Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 6

[Jenne]

Hello all! Not a momma yet but I just finished reading TCC last night. Wow! I wish it had more ideas for how adults can "cure" their own lack of in-arms/co-sleeping phase. I have some questions about how I would apply the continuum concepts here in the States with a toddler/older child (the in-arms phase seems pretty simple to me)...(I am still reading the linked thread about TCC vs AP so forgive me if I am being redundant)

* I get Leidoff's idea that by saying "be careful" or "watch what you are doing" you are communicating something else entirely. But I can't figure out how to say things without the opposite being an underlying message. I found this part confusing because of her contradictatory examples (to me). I also understand about children being their own beings capable of making their own decisions and the importance of modeling what the expectation is....so how would you handle the following situations:

-staying in a yard that has no fence--if I say, "stay in the yard" isn't my underlying expecation that I think the child won't stay in the yard?
-sitting in a chair at the dinner table
-behaving around dogs
-aggressive playmates whose continuums are out of whack

Could I also get some opinions on the praise thing? I am really conflicted over this. Helping children to see the intrinsic as well as the extrinsic value of life, to me, is important. If a child does something for mom or dad shouldn't they be thanked and praised? Not like "you are good" but "thank you for carrying that for me, it was a big help." As adults we do things for reinforcement and like to be told good job every now and then. But is this because our continuums are out of whack?

One more thing...I have a variety of great memories from childhood from "cutting the lawn" with my Dad to the scavenger hunts or other "adventures" mom would take us on. Life was a mixture of chores and play but all with an air of fun. Do y'all feel that TCC would not encourage reading to children, playing with them, or planning special activities/adventures? What about going to the park or for a walk? Do you think these things are good for children or put their continuum out of whack? I was thinking that maybe the reason there seems to be little interaction among parent and child in TCC is because of the Yequana culture and not because it is unnatural.

I lied...here's anothe thought...what of redirection in TCC? Again is it not nescessary for the Yequana due to the culture but not harmful to the continuum? Also, Leidoff talked about parents scolding their children for soiling inside the hut but didn't really go into how this was done. Do you think it is a form of "This is NOT how we behave" and then the child is contrite and everything is over?

I have read several books on ADD/ADHD and, IMO and from what I have read, the reason Americans experience these at higher rates is genetic (can go into this later if needed). Therefore many people in the US are raising highly energetic/spirited kids how do y'all see TCC fitting in with this?

Okay...I'll stop for now...look forward to reading your replies!

Cool Breezes,

Jenne

[tea olive]

i know what you are talking about but lack the energy to digress or go further and post. i think posting on it is still timely.

i'm reading a book called the descent of the child by elaine morgan, anyone here read that?

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by Jenne

* I get Leidoff's idea that by saying "be careful" or "watch what you are doing" you are communicating something else entirely. But I can't figure out how to say things without the opposite being an underlying message. I found this part confusing because of her contradictatory examples (to me).

Jenne, Good point. As far as "stay in the yard"-type stuff - I guess a lot of it just has to do with tone. Think about how you would say it to your sibling or your partner, maybe? Like, "hey, stay in the yard." I guess a yard is a weird example. A better one might be "stay on the sand." (Like at a playground.) I think about how I would say that to my husband. I'd say, "Stay on the sand!" clearly expecting him to agree with me. But if I were afraid he wouldn't do it, I'd convey it by having a sort of hopeless or whiny tone, or by adding "okay?" at the end of the sentence.

I didn't really get this part either (and I still have to check myself) until at Christmas time I stepped back and listened to myself and my sisters in the kitchen making Christmas dinner. We are constantly saying, "hand me that spatula," "hey, stir the gravy, quick!" and "check the pies, will ya?" - and our tones conveyed that we *absolutely* expected compliance, which we always got. So now I try to talk to ds the same way. (I think you can add "please" with success, of course, as long as you really believe in the child's compliance.)

-sitting in a chair at the dinner table

This one, I don't know. I guess in general you just believe that children are going to "get it." You have to believe that your child WANTS to do just as the adults. If he/she does not, it is most likely that he/she is not developmentally ready. (Why do we make kids sit in chairs so much in our culture?) You have to have the belief that the child wants to cooperate emblazoned in your brain. You have to totally drive out the idea of "child as manipulator" or "child as misbehaver" that our culture has forced upon us.

