Continuum concept (ish) Tribe

[Brisen]

I read The Continuum Concept when ds#1 was, oh, something like 8 months. I found it interesting and love the basic idea. I'm not an extreme CCer, but I'm interested in getting more back to it. Any CCing (or close to it) moms here?

[farmer mama]

Hi, I really liked a lot of the ideas in CC, especially the concepts about holding your baby constantly during the "in arms" phase, children having freedom from constant "hovering", and being open to children imitating your tasks. A while ago I was hanging out with some moms from Indonesia, and I was amazed at the lack of interaction/ supervision these women had with their kids, like just trusting a toddler wouldn't just walk off a balcony! At first I was appalled and then realized that they came from a culture with a more continuum concept of child rearing. I still have questions about how well this level of trust works in our modern world of concrete, cars, etc.
Edited to add: In light of all the ism talk here I just wanted to be clear that from my impression these were good moms raising their children here in the states in a more traditional way, and my post is trying to relate how from my western perspective it was unusual and shocking, until I tried to have some understanding of their child-rearing norms. I have read some of Leidoff's writings on observing Balinese cultures and was just applying some of these observations here, in order to get a more complete picture. Of course the kids were fine and the toddler didn't fall off the balcony, and I could tell that my way of interacting with my child was unusual to them. Hope that makes sense and isn't offensive to anyone, if so let me know. I wasn't making a blanket statement about Indonesian culture, just my observations as the only white mother in a particular group of Indonesian mamas, and being curious about different and similar ideas about child rearing.

[farmer mama]

One more thing and then I will be quiet. Like most books on childrearing I take some information and suggestions that resonate and don't apply the things I don't agree with. As a whole I liked this book but some of her ideas, particularly about homosexuality, were pretty off the mark in my opinion. I read it a long time ago, does anybody else remember this? Brisen- I am curious what ideas do you use from the book? Mine are of course baby wearing, but also I am big on trying to give my kids freedom to explore unhampered by my concerns, so I avoid saying "be careful! watch out! not too high/ far/ fast/ etc" unless there is an immediate danger. The way I implement this in todays way of living is by making our home, yard and woods safe areas for exploration (no cars, things like glass or chemicals), and watch my kids without hovering over them or constantly guiding their play.

[MamaAllNatural]

Yep, count me in! I agree it's quite outdated though and I did find the part on homosexuality offensive. I wish she'd do a revised version. Also, I felt that she based every thing on this one small tribe so some of her "arguments" were a bit weak in that respect. Overall though I think everything she says is right on and very important. I already felt and knew most of the things she says and suggests but it was good to have it reinforced. I would love to hear about the exact ways you all implement things from the book into your daily lives. If she'd revise it I'd make everybody read it, but I'm worried many would discount it because of some of her outdated ideas. I wish more people could be enlightened by this book. I look forward to discussing it further.

[EnviroBecca]

I love the book and feel that ~80% of it is very similar to the attitude with which my parents raised me and with which my partner and I intend to raise our child. Before reading the book, I had summed up this attitude as, "We are all people together. This is how we do things." In addition to preventing many parent-child power struggles, I think it is very helpful in developing a healthy attitude toward responsibility and an amicable relationship between the adult child and her parents.

There is a Continuum Concept Website that isn't as thorough as I would like, but it does include Liedloff's retraction of her musings on homosexuality, her observations of several cultures other than the Yequana, and some articles about applying CC to real life in the "first world".

Here is my take on "how well this level of trust works in our modern world of concrete, cars, etc.": These risks are not fundamentally different from the risks of jungle animals, rough water, and knives in the world of the Yequana. We just need to develop our senses to keep us safe in our world. Have you ever tried to EXPLAIN how you maneuver a car in traffic without bumping into things? It's very hard to verbalize, because it's only thru experience that you have developed the ability to "sense" where the edges of the car are. Some of the safety skills we need are learned at a later age but become second nature, like driving skills; others are readily developed from the innate human skills if over-cautious parents don't intervene. Knowing better than to walk off a cliff/balcony edge, for example, is a sense that develops naturally in babies old enough to crawl. Remember, humans are the most advanced of animals, and most animals have lots of safety sense at the time they become self-locomoting!

