Are there really people here who aren't sure if they will bf or not? - Page 5

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by klothos

whoa. around here, the ped's give out formula samples. and you get bottles + samples at the hospitals when you deliver, also.

The pediatricians I am referring to is Dr. Paul M. Fleiss and Dr. Jay Gordon in Los Angeles, California.

They are on the LLLI advisory board.

Pediatricians extraordinaire.

[Gidget]

=thirtycats
But she just got very mad and told me to mind my own business.

This is the attutide that makes so many bf moms angry at ff moms. And yes, even a little judgemental. I see too many instances where a mom decides to wean, she SAYS she thinks she is not making enough milk, or some other perceived problem. Others jump in with some well worded ideas on how to help her. Then they are jumped all over and called militant and even Nazi. Then it finally comes out that she just "wants her body back". Yes, that attitude does make me mad.

I had problems with my first child that led to weaning at three months. He seemed to no longer want it. He pulled off and cried all the time. I did not know about the three month growth spurt, supply/demand, pumping correctly at work, and supplemening affecting supply. It all added up real fast. But I never got defensive. And I made sure I was informed with the next child. We ended up havin major supply problems and worked for WEEKS while supplemening until I could bf her completely. She bf'ed for 15 months then I pumped for her after my ds was born when she was 19 months. so yeah, cavalier attitudes toward it make me angry.

Ginger

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by Gidget

This is the attutide that makes so many bf moms angry at ff moms. And yes, even a little judgemental. I see too many instances where a mom decides to wean, she SAYS she thinks she is not making enough milk, or some other perceived problem. Others jump in with some well worded ideas on how to help her. Then they are jumped all over and called militant and even Nazi. Then it finally comes out that she just "wants her body back". Yes, that attitude does make me mad.

But if you were a ff mom, wouldn't you be angry too? Parenting issues in general are just such touchy areas. No one wants to be made to feel like they're a bad mom. And I can't seem for the life of me to find a way to offer information about breastfeeding, about AP, about homebirth, or homeschooling, or whatever that doesn't come off as offensive to a lot of people. It's like talking politics, except that the people you vote for are your children. There are the occassional moms who really do want to know about all the different ideas out there, but in general, once someone has subscribed to a philosophy, they don't seem very likely to change it without coming across the information on their own or reluctantly taking someone else's information recommendation. I know that I for one work that way.

For instance, I had been told many times how wonderful charting your fertility is. Because I had funky cycles, I assumed that it wouldn't be possible for me and that I really wasn't interested anyway (not for any particular reason, mind you). But then I wanted to try for a second baby. So I decided that I should try charting. I bought Taking Charge of Your Fertilty, the very book that had been recommended to me by others that I had declined. Suddenly, I was hooked! I found that there was a pattern to what I had thought was chaos! I can't imagine now why everyone doesn't empower themselves by charting their cycles.

It's the same with breastfeeding. If I had decided that it wasn't for me, for whatever reason - and I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that a big reason for people not wanting to do it would simply be not having been raised with it - then someone tried to tell me that breastfeeding was better, well there's a good chance I might not listen. Of course, my other choices lead me naturally to breastfeeding, but we're talking about some hypothetical other-me who doesn't homebirth or question the medical establishment.

Breastfeeding also falls into one of the many categories of things we (the collective, US societal "we") know is better for our kids, but don't really care too much about. People also smoke around kids, feed their kids crap food, eat crap food themselves, drink, do drugs, etc. etc. etc. The real thing that people don't know, and perhaps what the selling point should be, is that breastfeeding can make life easier. As a mom who pumped for 13 months and couldn't nurse at all, I am so looking forward to being able to nurse a baby and leave the house without having to be back home for scheduled pumping or without taking a bunch of bottles with me (and in my case, a cooler). Breastfeeding in bed instead of getting up and making a bottle in the middle of the night sounds soooo attractive.

