Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 52

[Devaya]

Thank you so much everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. It's given me a lot to think about, and I feel relieved that really, I'm still on the right track. I'm the kind of person who can cling on to 'theories' and ideals a bit too much though, so I think a bit of balance with my own intuition is called for, as you pointed out, zansmama.

Periwinkle, a lot of the things you mention in your list, we do all the time, which made me feel loads better! Books, books, and more books definitely feature a lot, and reading is such a big part of my life, I can see DS is already picking that up and loves books. I try to expose him to a lot of free community events in our city (luckily, our city is great for that kind of thing), and older children, he loves seeing what they get up to. As it's summer now we're mainly just going to the park a lot, which in a way is a very child-centred place but he's getting a lot out of trying new things and improving his confidence with a balance, climbing etc. I try to provide a balance for his physical and intellectual skills.

It's good to be reminded that CC is something that we can apply in our urban lives - sometimes I feel bad for not being a 'bushcraft' kind of person DS has been helping out in the garden (weeding, watering etc) and he loves it!

[sweetpeppers]

Even in the tribes she talked about, adults still sometimes played with children, and she says that they were nursed whenever they wanted it. Children weren't made to work ever. They helped when they wanted to, and played the rest of the time. I disagree that watching us take care of the house and do every day things is not go to stimulate intellectual development. Children copy our behavior in their play. I do play with him sometimes when he needs it (he is an only child), but I think my focus stays mostly on adult things. The hardest part about CC is not having more children around for him to play with. I'm a nanny, so that helps with him being an only child.

[riomidwife]

Originally Posted by sweetpeppers

And I wanted to ask (delicately, as to not offend) if anyone was skeptical (in light of the continuum concept) about the huge number of "high-needs" children that seem to be popping up (particularly in AP-circles).

Originally Posted by zansmama

YES!!!!
It drives me INSANE!
My mom was actually really into labeling kids' "problems", and I am really, really sick of it. There is SO much of it here in Berkeley that I could scream.
Granted, a few kids clearly need a little extra_ whatever. but for the most part, it's so clear to me that they are just so far out of their continuum, and that's where any issues are originating. Poor human race.

I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.

[zansmama]

Originally Posted by riomidwife

I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.

Okay, i hear you... it's true, there is some reality to these things...
I guess it's the major over-diagonising around me that's driving me nuts...

[momofmine]

Well, I read CC when I was pregnant with my first, and it resonated with me so much, but the reality is that my life has been incredibly child-centered and I don't know how to put a lot of the CC philosophy into my real, everyday world. I don't live in a village, my kids don't have other kids to run around with outside of the hut, they don't have an opportunity to participate in our income-generating work, and my kids needs tons of attention. I mean, they just need me all day long. I think in the context of a community it would be different because they would be getting that interaction with a whole mix of people. But in our reality, we live in an isolated nuclear family. Yes, we do tons of things outside of the home, and we have lots of interactions with other people. But when it comes down to it, we live in a house, by ourselves, and don't share life with anyone else, not in the intimate and interdependent way that the indigenous cultures described in that book do.

So, how do you put it into practice now? My kids are 5 and 10, and they crave and need this. I find that I do too, I believe we are designed this way, to need to interact among our species and to have a true sense of meaningful work. But I'm just really struggling with making that reality in 2009 middle-class America.

[Calm]

I was going to start a thread but since I had a notification from this thread in my CP I thought it might be a good place to put my question.

My son has been brought up as close to biologically appropriate as possible for a suburban baby (who is now 16 months). And now likes to be down and exploring a lot. However, he also still likes to be held - a lot. The problem is, he treats me like a horse; if I stop moving, he kicks and whines a bit (on my back in the ergo usually, because I get sore if he is on one hip for too long). Which is inconvenient if I'm doing dishes or cooking or anything that requires me to stand still.