For those skills that are learned, "This is how we do things." is an effective way of teaching. My parents used to say, "In the parking lot, we all hold hands," in the same tone as, "On Thanksgiving, we eat turkey."--no worries verbalized. Holding hands, they would demonstrate the appropriate way to walk: looking around a lot, stepping back from moving cars. They would narrate their own behavior at the most important points: "Look to the left; look to the right; wait for the car. Look to the left again." No formal instruction was required to teach me to walk safely across a parking lot by myself, because by the time it came up, I'd had plenty of experience and they'd seen that I was walking safely. Of course, much of this experience is built up by taking children nearly everywhere parents go and by having them walk as soon as it's feasible rather than cocooning them in strollers.

[tea olive]

hey ladies. the tcc is a big influence on me, recommended to me after i had my second baby. it was the only parenting book i read for a year. i thought i would go crazy with two kids and learned nurse in a sling. both my younger two babes have been in arms and i just wish i had done it for the first.

i was part of the listserv for awhile but it swamped me emotionally. of course i'm sure it is different now. but it is good to remember that leidloff never had children, and that it is one book. i think what i got out of it is accepting that life is hard and rich, and learning to evaluate and live with less fear.
here are my fotos
http://community.webshots.com/user/casina102
ruby (17mo) is banging the keyboard for me to get off.

[Brisen]

I agree that while the book is great overall, there are many problems. IIRC, she didn't write it as a parenting book; the subtitle is "In Search of Happiness Lost." It was to help unhappy adults who weren't CC parented realize why they were unhappy and try to fix it -- hence the stuff about crawling therapy and why adults love roller coasters. I haven't actually read it since my first time, more than 3 years ago, I should borrow it again. I have been trying to branch out and learn more about different traditional cultures, to get a more balanced view of "CC life."

I like to focus on making sure that I'm not being child-centred or parent-centred, but rather life-centred. Actually, I guess I see it more as a way to work on me as a whole person, rather than using it as a "parenting guide," IYKWIM. I have come to realize that, as much as I was paying lip service to being there for your child etc. as an AP-leaning parent, at the end of the day I was still compartmenalizing my life -- must get child gently to sleep at breast or in sling so I can do the dishes. Must put my needs and interests on hold until baby is old enough to be without me. I love the shift in focus that says I can live my life and include the kids -- they need that. I'm not saying that AP or any other kind of parents don't see it this way, it's just that I needed CC to club me over the head with it, lol. That being said, I struggle with wanting to do things on my own, in my own way, or manipulating my kids so things go the way I need them to be instead of just modeling and calmly radiating my expectation and that this is the done thing (I'm thinking of getting into the car in time for an appointment, or brushing teeth, for example).

I also wish my kids had a greater variety of people in their lives. There are a good amount of kids in our neighbourhood to play with, and I know lots of sahms who want to get together for playdates, but then they want to sit and talk while the kids play. This doesn't work well for me. I know a few older kids and adults who like spending time with my kids, but it's very limited. My 4 yo in particular has always loved talking with adults. I just find it hard giving him what he needs in that area. I don't know many adults who like hanging out with kids in the way he wants to hang out, IYKWIM. Most either want them to go and play on their own, or want to orchestrate some big child-centred activity.

And about safety -- I don't think I've met the "cc ideal" in this area, though I do trust my kids a lot more than most other parents we encounter. Cars is something I have a problem with. I grew up in a rural area, I hate crossing big roads! I'm the kind who stands on the grass instead of the sidewalk with the kids when waiting for the light to change. We live in a townhouse/condo complex, so there are a bunch of small parking lots throughout in front of the rows of homes. I have explained to my kids that the parking lot and roads are where the cars belong, and the sidewalk and grass is where people belong. Most other families here let their kids play in the parking lot. This is something I'm just not comfortable with -- largely for dks' safety, but also because, well, it is a parking lot -- it isn't a playground, yk? I wouldn't want them to damage any cars, either. And in the summer, it's just to hot and sunny to play in the parking lot, when we have nice shady grass out back!

Glad to see some other ccers here!

[Elzabet]

Hi!! I read CC about 2 months after bringing Gabriel home and it just seemed so normal to try and rear a child in that manner or as close to it as I could manage here in tribeless suburbia.

One of the things we've taken from the CC book is that we tend to trust Gabriel more than some people. I know that makes a lot of difference because he knows we trust him to make decisions on his own and so he tries to. He doesn't always make the "right" choice because he's still a baby but the fact that we gove him the freedom to malke those choices has helped make him very confident. I know that when I was a child not being able to make choices about things really grated on me.

I do notice that Gabriel is more outgoing and independent (by comparison) and he seemed to be more physically "able" at certain ages than others--that is he reached milestones before other kids. I really believe it is a result of us keeping him with us (and on us) in these first months of his life. Have any of you noticed this? I think I read somewhere that near constant carrying a child helps them gain earlier control of their muscles.