[Gidget]

In case you have not read any of my many posts on the subject in this forum,I was a ff mom once. When my bf relationship with my first failed at three months. Supplementing was a major player in it. If someone was talking to me and telling me about supplementing bieng bad and how some people give up and all that. I would have agreed and made an example of my case. At the time I thought my son no longer wnated to nurse. I was right, but the reasons were not as clear to me then as they are now. I am not at all defensive when people talk about how gross formula is cause I feel the same and I wish I could go back in time and fix the problem. And the regret still hurts 9 years later. And, dare I say it......YES! My son has health and weight issues that I often think ff'ing him may have contributed to. SO, I was there and if someone had come up and told me even a week later what I could have done to fix it, I would not have been defensive in the slightest, actually, I would have been all over them for more info on how to fix the problems and reinitiate my nursing relationship with my son.

Ginger

Edited to add: If people would stop letting their pride get in the way of info and prgress, they could learn something. If someone refuses to bf a child because of the attitudes of the militants, what does that say about thier attitudes? I agree that some people take it way too far, but if you do something opposite of what someone else thinks only to be unlike them, well... how sad. Do you refuse to worship GOd because of the cultish nuts out there? It is our personal responsibility to do the research and form our own opinions, not base it on what someone did, said or heard.

[Lucysmama]

I just have to day BRAVO to you mamas out there who exclusively pumped for 1+ year! I did it for months, due to latch/nipple confusion issues. It was one of the most challenging aspects of parenthood for me. I commend you all for your dedication to your babies!

[Aura_Kitten]

If someone refuses to bf a child because of the attitudes of the militants, what does that say about thier attitudes?

... that maybe they are too scared and intimidated to ask for support from these people?

... that maybe they feel they won't really be understood no matter what circumstance they encounter?

... that maybe they're scared off by the attitudes of the militants?

Do you refuse to worship GOd because of the cultish nuts out there?

... if it were only the "cultish nuts" out there who were educating people about god... wouldn't you? (for the record, i'm wiccan, but not because of the cultish nuts who believe in the christian god.)

... do you choose to take your information from people who seem level-headed and unbiased, or people who seem ready to die for their cause regardless of any other situation or information they may be presented with?

militant breastfeeders freak me out. i'm pro-breastfeeding, but i'm compassionate enough to not hold it against a mother if she doesn't or if she "fails." when my sister would go on and on for literally over an hour extolling the benefits of breastfeeding -- it got a little dreary. she was saying the same things over and over and over... i tuned her out. is this what people want? or do they really want people to listen and think, "hey, i can do this!" because i think a lot of pro-breastfeeding people go about their breastfeeding support and promotion the wrong way.

[Gidget]

You must have a different idea of militant than me. I posted about nicely giving some good advice and you said that ff'ers have a right to be mad when given advice. Why do we have to be open minded to them and thier ideas but they do not have to be open to us and ours when spoken in a thoughtful way. It is a two way street. I was talking about the example I highlighted in a previous post. I think more people need to start taking thier own personal responsibilty. We research alot of things as parents, vaxing, circ'ing, why does bf have to be different. I am understanding of a girl at work who does not bf and chose not to even knowing how much better. She still refuses to to beleive it and even tries to tell me that it really is not all that good and I am supposed to sit theer and let her tell me MY decision was not up to par? Ff'ers are not innocent victims of us here as you may like to think.

Ginger

[Gidget]

And let me say again since you choose to ignore those parts of my posts, I give level headed and sensitive advice. When a woman comes and tells me unasked about her problems with her bf and now ff child I feel since she is appraoching me that I am okay to give her info on what to do next time or even what to do this time if she is still working. If she then tells me that it is none of my business, then why bother? You are still assuming I accost evey ff'ers and tell her what she is doing wrong. That is so not the case. I either find a good opening or let her bring it up.

Ginger

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by Gidget

In case you have not read any of my many posts on the subject in this forum,I was a ff mom once. When my bf relationship with my first failed at three months. Supplementing was a major player in it......SO, I was there and if someone had come up and told me even a week later what I could have done to fix it, I would not have been defensive in the slightest, actually, I would have been all over them for more info on how to fix the problems and reinitiate my nursing relationship with my son.