I've tried dancing on the spot, music and all kinds of things, but they don't last long, if at all. I believe it is based in the biological drive to learn, and in a natural setting I would be moving more, and he would be passed around more and see more, etc. But I can't simulate that, not to a natural extent even though he is passed around family I live with quite a bit (I live with my mother and two brothers and my husband and daughter).

I'm not sure what to do but my house is a mess because I get nothing done. He is too needy for me to get anything done. I basically have to sit and hold him or go out of the house and move about. Most house work does not require much moving, at least, not in a change of scene kind of way.

I think about natural cultures and although I too see flaws in the CC, I also think there are many valid points and he and I are both frustrated with the limitations of western life on fulfilling them.

Anyone dealt with this? What do you do with a disgruntled toddler who wants to be held (or is just beside himself with unhappiness) but wants you to run a marathon or is again, quite unhappy (although not as unhappy as he is when he wants to be held). I've ended up just getting on with my day, and he eventually adapts or wants to get down (and then whines because he is down). If I hold him on my hip, he is happiest, never needs me to move about. But I can't do that for more than ten minutes every hour or more. It's a very trapped kind of feeling. DH bought a new back carrier, one of those structured ones where they sit up high, we are hoping a better view will sort him out.

CC lead me to believe that they don't need a view, that they just want to be held. Well, that turned out to be a load of hogwash.


OFF TOPIC
By the way, there is basically only one new chronic disease faced by humanity and it encompasses all the modern issues from ADHD, autism right through to the increases in cancer and autoimmune disease and that is fungus. They are all fungal. This is because the antibiotics introduced earlier in the 1900's started to wipe out our necessary bacteria. Then doctors over prescribed antibiotics and now we have a plague of fungus in a large chunk of our population, including newborns who are often exposed to yeast in the hospital or given antibiotics themselves via breastmilk. This causes dysbiosis from birth, resulting in allergies and mental issues. No matter WHAT you do, if you don't correct the dysbiosis and the terrain of the body, it will remain, ie, "chronic disease". The body has 10 times MORE bacteria cells than human cells. We are 90% bacteria and only 10% human. When you consider antibiotics from that standpoint, what exactly are we killing when we use them? Bacteria is not to be underestimated, and if you have more fungus than bacteria, or your child does, you will pay a heavy price. My page, still unfinished, for more info.

ETA - before someone brings it up, I'll preempt it, antibiotics are not the only reason for dysbiosis. It is the biggest one, however. Some homebirthed babies who are breastfed also have allergies although there are very few of them in comparison to c-section and hospital birthed allergy babies. This is due to the mother's terrain, which was compromised during the pregnancy and birth. Yeast is also found in breastmilk. So if you choose to correct the imbalance, you need to correct yourself also if you breastfeed.

[D'sMama]

Calm, have you tried a Scootababy carrier? It's a hip carrier with a padded buckle waist and a fleece shoulder that I've found really spreads the weight well so I can carry DS on my hip for a long time - much longer than when he's in a RS. I love it and find myself reaching for it more than any of my other carriers, unless he needs a nap.

[Calm]

Thanks D's Mama. I just googled them and I had no idea such a thing existed. It looks comfy. Can't get them here (Australia - tried the links, ebay, etc) and although I could get one sent from overseas, we just spent any carrier budget on this new back thingy from the UK. I might try to make something with a wrap. I'll youtube hip wraps or something.

I guess there are no other creative ideas on this. I was wondering if I had overlooked something in how to deal with stone age babies in a modern lifestyle. I was meant to be out on my farm by now, but our plans were changed (we didn't want them to be, long story). So now I'm still stuck out here in suburbia. I'm making the best of it, but I wonder how we are supposed to do right by our children in these circumstances. How are other parents arranging things to fit their children's "stone age" needs?

See, I could only ask that on MDC, perhaps even only on this thread, and have any hope of being understood what I'm trying to achieve.

[jennchsm]

Calm, my reading of CC is that the "in-arms" period lasts until the baby starts crawling. After that, the baby spends a lot of time on his own exploring and learning to become part of the family/community. I have a 16mo son as well (and also live in an isolated suburban home), and I rarely wear him in the house any more. He will go through phases during which he needs to be held and cuddled and interacted with more than other times, and they usually turn out to be related to teething or something similar.