Also by raising him this way, it's pointing up issues in my life where my "continuum" is incomplete or injured. I do realize JL didn't write CC as a parenting book but it helps identify a parent's personal issues so that they can try to raise their child in a more attached manner. Knowing what I know, I can deliberately make choices to not extend or project my personal weirdness to Gabriel. That is one of the big things I've noticed about our method of raising him.

Was that anywhere near coherent? If not I can try to be more vague.

[tea olive]

i've really enjoyed the posts. to do the continuum you need the community. it helped me to find a homeschooling group though i have an ideal in my head of how things could be better just due to architecture.

the friend that suggested the tcc a few years ago also lent me a book that i now own and lend out, and tend to link as a companion to the tcc in my mind. it is called a new beginning by abraham-hicks.

[EnviroBecca]

BUMP!!

I also wanted to say that I have found a wonderful "tribe" atmosphere in my church. It is a smallish congregation, about 200 people of all ages. We do all kinds of things together, and there's little attention to how old somebody is or whose child is biologically whose. If a 3-year-old wants to be read a story during the coffee hour, odds are the person who sits down to read to her is not her parent or sibling. Whenever there's a project to work on, or whenever you need help for yourself, you can count on somebody pitching in. It's my village!

Has anybody else found a village that works for you?

[tea olive]

for me that is my local homeschool group. highly recommended.

[myrrhmaid]

i'm re-reading tcc right now after reading it 14 yrs. ago when i had my son.
i'm trying to get to the point where i can learn to be my best parent-since mine were sadly lacking in many ways.
her descriptions of a baby kicking, aching, skin crawling, longing to be held/touched reminds me so much of myself as a listless child. it is excruciating emotionally to read her descriptions.
anyone else trying to make peace with their own lack of parenting through tcc?
i'm just about 1/2 way through and hoping to find some solid things i can do.
i'm curiuos about the riding roller coasters etc.
i haven't got that far yet-and don't remember it from the 1st time through.
nak

[Brisen]

Finding a tribe is definately tough.

There are some older kids here who like playing with little kids. (People who visit always seem surprised at this.) But, of course, I sometimes object to the kind of influence they have over my kids. I'm probably pretty conservative though -- I didn't like my kids coming home calling each other "bum bum head", lol. I introduced one of my mom friends to CC, she loved it, so that's nice. Unfortunately, we are now on opposite sides of town, so we don't get together much.

Originally Posted by myrhhmaid

i'm curiuos about the riding roller coasters etc.

If I'm remembering correctly, JL believes that people crave the excitement of rollercoasters because they didn't get sort of turned and tossed around in arms.

[MamaAllNatural]

So there's really no hope of her writing an up to date version? I really want to recommend the book to people but they'll most likely discount it because of some of the statements she makes in it.

[Elzabet]

I think the book has been updated (at least sometime within the past 14 years). The TCC site makes mention of some changes she made in the articles section.

[Periwinkle]

I read the book and think it was extremely eye-opening. I have definitely changed the way I parent as a result, though in subtle ways. I wouldn't call myself a CC'er, but I am very careful about the "hovering" thing. I do think as a result, my dd and ds were able to go up and down stairs, climb up on kitchen chairs and sit down, etc. earlier than a lot of tots. My mom has noticed that we obsess a lot less about dd and ds getting into danger. Now, you have to counter that with the fact that we DID childproof - no cleaning supplies or vitamins, outlets plugged, etc. I think the heights/falling thing IS part of our continuum, but avoiding electrical outlets and cherry-flavored Tylenol most definitely is NOT, kwim? When we're at the playground, I also say "OK, time to head to the car" and just (slowly) start to walk to the car. I swear I'm not lying when I say 9 times out of 10 they toddle after me when the distance between us gets too far for their liking (not dangerous far, and of course I'm still watching them carefully). I started that when they learned to crawl and I hurt my back... I couldn't lift both of them simultaneously for a couple of weeks, so I would say, "Time to go to the stroller!" and walk out of the room to the stroller. And they would crawl after me so I could take them out to the car (our stroller stays in our front hall, and used to be handy transport to the car before they could walk). A lot of people I know have to chase after their kids. I NEVER made that into a game.... the whole, running around and fleeing mommy chase game when it's time to go somewhere.

