind (synopsis from Comprehending Cults by Lorne L. Dawson)...

Church - Organizations which people are born into and baptized as infants. Membership is involuntary. Inclined to be dogmatic and ritualistic.

Sect - Voluntary organization to which people usually convert, often created by schisms in the church. Beliefs tend to be stricter and more radical than churches. Inclined to be inspirational, volatile and often anti-ritualistic.

Cult - Compared to churches, share much in common with sectarian religions. More concerned with esoteric teachings and the satisfaction of personal needs and desires. Usually loosely organized, and often display no systematic orientation to broader society.

It's interesting how many religions can start as one thing and end up classified as another. Roman Catholicism would have been seen as a cult when it started.

(Hope this didn't bore anyone too much! Thanks for reading if you got this far. : )

[DaryLLL]

No, I agree with you, MTF. Cult is word used by Biblical scholars to refer to any religious group, not just the far-out ones our popular culture has decried today.

I was using the popular definition in my reluctance to call JW a cult. I am not trying to offend any JWs who might be lurking on this thread. But, not voting seems to go a bit far. Makes me wonder what else they do not allow.

[Midnight Mom]

Didn't bore me at all. I found the definitions about cults & sects very interesting. Still trying to wrap my brain around what is what. It would be helpful if you could give an example of an existing organization for each, but of course don't want anyone to be offended by thier org. being called a cult, if that's not what they consider it. kwim?? Don't think we should open that can-o-worms.

Anyhow, just soaking up all the info I can get my hands on. Thanks for sharing.

[Rainbow]

I think it fits the definitions of a high control group to a "T" myself. In the pop culture sense I wouldn't call it a destructive cult- as it is highly pacifist in nature. But the control issues associated with cults are there. Margaret Thaler Singer wrote well on the subject.

Berkely's "Cult Characteristics" describes it well.

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mom

It would be helpful if you could give an example of an existing organization for each, but of course don't want anyone to be offended by thier org. being called a cult, if that's not what they consider it. kwim?? Don't think we should open that can-o-worms.

The experts don't even really agree on what falls into what categories. And you're right, nobody sees their religion as a cult or high control group. Once they do they usually consider themselves ex-members.

[Midnight Mom]

Completely T

Rainbow, where are you moving from and to? I assume that is what your packing reference means!

I love learning about the places all you mamas live.

[KoalaMama]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mom

Didn't bore me at all. I found the definitions about cults & sects very interesting. Still trying to wrap my brain around what is what. It would be helpful if you could give an example of an existing organization for each, but of course don't want anyone to be offended by thier org. being called a cult, if that's not what they consider it. kwim?? Don't think we should open that can-o-worms.

I'm happy to give examples. These classifications are based on descriptions laid out by sociologists; the negative connotation is applied by the media and really shouldn't be given any credence at all. I hope that anyone reading would understand that and not take offence, as it's certainly not what's intended. Now that the disclaimer has been noted...

Church - Roman Catholic, Church of England

Sect - Jehovah's Witness, Church of Science, Pentecostal

Cult - Unification Church, Scientology

It's worth noting that not all sociologists agree on what organization falls into what category, and there are many, many different versions of this idea with subcategories (i.e. common typology introduced by J. Milton Yinger breaks this down into six types, not three; Bryan R. Wilson has a sevenfold typology of just sects). And of course these things shift as the organization gets older, becomes more wide-spread, etc. But these examples generally fall in with the descriptions I posted above.

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by Midnight Mom

Completely T

Rainbow, where are you moving from and to? I assume that is what your packing reference means!

I love learning about the places all you mamas live.

Well, we're moving about 15/20 minutes away :LOL adventurous aren't we? Basically we moved here (Northwest Arkansas) from Austin and thought it was such a short drive to work- being from Austin we were used to long commutes. So when we moved here we thought our house was so close, and fast to get to and from. Once we got used to it though it was much further than we actually needed to be.

We're moving *right* next to DH's work. We're simplifying. We'll have a 3rd of the house space to clean (YAY!) and we'll be able to go back to being a one car family without it meaning me becoming a hermit. We'll be in bike riding distance to a great park, DH's work, and the farmers market. So really we only need the car when we go out of town & cold or bad weather. Once a month I'll drive about 25 miles away to the co-op and do a few other errands on my way. We'll be saving so much per month that we'll be able to get all the old debt out from over us. The goal is for us to be mobile so we can consider moving out of country to a more family friendly society. Either that or staying in the US and DH being able to go to working part time so we can have much more time at home together as a family. Either way we're moving towards our goals and we're real excited about it.

[Rainbow]

So- interesting info here. Well, to me anyway

Before I decided to let go of my religion I had considered myself weak. Since it wasn't ever real to me I figured there was something wrong with my faith and my ability to believe. I asked a woman from our church to study with me to help get me back on track.