CC leans more toward a "get on with your life and let your child learn how to be part of it" philosophy, which is very different from the AP/UP approach where you invest heavily in giving your child lots of attention in the first few years. I'm personally trying to balance the two, and so far it seems like it's working for us. When my son tells me he really needs my attention, I stop what I'm doing and play with him, or cuddle him, or nurse him, whatever he seems to need. But I'll also occasionally distract him with a toy or a game or a song while trying to get something done, or will slow down the pace of the task and let him "help". It might be that I have a pretty easygoing kid, but it's working out so far.

One of the best purchases we made recently was a Learning Tower. It's basically a tower thing that brings toddlers to countertop height, and when I'm doing things in the kitchen, that's where DS wants to be. (He runs to it and says "up!" when I start working in the kitchen.) I can then give him a wooden spoon and a bowl, or a piece of something I'm cutting up so that he can "help". I move it to the sink when I'm washing dishes so he can splash in the water. He watches from a safe distance (often with a snack) while I'm cooking at the stove. The great thing about the tower is that it has given him a way to be involved in kitchen activities.

Similarly, I do as many household chores as I can on the floor where he can help, and help he does -- in his own way. He sorts and "folds" laundry, sweeps the kitchen floor, and so on. I stopped wearing him around the house when it became clear that just observing household activities was no longer enough for him. He wants to be included now, and for me THAT is at the heart of CC. When he gets bored of helping, he toddles off and finds something else to do. Sometimes his "help" sets me back a few minutes, but it's okay, because one day (I hope, LOL) it will actually be helpful!

I don't know if any of this is helpful to you, but I honestly can't imagine wearing my DS while trying to do housework! He wouldn't be happy, and neither would I. And I honestly don't think either CC or AP would say that's the best way to go at this age.

[D'sMama]

Originally Posted by jennchsm

CC leans more toward a "get on with your life and let your child learn how to be part of it" philosophy, which is very different from the AP/UP approach where you invest heavily in giving your child lots of attention in the first few years.

What is UP?

What does everyone else think about how AP and CC are related/contrasting? I never really considered them that different. I always thought of AP as simply meeting the child's needs, which in the beginning requires a lot of attention, but so does CC with the whole in-arms phase. I don't know.

[KBug]

My DD sounds similar. I let her sit on the counter while I cook or put her in the kitchen sink. I have to be really close to keep her safe but she likes to be more of a part of things and nibble on food or play with measuring spoons etc.

[jennchsm]

Sorry! UP is Unconditional Parenting. There is a thread around here somewhere focused on it.

[jennchsm]

Originally Posted by D'sMama

What does everyone else think about how AP and CC are related/contrasting? I never really considered them that different. I always thought of AP as simply meeting the child's needs, which in the beginning requires a lot of attention, but so does CC with the whole in-arms phase. I don't know.

I think I see them as different because that's how CC was presented to me - as an alternative to AP. In my local API group, some moms with toddlers and new babies were lamenting that they felt they weren't doing as good a job being AP with their little ones as they had with the older ones, and a few members told us about CC and how it offers a different perspective. I borrowed the book and read most of it, and the impression I had was that it's about incorporating your child into the continuum of your family's (or community's) life. The book goes into a lot of detail about how infants spend the first year or so of their lives observing, and then when they become mobile, gradually become involved in the work of the household (or community). There is almost a sense in which adults don't change their lives when they have children (the people described in the book don't have that luxury) and as a result the children are much more well-adjusted than the typical western child whose parents' world revolves around him.

Some of the parents in my API group talked about how they just wore their babies while they played with they older children, and that those children, despite not getting as much one-on-one attention as their older siblings, seemed to be generally happier and more easygoing.