For one, no I don't read your other posts in this forum. I never read this forum because I couldn't nurse due to my son's severe cleft and reading about nursing usually makes me cry. I came across this particular thread in New Posts, checked it out and found I had something to say. I am a major breastfeeding advocate. I'd like to think that if I had been a ff'r due to personal choice that I would have been open to suggestions, but I'm pretty sure that my typically stubborn personality would have been a hurdle for any bfing advocate to get over.

I don't come across many people IRL who are having trouble with breastfeeding and are supplementing with formula. Okay, I don't ever come across these people. That's sort of a small group of people who are probably in their post-partum stage, stuck in their homes, if they're anything like I was or like a lot of women here were.

I do come across pregnant women and women with older babies. When I do meet women having trouble with bfing, I refer them to LLL. That usually doesn't come off as offensive at all. The pregnant women I tend to meet usually plan on bfing. I can't remember having met anyone planning on ffing. I will usually refer preggos to LLL as well and my big recommendation is to develop a relationship with our local leader who's a certified lactation consultant before they give birth so that they are not intimidated or fearful of asking for support should they need it. This is the best way I've found to spread the word. To tell people where they can get help, when the meetings are, how much I've enjoyed them, etc.

I haven't had the opportunity to extol the benefits of breastfeeding in the way your post suggests might be helpful and/or as has also been mentioned here, offensive. I do not approach ffing moms and ask (harass?) them about why they are ffing. I just go with the assumption that they could have had serious trouble bfing, or that the baby is possibly adopted or that there is some other logical reason excusing them from bfing and that might make my comments about the nastiness of formula to be quite offensive. It is a sensative issue is my point. I hated that I had to carry around a bottle. I was sensative to that fact. I always wanted to tell people that it was breastmilk, which is another thing I try to assume about people bottlefeeding - that it's breastmilk. I just try to give the benefit of the doubt.

I did run into a mom I know a couple of weeks ago. I had not seen her in quite a long time, but knew that she had been pregnant and had a new baby, who was with her. He was about 4 months old. We were talking about her working on her MA thesis and taking him with her and I said, "oh, well when you're nursing, you can take him with you pretty easily." And she said, "Oh I'm not nursing." She explained that she had too much milk in one breast and not enough in another and that she tried for a month to work it out but that he "dried her up." I didn't say anything at all b/c obviously it's a little late. She wasn't able to get the sort of support she really needed to correct whatever problem there was (and I of course did not at all understand the problem she explained and can only imagine that the cure for what she said would be to nurse more on the other breast?). She bf her first child just fine. I don't know for how long, but there were no problems. I wasn't going to criticize her for the decision she made because it really is not my place and it wouldn't have done any good anyway. I don't think she's planning on having any other children soon, so I didn't feel like information she could have used two months ago would have accomplished anything other than making her feel regret. If I see her and she's pregnant again, or if more time has gone by and the subject comes up somehow, I wouldn't hesitate to share with her where to get breastfeeding support. That's my real-life scenario.

If people would stop letting their pride get in the way of info and prgress, they could learn something. If someone refuses to bf a child because of the attitudes of the militants, what does that say about thier attitudes? I agree that some people take it way too far, but if you do something opposite of what someone else thinks only to be unlike them, well... how sad.