-behaving around dogs

Hmmm. . . they will definitely model your behavior, but in the meantime. . . I don't know. I don't have a dog. Maybe someone else can answer that.

-aggressive playmates whose continuums are out of whack

This is a *terrible* problem in our culture. I have no idea how to handle it. Every situation requires a different approach, I guess. I am dealing with this right now. My ds has a relative and a friend who pinch and bite him like crazy. (HARD). Despite my best efforts, I cannot get to him every time before it happens. Do I cut myself off from my family? Quit seeing my friend? I struggle with this so much. The worst part is that people actually say to me all the time, "When is he going to start hitting back?" Like there is something wrong with HIM!!! So far, he reacts just like the Yequana - like a tree branch has hit him, and he's so surprised. But I can't count on this when he's being tortured all the time. He also gets pushed down and pummelled at coffee shops. (I quit going to those, though.) Grrrr.

Could I also get some opinions on the praise thing? I am really conflicted over this. Helping children to see the intrinsic as well as the extrinsic value of life, to me, is important. If a child does something for mom or dad shouldn't they be thanked and praised? Not like "you are good" but "thank you for carrying that for me, it was a big help." As adults we do things for reinforcement and like to be told good job every now and then. But is this because our continuums are out of whack?

Have you read the article on the Alfie Kohn website? http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm Also, his book _Punished By Rewards_, is incredible!

I think there is a huge distinction between saying to your partner, "thanks for taking out the trash!" and "Good job! You took out the trash!" The latter is condescending and implies that you are shocked that s/he took out the trash! Children pick up on this, I'm sure, and realize that when they do something for which they are lavishly praised, they are actually doing something un-expected.

Do y'all feel that TCC would not encourage reading to children, playing with them, or planning special activities/adventures? What about going to the park or for a walk? Do you think these things are good for children or put their continuum out of whack? I was thinking that maybe the reason there seems to be little interaction among parent and child in TCC is because of the Yequana culture and not because it is unnatural.

I agree. When you are home all day alone with a child (if you are), it seems cruel not to play with them, if they have no other playmates. And we are so isolated, that unfortunately us SAHMs have to go to the park to get social interaction sometimes. I think this is just the way it is for a lot of us. But I don't think it's because we aren't Yequana - I think that, for instance, farm life (ha, ha, like there are many family farms anymore!) works just as well as tribal life - there is always something to do, and work and play are very much intertwined. Also, in tribal societies, the older children and fathers and grandparents take time out to play with the baby.

Also, Leidoff talked about parents scolding their children for soiling inside the hut but didn't really go into how this was done. Do you think it is a form of "This is NOT how we behave" and then the child is contrite and everything is over?

This is another thing I've been wondering about because we are doing Elimination Communication and I need some clearer examples. I just keep thinking, when I was in Guatemala, when the kids or animals did anything "wrong," the adults would make a loud "SHHHHHHHHHHT!" sound and wave them out. I'm guessing this something like what the Yequana do - it's sort of an offhand reaction that does not require any words (except maybe muttering) and very little time. ??

I have read several books on ADD/ADHD and, IMO and from what I have read, the reason Americans experience these at higher rates is genetic (can go into this later if needed). Therefore many people in the US are raising highly energetic/spirited kids how do y'all see TCC fitting in with this?

Hmmm. . . well, it's OT, but my understanding of ADD/ADHD from the reading *I've* done is quite different, unless you're talking about Thom Hartmann's (sp?) definition of "genetic"? Anyway, I have a *very* "HN"/"spirited" child. What exactly is your question? IME, doing things according to the continuum has been an incredible experience. I think that most people with a child like mine would have had to disconnect with him, due to stress/lack of understanding. But I am closer to him than ever. We are *so* connected and we have an amazing relationship. I can't imagine what he'd be like if I hadn't read TCC. It scares me to think!

Hope that helps!