I found that working some CC ideas into my parenting philosophy helped me relax and get more of the things I need done, without feeling like I was neglecting my son. As with all parenting philosophies, in the end you have to make choices that work best for your family. Unless you live on a commune or in an extended family situation, it would be really hard to be truly CC, IMO. :-)

[Calm]

Hi Jenn. That's what I expected also. However, my son walked at 9 months (which is apparently the expected age for constantly held babies) and his mobility didn't cramp his need to be held and still doesn't. He is a contradiction because he has been a frustrated unit since birth - held his head up at a week old and ever since has been the most determined person I've ever known. He has been SO frustrated! He wants to do do do, to be able to do it all and whines and cries a lot. The flip side is he is also a joyful person, intense, but joyful, just very easy to upset. Although he can hit the concrete head first and not bat an eyelid, he is upset by emotional things, frustrations, not pain. I have a daughter and many nieces, nephews, etc, I've seen how determination usually works and all babies are determined - but nothing like this.

YET, you'd think that would mean he would love being beside me at the kitchen bench, and for the first five, even ten minutes he does. Then he just wants to be held. He is a very affectionate person, and just puts his arms up for anyone and everyone even visitors (esp men). I'm lucky that I have brothers who live here and someone is always holding him, carrying him around the yard with one hand with a shovel or hose in the other. Put him down and it's pot luck - will he screech and puts his arms up straight away to be picked back up again or will he play.

For longer and longer periods he is happy to wander the yard or house, like for instance right now he is squatting on the dining table inspecting the salt shaker, aaaaand, he just threw it to the ground, testing gravity again I guess. It isn't constant constant like it was only 4 or so months ago. But I still find that I'm rushing everything between holds, and there is no way either my DH or I can do dinner solo. One of us has to be with DS or he is just wanders around whining, occasionally crying and that just triggers my guilt and need to stop everything and hold him. When involved in dinner prep he gets frustrated (again). He can't manipulate the things yet and knows he has been given the short end of the deal with his butter knife and soft veggies. I do give him many opportunities, they just don't last very long.

I find small jobs impossible. My daughter was easy peasy, I could even do bead work if I wanted when she was a toddler and she was methodical and compliant, it's just the way she was/is. Not with DS. If it's up, he reefs it down, if it is closed, he opens it (our oven is broken, we need to buy a new one). I can't do much of anything yet, maybe when he's a bit older. At this stage, it's just a joke and sometimes I play the game but sometimes, hey, I actually need to get that washing put away and it's strewn from one end of the house to the other. We have perspex on the tv so he doesn't smash it, we have a zen home because he just isn't like my daughter was. I find that I've become like other parents now, having to take certain things from him because he likes to throw them, or rip them apart. I've tried and tried to not intervene but it's actually dangerous not to, not to mention people have their belongings ruined.

Ok. There now. Glad I got that out. It hasn't been so easy with DS as it was with DD. I am enjoying the affection, that's the positive aspect of his physical needs. And like you, I couldn't have imagined still carrying him so much by this age, esp as he is heavy for his age. Yay me.

[riomidwife]

Originally Posted by Calm

However, my son walked at 9 months (which is apparently the expected age for constantly held babies)

Curious where you're getting this from? My understanding was that even among traditional hunter-gatherer cultures there is still much variation in the timing of crawling, walking, etc., with a strong genetic component.

My son was in-arms most of babyhood, with very occasionally hanging out on the floor. He did not begin crawling until 8 or 9 months, and began walking at 15 months, which is when his papa began walking. In my own personal experience I see a trend in larger babies walking later.

In related news, anyone see the piece on crawling in last month's Scientific American?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...be-unnecessary

[widemouthedfrog]

My dd was also a very up, down, needing to be held, needing to feel like we were doing something sort of baby. I bounced her on my back a lot. We went out for walks a lot. I also did a lot of active housework with her on my back until she was 35 lbs or so (though continued to wear her until 45 lbs on my back, now I sometimes do back or hip carries in a sling if required). She wanted to be in and see the action, so I think a view was great.

We loved our Ergo and Patapum toddler.