Well yeah, but like I said before, I don't think people choose not to breastfeeding because of the militants out there. I think people choose not to breastfeed because they weren't raised with breastfeeding, or perhaps because they're a bit squeamish and think it's gross or something. There are a lot of skewed attitudes out there and I think that for the most part people base their decisions to ff on cultural contexts. You don't ever see women on TV breastfeeding (occasionally you hear about pumping, but it's usually for a laugh, for having made some male feel uncomfortable). The only time you ever hear of breastfeeding in the news is when someone gets arrested for breastfeeding an 8 year old or when someone gets kicked out of Walmart for breastfeeding (if you even hear about that). I see breasts on TV all the time, but they're on Fear Factor or E!'s Wild On or some such show - they're on models and actresses and strippers and are there for the sexual pleasure of men. I don't see advertisements in magazines for breastfeeding, but I see lots of advertisements for formula. I see ads for formula on TV as well. I've heard of breastfeeding in movies - in Daddy Daycare a woman had just weaned her 4(?) year old, but I think it was supposed to be funny as Eddie Murphy had a big fake smile plastered on his face at the time, as though he was horrified. In About a Boy Hugh Grant tries a breastpump on himself. In Look Who's Talking Kirstie Alley's character is pumping & bottlefeeding at a couple of days postpartum. These are not positive images cast of breastfeeding. It is easy to see why so many people choose with such little information - don't we make a lot of decisions that way? Okay, probably not the moms here at MDC, but people in general do not tend to spend much time questioning their doctors, their politicians, their celebrities, their service-providers, their government... People consume what is given to them, plain and simple.

Do you refuse to worship GOd because of the cultish nuts out there?

Well, in a way, yes. I'm an atheist. I came to that conclusion after many years of contemplation and reading, but also the cultish nuts out there make me really reluctant to appreciate any religion at all, though of course I also try to understand and respect that people (not cultish nuts) need that foundation in their lives. I just find it elsewhere, is all.

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by Gidget

And let me say again since you choose to ignore those parts of my posts, I give level headed and sensitive advice. When a woman comes and tells me unasked about her problems with her bf and now ff child I feel since she is appraoching me that I am okay to give her info on what to do next time or even what to do this time if she is still working. If she then tells me that it is none of my business, then why bother? You are still assuming I accost evey ff'ers and tell her what she is doing wrong. That is so not the case. I either find a good opening or let her bring it up.

I'm sorry, I was not trying to accuse you of giving bad or insensative advice, I was just trying to see both sides of the issue. I wasn't trying to say that you offend ffers, but that people sometimes get offended. I'm trying to work out why people choose to ff and why they might feel accosted by bfing advocates. I understand that it's hard to talk about hypothetical situations with giving bfing advice to ffers. It's hard for me to come up with situations where these topics organically come up and it's possible to share information. I don't really get the opportunity to very often. When I hang out with more mainstream moms, I talk about what I do and what I've done and will offer information, but I try not to criticize or question their choices because people are sensative, like I said. I just think it's tricky all the way around. I don't ever approach strangers with information, but I think about it. I think about brand new moms carrying their babies in buckets or with formula in their carts and I think about talking to them about their choices, or I have some little question in my head about why they are doing that, but I don't say anything however much I'd like to scream. I'm not trying to say that you accost random women either. It's just the situation where it seems like people would need the information the most - random women with brand new babies in the pediatrician's waiting room or the like. But those are the exact situations where it really isn't my place unless it comes up naturally and is not spurred on by some belief of mine that breastfeeding is a moral imperative or something.

Just thinking here...

[Aura_Kitten]

I think people choose not to breastfeed because they weren't raised with breastfeeding, or perhaps because they're a bit squeamish and think it's gross or something. There are a lot of skewed attitudes out there and I think that for the most part people base their decisions to ff on cultural contexts.

you said that ff'ers have a right to be mad when given advice.

if you're referring to me, where did i ever say this? i don't remember posting this at all.

When a woman comes and tells me unasked about her problems with her bf and now ff child I feel since she is appraoching me that I am okay to give her info on what to do next time or even what to do this time if she is still working. If she then tells me that it is none of my business, then why bother?

maybe it's time you realized that some people just need an ear to hear them out, to get that off their chest and find acceptance somewhere. if they don't ask for your advice outright, IMO don't give it. you'll save yourself, and others, a whole lot of time and effort. what i do now, in any case where somebody comes and bends my ear about something, regardless of whether i agree with it or not, i've gotten into the habit of gently asking them (when they're done), "are you asking for my advice, or do you just need to vent?" many times the response has been, "yeah, i guess i just needed to vent. thank you for listening." they're happier, i haven't wasted my breath -- the world is a more peaceful place.