Anyway, while I did get some really great perspectives from the book, I have several serious problems with it still. First, as others have mentioned, it's based on a very small sample of the human population. Second, she had no training in anthropology or sociology before she went on her first trip - she apparently made a whole lot of associations and inferences that first time (a common mistake in people unaccustomed to observing in a scientific way) that may have seriously clouded her judgement, especially when it came time to writing down what she was seeing and thinking about WHY things were the way they were. As in, "Look! The kids are happy! Let's find the first thing that sticks out as different from my culture [constant babywearing, for example] and call that the reason why!" I love babywearing and think it is wonderful, but that assessment (and others like it) seem a little naive to me and discount any number of other valid reasons why they may seem happy to a girl from North America. There has also been a part of me that feels like the book is a little too, um, racist, for lack of a better word. I know that's super-inflammatory to say, but the whole "young white girl goes to an uncivilized and primitive tribe, thinking they're the next best thing to Neanderthals. I mean, who's to say they haven't advanced in ways that suit their own social, physical, economic, and demographic needs, just like the rest of us? Just because they don't have cars and TVs and Diet Coke doesn't make them "less than" us or "behind" us in my book. People have brilliant minds and are able to adapt to their circumstances in amazing ways -- just because the Yequana didn't communicate regularly with the "outside world" doesn't mean they haven't adapted or advanced since the dawn of time! And yeah, the homosexuality thing bugs me too. I know she "retracted it" but it calls into question a lot of her judgements.

But... all this notwithstanding, I think it is a very good book - one perspective on human existence, and does raise some really interesting challenges to modern-day parents, especially as it relates to over-focus on young children, unwillingness to include children in daily chores, hovering and being over-protective, and bypassing the breastfeeding and "in arms" phase.

I do recommend it to people, even mainstream friends, because I think it is a good book and very interesting. But IMO it's not a "parenting book."

[tea olive]

the past week ruby has been fussy. and i know that it is with the influence of this book (even indirectly from having friends that parent similarly) that i can carry her in the sling, breast available, and even with all her complaining, know that i am doing what i can and go about my business, which today actually calmed her enough to fall asleep for a timely nap.
(hey don't get me wrong it isn't always that easy!)

[EnviroBecca]

Over lunch today, we were watching the toddler at the next table eating some kind of "carrots for toddlers" out of a jar, w/parents nudging her away every time she reached for their Chinese food, and we started discussing whether or not baby-food is "continuum". As for most things, I hesitate to make an unequivocal judgment, but it seems to me that IN GENERAL, having special separate food for your child distances her from the family/tribe. It's like saying, "You are not one of us; you are not allowed to eat what we eat." Of course, there are some foods that are too dangerous for people w/just a few teeth, but most adult meals have SOME components that can be eaten by toddlers.

My parents began letting us eat from their plates when we showed an interest. They planned meals for the family w/emphasis on things that would be easy for us to pick up and things they could easily mash and spoon-feed to us. We never had a highchair but sat on a parent's lap at the family table. The concepts of "your plate" and "use your fork" and "please pass the rice" got taught around 2-3 years old. I remember finding it odd when other adults would comment on how my brother and I ate foods that "kids don't like" (we did have a lot of individual preferences, but not many of the typical ones) and were willing to try some new things and were "well behaved" when eating w/adults--why did they expect us to be different?

What do you all think about baby-food?

[Elzabet]

I think baby-food is a waste of money to be honest. It makes no sense to "introduce" food to baby that is bland, and with no sort of seasoning when the foods they will be expected to eat later are not. Take veggies. Commercial baby food veggies taste totally different from mama-cooked veggies. They don't have the same texture and sometimes not even the same color. And the taste would put even the most die hard vegan off her feed.

Also, you end up introducing the same food twice that way because of the difference between commercial baby food and mama cooked foods. That is just a waste of time for both the parent and child. We let Gabriel eat some of what we were eating after a couple of months of wasting money on baby food for that very reason. We did it slowly over several weeks to see if he had any allergies or whatever (nope none). He enjoyed it and even though he's going through a weird eating phase right now, I think he'll be a well rounded eater later on.

And, for the record, he loves Chinese!

[MamaAllNatural]

I'm with you Beca!

Also, I felt that JL's main point is about the constant baby holding and carrying. I read some recent papers of hers on the 9 month "in arms period." It was really intriguing. It may have actually been written by one of her collegues. Did anyone else read this? I carried & wore my first probably as much as most attachment type parents. I wore my second even more and then I wore my 3rd pretty much constantly as she suggests. It was amazing to see the difference. Did any of you do this with any of yours? If so I would love to hear what differences you noticed.

*T Casina, I meant to tell you I got your pics to work this time and, oh my, you guys are such a gorgeous family!