I am 5'9 and I have strong arms, though. I also go to the chiropractor a lot.

[Calm]

Curious where you're getting this from? My understanding was that even among traditional hunter-gatherer cultures there is still much variation in the timing of crawling, walking, etc., with a strong genetic component

Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pierce

The Vital Touch by Sharon Heller

Both books are, in my opinion, the two most important child/parent works in all the current available media.

Magical Child is more of a classic, as it was written in the 70's or 80's I believe, but has extensive cross cultural studies and does not attempt to glamorise any of them but gives them warts and all. The studies showed babies from the same culture will walk early or "late" (eg, western expectations of around 13 months) depending on how they are treated. Not only does it affect walking, but all milestones. There are many theories as to why, such as it taking much more muscle strength to hold on than it does to flop around on the floor - the place most western babies find themselves most of the time. My favorite theory being that the pressure is off emotionally so they can focus on development - which is the premise of Magical Child really. Taking the pressure off our children and trusting their intrinsic drive to learn. It is a very text-book type of read, not an easy one by any stretch but very worth it.

The Vital Touch goes further than the CC, it does more cultures and looks at the wide variety of long term effects. I loved this book. She explores, via science and logic AND the more subjective methods, developmental issues and long range emotional impacts.

CC is like an introduction to anthropology and parenting. These go a lot further.

My son was born almost 9lbs, was 20lbs by 6 months and slowed down from then on. He is very strong, as was my daughter. I think if "larger" means "fatter", perhaps they would walk a bit later. In those where larger means stronger - larger bones and muscles - then it wouldn't necessarily result in later physical things.

I think there is much more to it than in-arms. Hence why it is important to me to look further than mainstream AP stuff like CC (although it was the most important read I ever did, as it was my first and it really shook me up!). How important is it for the baby to crawl his own way to the breast? How important is it to stay constantly connected to actual living skin tissue (which is a major difference between our in-arms culture and the in-arms of amazonian and african cultures), how important are the many many differences we have from the infant stage of the most basically natural cultures? Dunno. But I want to. And the more I learn, the more I see that we have only scratched the surface of things.

I have found some African cultures have amazing babies and children (and adults!). Very VERY quick to reach milestones and peaceful people. One culture stops this nurturing at the age of four when the child is ripped from his mother and thrust into society (never allowed to talk to mom again, and she has to turn her back on him and ignore him) and the child's development retards completely, it just stops and some kids actually die. So, from an amazing, forward, peaceful start they completely F^$^% it up!

Anyway, some great reads out there, I found some common threads and find it works with my own kids. And occasionally, there's no commonality and I find myself holding them until they reach high school graduation. Sigh.


Joke.

[riomidwife]

Cool. I have read Magical Child, but it has been a long time. I'll look for the other one too.

In comparing baby-wearing cultures I think it would be nearly impossible to establish norms re: age at onset of walking because on account of all the variables you would have to tease out. You'd have to compare enough hunter-gatherer and other baby-wearing cultures to be able to tease out confounding factors like disease, diet, weight, structure of childcare, time spent in arms, etc. Baby-wearing aside, it makes sense that babies in indigenous and/or hunter-gatherer groups in Africa would walk towards the early end of the spectrum because their birthweight on average is so much lower than white western babies, and their lifestyle is far more active and mobile than ours. I'll ask my husband what he has observed in the baby-wearing H/G groups he has worked in.

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by riomidwife

I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.

And the thing that affects my son.....anything with corn syrup in it. HFCS, normal corn syrup, even corn syrup solids.

My friend has a friend with 3 girls, and all of them have to eat a gluten free and corn free diet, b/c it causes symptoms of ADHD...my guy can have corn and home-made popcorn, and even cornstarch, but NOT when corn is turned into syrup. He has symptoms of ADHD and even autism when he eats things like that, and they are in SO MANY THINGS that you have to read every single ingredient, EVERY SINGLE TIME you eat something. Kit Kats were safe. Then I read a Kit Kat label and suddenly it had corn syrup solids in it! Not safe anymore!