I was so worried about how I would "end" this study. Because despite my feelings about religion- I adore her. She and her DH were actually in our will to take care of our children should something happen to us. We really loved this couple.

Well, I told her we were moving to Rogers- which means I'll be in a new congregation. She won't be able to count time for spending time with me anymore (JW's record their time in the ministy and she is a pioneer who volunteers 70 hours a month). She pretty much dropped me. Hasn't called or stopped by since then. I even left her a message and she never replied. She hasn't replied to my emails. basically she's done with me since she can't count time with me.

It breaks my heart, but at least now I know how real her friendship was(n't) I guess. I have no idea what to do about our will thing now. We don't know anyone ANYONE who we would want our kids to be with. Hopefully in time we'll make friends and find community. it is hard because DH and I are so different.

[Mother2Amaya]

Oh jeez do I fit in here too or what? Hi Rainbow! I'm coming to jump in on your thread!

Being American Indian, I am an automatic Christianity skeptic after seeing a lot of history in this country of Christians/American Indians. I grew up going to church with a neighbor girl but honestly felt uncomfortable there. They did a play on Thanksgiving and made me play a Pilgrim, which was culturally devestating to me I believe.

At any rate, I do believe in a 'higher power' and want my dd to grow up with some sort of faith and ritual in her life but am totally clueless about what that should be.

[Midnight Mom]

Thanks MamaToFallon, that helped my understanding of the different categories.

Rainbow, I'm sorry your so-called friend treated you that way. At least now you know she was only trying to rack up points for herself, at least that is how it sounds to me. You will find new friends, do you not have any family members that you would want to raise your dc if (goddess forbid) something happened to you and dh? This is a huge decision and a very difficult one. HUGS to you!!

But on the other hand, you sound like you are actively working your way towards to family's goal. More time together, in a family friendl society, YAY!!! I know moving sucks though (especially the packing). I've always been interested in moving to Austin, it's so much cooler (the people and music, not temp. wise) than Dallas. I love the city's slogan...Keep Austin Weird!!!

Hi and welcome, Mother2Amaya
Jump right on in and tell us about your journey. Have you investigated any other spiritual paths, than christianity? Do you have a connection to your specific American Indian culture and spiritual practices? Good luck on your search, glad to have you here.

[Rainbow]

Amy- I'm half NA myself. My mother is Saginaw Ojibwe. She is spiritually more in tune to her tribes beliefs than Christian beliefs. My dad raised us mostly though, and he thought he had to give us Christianity, though I don't think he believes himself. I don't know, he's confusing.

Midnight Mom, we really don't have anyone. Many of our family (like parents and siblings) have not even met our kids. I do know and believe in time we will find community though and it won't be an issue any more. it is just a matter of being patient and hoping nothing happens to us in the meantime.

[Rainbow]

MM- I hate the heat in TX but I DO really miss Austin. Where I live now isn't my ideal place iykwim

[DaryLLL]

Rainbow, I don't get it. Your mom is NA and your dad is a non-believing/so-so Xtian, yet you and your dh are just getting out from heavy duty JW, with much stress from family? Pls explain. Is it mostly yr dh's family? Are you not in contact with yours?

[Rainbow]

It is kind of confusing isn't it? :LOL

Basically when my dad wanted custody (we were in foster care) he befriended my foster parents who were JW. He studied and got baptized. I think he did it more because to get custody he felt he needed religion- well, I wouldn't be suprised if this wasn't told to him by the court or attorney. He married my step mom who was a JW and they "fell out" together. He never let go of many JW teachings so I wasn't really allowed to be around "worldly" (non JW) kids or celebrate but we didn't have the benefit of a steady congregation either. My dad was in and out of rehab and was abusive so I was in and out of foster care. He'd get clean and dabble in Christianity and get high and curse it. At my foster it was a regular thing. When I got to driving age or slightly before he was in a "hate them" stage and I wanted to piss him off- so I started studying. It worked, and I was kicked out (I was 16) Being alone and vulnerable I sort of let the congregation I was studying with take me in. I went with the flow because I didn't have any reason not to.

My story is long and complex. There are so many different ways I lived growing up. My mom left my brother and I when I was 4- which is why we were in foster care to begin with so I never really got to understand her spiritual views until adulthood when we "re-met". Though I think she was estranged from her family/tribe the years I was with her and unsure of her spiritual self.

Now my dad doesn't hold onto any JW teachings but doesn't really talk religion- so I don't know where he is. My DH's family are all devout- elders and overseers and pioneers. Well, all but one grandpa who says he'd be one if he didn't like gambling so much. lol.