MisfitMama

[EnviroBecca]

Misfit Mama, I do know what you mean! It seems like a lot of people who read TCC take it very literally in its specifics and complain that it isn't MORE specific. They are expecting a manual with exact step-by-step instructions on how to raise children. IMO, this expectation springs from classifying it as "a parenting book" when really, it is a book about how to live. I feel like a lot of people miss The Concept altogether.

[Persephone]

Wow, so much info to digest since I've been here last! (I've been on my honeymoon for the past week.) Which leads me to comment on something that someone else said above (Sorry to be so vague.) We went camping on our honeymoon, and brought a hammock. I lay in it one day, and had an urge to rock. So, I got my dh's staff (from the renfest!) and used it to rock myself in the hammock. Then I thought about TCC, and how the urge to rock may have come from an interupted in arms phase, and how nice it was to sit in the hammock, and let it swing me, and the sensations it caused in my head, and throughout my whole body. I let myself swing until I had my fill, and I felt much calmer afterwards. I think that's one way we may be able to complete the in arms phase. I don't think I completed mine that day, but if I had several days/weeks/months of that, maybe I could. As for everything else, I have thoughts too, but I have to let them sit for a while first. Be back.

[tea olive]

the specifics on tcc is what the email list is for. and still there are many interpretations.

sorry, i have hitting kids and i have done the best i can. i finally no longer believe it is completely my fault after six years. some kids are are more physical externally than others. sometimes they mean no harm.

verbalizations i have worked on and still keep on trucking. the book easy to love difficult to discipline helped me define the words. like taking out the trash, i think i would prefer : i'm glad that trash is out and looking at my dp as i said it. there are nuances ranging where one can own the accomplishment and how others can tarnish it.

the direct phrases are important. questions lead to the receiver thinking that there are options to ponder. they will either do it or not, and i agree that we have to believe that we are all doing our best especially in reference to our kids. either they are able or not. once you make an issue, then it gets messy. the please words and manners words bred into us are confusing. they do not always mean what we say. i'm also weeding out the negative phrases. like saying "don't do that" and being specific in saying and showing what to do.

actually i have found talking with my kids to be overrated and sometimes complicates things. i'm a big talker so i'm finally learning to hold and streamline my tongue!

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by casina

the specifics on tcc is what the email list is for. and still there are many interpretations.

Casina - not sure what you're referring to here, but if it's in reference to *my* PP, then I have to disagree - as far as the concept *itself*, there is only one interpretation - but as far as the rest of the book, I agree with you. (If that is even what you are saying?)

sorry, i have hitting kids and i have done the best i can. i finally no longer believe it is completely my fault after six years. some kids are are more physical externally than others. sometimes they mean no harm.

I don't know if I mentioned the book _Your Competent Child_ by Jesper Juul - there is some amazing insight in that book that might be helpful to you in this case. My ds is not old enough for me to be able to say anything conclusive about hitting or biting. . . but I think there is a *huge* difference between siblings hitting *each other* and having a child that you can't take out in public because s/he bites and hits children at random! In the cases I was talking about, these children definitely mean no harm - they are not even 18 months old. But it's really hard on everyone, nevertheless.

MisfitMama

[tea olive]

misfitmama, your perspective seems very intact, as well as your confidence as a mamma. i loved reading your post.
i just meant that interpretations of using the concept in this society definitely vary. everyone imagines a slightly different thing.

i'll look into the book. i'm wary of random books in the library since sometimes they are toxic for me but i love recommendations. no, my kids don't hit or bite strangers in public. how odd. that sounds like a serious cry for attention. but hitting is definitely a behaviour that has been exacerbated by reactions, that i'm just glad to know that as their impulse control grows up it goes away.

[MamaAllNatural]

Hi Mamas!

I haven't had much time to be on the computer lately. I hope it's alright if I just pop in real quickly w/a question.

I let my kids climb trees all the time. I even encourage it. I think it's natural, fun and good for them (physically, mentally etc.) I had a two acre apple orchard I grew up on and all of my silbings and I spent most of our days climbing trees. Children in trees has always been perfectly normal to me. Apparenlty, this is not so for most parents though.