Calm...while reading your posts, I had a flash of you putting posters and pictures all over your walls, both at his walking eye level and also at his eye level when he's on your back in the carrier. Like...maybe he wants to be held AND have some interesting views...DS didn't mind standing at the sink on my back b/c we had a big window with a gorgeous blossoming tree right there. But if I turned around to the stove, it was over, there was no view for him. That's not advice, just something that popped into my head as I read.

I never babyproofed, but I DS-proofed. I wasn't going to play games with the things he was interested in that I couldn't deal with him being into. The CC people might have trusted their kids' vision to not go over the edge into the ravine, but my kid fell off the bed while awake and tried to fall off other things, so he wasn't THOSE kids.

DS wanted to be with me more than, say, my friends' kids wanted to be with them...I just did it to the best of my ability. When he was still napping, I would do the work I could while he was asleep.

He wasn't a "useful member" of the society of our house until he was around 4...until then he, as you described yours, wanted to open what was closed, close what was opened, and he HATES that he still isn't allowed to use proper knives (he's 5).

I wasn't able to be exactly how I wanted to be, just like I wasn't really able to do EC, but he's turning out to be pretty cool (just like he initiated potty learning at 18 months and the EC stuff I'd read about helped me tremendously) anyway.

From knowledge of self and my brother, I know very well how one kid can be so different from the other! I never napped, for instance, and followed my mom around the house saying "mama, mama, mama, mama" until she was tearing out her hair...my younger brother, however, was perfect in her eyes (and to the eyes of the world) until he was in college and moved in with his girlfriend much to my mom's chagrin.

[Calm]

Calm...while reading your posts, I had a flash of you putting posters and pictures all over your walls, both at his walking eye level and also at his eye level when he's on your back in the carrier. Like...maybe he wants to be held AND have some interesting views...DS didn't mind standing at the sink on my back b/c we had a big window with a gorgeous blossoming tree right there. But if I turned around to the stove, it was over, there was no view for him. That's not advice, just something that popped into my head as I read.

Great idea! The kitchen is kind of covered from a-hole to z but we'll have a look, we should be able to do something. Yesterday while doing dishes he was peeping slightly backwards and under to the TV DD was watching. He was happy, so it really is how much he has to see.

Regarding corn syrup, does he have reactions to any other sugar based product, or just the corn? Corn and peanuts have an abnormally high percentage of aflatoxins and fungal growth. if you google it on corn and peanuts, you'll be shocked at just what is in them. NEVER EVER eat peanut butter (shudder). Science is looking at the fungus in them. I have a list here of the fungus found in both, hold on...

acremonium siricium
aspergillus (4 types)
penicilliums (3 types)
trichoderma harzianum
chaetomium (3 types)

And more, about 25 of them. It is like taking an antibiotic every time you eat corn or peanuts. It just messes up your microorganisms in the gut and elsewhere.

I'm successfully treating allergies and behavioural problems as are many other healers by treating it as fungus. People are not meant to avoid foods like that, it isn't a "genetic" thing, it is a gut problem, and is treatable. If corn itself doesn't cause issues, it could be how the corn is manufactured into corn syrup, or it could just be that it is sugar. They have done studies where they have tested the gut flora of people and given some people sugar and had a control group. the people given sugar had a massive growth of yeast in their gut lining, with absolutely no other change to their diet.

Sugar is the modern killer. Fungus is the modern chronic disease. Both go together perfectly. Dairy is also a MASSIVE problem for gut flora. Humans, all mammals actually, should not eat dairy after the age of about four as we stop producing lactase, the enzyme to break it down. We certainly were never meant to ingest the milk of another species. Besides being laden with pathogens and fungus, it wreaks havok in our guts and most kids with allergies will first and foremost get it to dairy. Dairy will also trigger behavioural issues, like sugar will. It all revolves around fungus and the toxins/chems they produce.

Anyway, I can't walk past these things and not say anything, not when kids are involved.