[StarMama]

Originally Posted by klothos

If they don't ask for your advice outright, IMO don't give it. you'll save yourself, and others, a whole lot of time and effort. what i do now, in any case where somebody comes and bends my ear about something, regardless of whether i agree with it or not, i've gotten into the habit of gently asking them (when they're done), "are you asking for my advice, or do you just need to vent?" many times the response has been, "yeah, i guess i just needed to vent. thank you for listening." they're happier, i haven't wasted my breath -- the world is a more peaceful place.

That's a good idea, Klothos... asking if they want advice. My best friend failed at breastfeeding because she supplemented because her baby had a bad latch and she'd just get too sore after letting him nurse for a long time as newborns naturally do, and I could have *really* helped her, but I didn't say anything more than letting her know there was LLL and Lactation Consultants around. I didn't want to seem militant.

Much later (her baby weaned at 4 months due to bottle preference) we were talking and she said she would have welcomed my advice and assistance. I'm so sad I didn't know! I just figured since she didn't go see a LC she wasn't really all that concerned and I'd just be annoying her. So now I know, and will be able to offer help with any future babes she has, but its sad I didn't get to help her with her first! Its a hard line to try not to cross. You want to help, but you don't want to intrude.

[rareimer]

Originally Posted by klothos

what i do now, in any case where somebody comes and bends my ear about something, regardless of whether i agree with it or not, i've gotten into the habit of gently asking them (when they're done), "are you asking for my advice, or do you just need to vent?" many times the response has been, "yeah, i guess i just needed to vent. thank you for listening." they're happier, i haven't wasted my breath -- the world is a more peaceful place.

i think that's a great way of doing it. while in conversation, without directly asking, sometimes you just don't know whether people want advice or not. and if they don't WANT it, they aren't going to listen.

there are situations where the subject comes up where they might be open to listening to statistics or whatever, but for the most part i don't think breastfeeding advocates walk up to random moms bottlefeeding in the mall or whatever and question their choices. i certainly never would. i am open to giving whatever advice or information people want or are open to, but i don't go preaching to complete strangers. i don't know why people are assuming that's what breastfeeding advocates do. :

[Aura_Kitten]

. i don't know why people are assuming that's what breastfeeding advocates do.

i've had people do that to me.

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by klothos

maybe it's time you realized that some people just need an ear to hear them out, to get that off their chest and find acceptance somewhere. if they don't ask for your advice outright, IMO don't give it. you'll save yourself, and others, a whole lot of time and effort. what i do now, in any case where somebody comes and bends my ear about something, regardless of whether i agree with it or not, i've gotten into the habit of gently asking them (when they're done), "are you asking for my advice, or do you just need to vent?" many times the response has been, "yeah, i guess i just needed to vent. thank you for listening." they're happier, i haven't wasted my breath -- the world is a more peaceful place.

The asking if they want advice is a good idea. I usually am afrad to give it cause of a reaction. As for venting that is okay too, except the people who vent to me usually know how I feel about the topic and it seems to me like they are trying to convince me why they are so different that they could not make the choices I have. I know a girl at work who recently had an abortion and does not bf. She is constantl y telling me why she did this and that KNOWING my feelings on it, it is like she is trying to convince me to see it her way. I never will. I am not mean, but it makes me mad that she expects me to listen to it when she knows my feelings. So I come here to vent. I NEVER vent to them about my feelings, I agree that would be mean. I never make assumptoins when I see a formula or bottle feeding mom. I still stop and admire the cute baby. If feeding comes up in conversation it does and I may tell my expereinces and what helped me and what might help. Other wise I do not bring it up. I try to consider other peoples feelings, but it gets harder when they do not consider mine.

Ginger

[Aura_Kitten]

I know a girl at work who recently had an abortion and does not bf. She is constantl y telling me why she did this and that KNOWING my feelings on it, it is like she is trying to convince me to see it her way.

some people just seek validation like that, because they feel that in rejecting their choices you are rejecting them as a person.

this happened to me w/ one of my friends... eventually i told her, "listen -- i don't agree with the choices you made, but i don't think any less of you as a person. now can we please not talk about it anymore?" it worked.