I am getting really horrible reactions from people every day WRT my children climbing trees. Especially my 6 yo ds is really into it. He loves it. He's good at it. Every time though someone sees him, a neighbor, a random parent at the park etc. they comment, "Careful!" "Don't break your arm!" or they say to me, "Did you know he's way up in that tree!?" I could go on and on. It's really starting to bother me. I don't want to justify it to every single person. What's the big deal w/climbing trees? I don't see how it's any more dangerous than most play structures at the park.

Have any of you dealt w/this? Any input/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[tea olive]

hey mamma!
i've got the tree climbers. most notably i have photos of reed naked, in a tree at least six feet off the ground, spying on the daycare next door. who were of course absolutely horrified. generally we are horrified at each other and it is better for me to find it amusing except for the pitiful crying babies. do you need to formulate a press statement? sometimes if i have a certain thing i say everytime i don't have to think about it and it ends the discussion.
childhood has really changed, cc or not. some of us when we were kids we could roam around on a bike after a certain age. i don't see this allowed except for the poorest of people in my town. who are criticized for allowing such a behaviour but at least their kids have some sort of independence.

[mamaley]

i've just started reading this book and so far it's very interesting. i have a question about something i read in the introduction, she says (and i don't have it with me so i can't quote it) something like that women shouldn't stay at home with their children because they become bored and are boring people. what does she think should be the alternative? and i'm assuming this is a critique of our society not letting women take their children to work, and of our society having families (women) being so isolated and tribeless? is this right?

[tea olive]

you're right. we should be able to work with our kids. gasp. the sound of a child crying shouldn't be a big deal. actually i know of a few instances where a mamma has brought her baby or children to work. generally they were small businesses but never planned, it just turned out that the employers and fellow employees were okay with it. i know when i get cranking on my business from home it will be no big deal. and running a store or doing errands or such could be done with kids.

[Persephone]

That line is what gave me the freedom to start thinking about work again. I was so absorbed with thinking about kids and such, that I thought I couldn't have time to do anything else. But then I realized that we shouldn't be so focused on the kids all the time, so I started thinking about what I could do from home to occupy my days, so that I wouldn't be so focused on kids. I'm lucky, I have a couple years to start something before the kids come along, so I can have an established business by the time they get here. I have this vision of a home based business, with maybe a workshop/store attached to the house, so I can be "at work", and then run home if I need to (Since "home" would be just the other room, or next door!) And the kids would be allowed to move freely between them.

[tea olive]

the vision me and dh had before he hurt his back was to move somewhere seriously urban have run something like a deli and live in the floor or two above. that way my kids could run in and out and learn as well.

[Jenne]

Hey Mommas, sorry to post and run...I was unexpectedly called out of town as my Dad's mother passed away...

Thanks for the great replies And ideas to ponder...

Here's some additional questions: Do any of you allow your children to play with dangerous implements like knives, matches, electrical sockets? Do you allow your children to be hit/pushed/hurt by older or other children without interfering?

I know several of you touched on the hitting thing. I agree there is a difference between siblings and kids in a playgroup. I guess for me it goes back to the unfortunate reality that there are many children whose continuums are out of whack due to the way they were parented as infants and I don't think I am personally comfortable not interfereing. What do y'all think?

Cool Breezes,

Jenne

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by Jenne

Do any of you allow your children to play with dangerous implements like knives, matches, electrical sockets?

I don't let ds play with electrical sockets - my rule of thumb is, "if it's likely to kill him, it's not allowed." As for knives - my ds is still too young, IMO, but some friends of ours started letting their kids cut with sharp knives at age 2 (with guidance at first.) . . . and they've never cut themselves. I've never thought about matches, although there are boxes of them all over and I've never thought to move them. Maybe I should.

Do you allow your children to be hit/pushed/hurt by older or other children without interfering?

Is this in the book? Why do people keep telling me it is, but I don't remember that part at all. If anyone can tell me what page it's on, I'd love to know. It seems like the parents of kids who hit, pinch and bite remember this part of the book, but I don't.

I know several of you touched on the hitting thing. I agree there is a difference between siblings and kids in a playgroup. I guess for me it goes back to the unfortunate reality that there are many children whose continuums are out of whack due to the way they were parented as infants

So, do you think this is the cause? What about kids that were "AP" parented? I can't find any good information of what the causes of this are. I'd **really** love to know what other people think, or have read.

MisfitMama

[tea olive]

my kids can put plugs in the sockets. some are childproofed so i don't have to monitor all of them. they are not allowed to poke them with anything else, even wave a crayon near them. it has taken little effort actually. and the fascination goes away.

i have some plastic lettuce knives they can use on soft things. this depends on my energy as well. my 2nd was very determined to use knives and cut himself because he was using a dull paring knife on a large carrot. not the right tool. depends on their motor skills and i have to feel very open. which is hit or miss, i was raised to stay out of the kitchen. my baby ruby has used a kinfe the most because she is skilled at finding them and likes the kitchen best. she also as a gentle touch and control that the boys don't have. still, it is rare, but i'm not opposed to it. but i know i have to be feeling positive and the knife has to be sharp and i assist them with what they have in that i at least provide them with what to cut.

my kids tend to destroy everything else before themselves. matches and lighters are too hard for them. they are very careful with fire in general though, candles and outside fires. i also have a gas stove so the fire is apparent. i do not bat the hands away from the flames, but make then get out of the kitchen if there is frying or opening oven door or sputtering grits. they are better with the obvious.

what is the question about hitting, exactly? i don't know if it is in the book specifically. i believe expressing ourselves physically is an animal behaviour which we work to civilize towards talking. some kids express themselves more externally than others. some kids are more frustrated than others. there are different levels of physical touch and in our adult western world touch means either love or violence or sex and very little inbetween. like my kids can be pushing each other and laughing and it is okay. i have specific instances i ask them to respect each other's bodies, but they are rough in general. maybe it is genetic. me and dh are rougher than some other people. (i remember that all the midwives i have encountered tend to be rough or extremely gentle) after i had ruby and i was in the midst of nursing two i realized that i could, and it was okay to grab each of them by the arm and lift them since i have only two arms. it means nothing except practicality and they hold their body and arms a certain way to make this easy. but it horrifies some people.

[MisfitMama]

Casina,

*My* question about hitting is, does it say anywhere in the book that it's "continuum correct" (or whatever) to let kids duke it out?

I don't have my book right now - it's on loan as usual! But I've been told by a couple of TCC readers that my son needs to "learn to fight for himself" when he is attacked by another baby. But as I recall, JL says in the book that when the Yequana children are hit or whatever, they "act like a tree branch hit them."

So. . . either I'm nuts, or someone else is.

MisfitMama

[tea olive]

i don't remember any mention about fighting in the book, so you remember more.

i think if my family had an intact village where we knew our place in the world physically and economically and knew every child and everyone parented the same and had no hang ups etcetera et cetera there would be possibly no hitting.

we live in a much stressful and weird life now. there are good points. there are bad points.

i don't know about your child "learning to fight". how is one supposed to develop skills for a few and far occurence not at home/in your village? i guess i'm wondering about the details.

allowing the kids to duke it out physically or verbally is something i have done but it requires total trust with the world and absolute confidence in the children. which i can do, and i'm working on increasing that percentage, but a week like this past one has seen very little of my enlightenment habit. then there's absolutely ignoring them which does work sometimes. my kids get along much better when i'm not in the midst of things. i don't think vying for mamma's attention is supposed to be a round the clock thing either, in the ideal continuum. but then i don't think the yequanas have rooms like in my own home where the loudness can get to me as well.

that's why the book is so celebrated, right? that we have so many fine point interpretations.
but my decisions concerning hitting are not just about tcc, though i'm sure it is an influence.

[morsan]

casina- That some children hit other children at random in public, isn't any more odd than any other "negative" behaviour. Ds did this last weekend when we went to Ashland, and sure it hurts and is very frustrating, but I don't think he's a freak. I don't agree that this sort of expression is a stronger cry for attention than other, more subtle behaviours. Ds had been taking in a lot of negative energy from another new friend of his and after a couple of weeks of that, he turned his built-up rage onto any other seeeminlgy "weaker" child. Part of the problem was also my reaction to his hitting other children.