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Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 9

post #161 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisfitMama
I have been thinking a lot about this, and I remembered that children in daycare are always found to be more aggressive, overall. So I am working on a theory that maybe to "cure" a "violent" child, one could give them a lot more body contact. What do you think?
I'm the mom of a toddler in day care so the aggression thing is really starting to emerge. What I am seeing is that children REALLY pick up on our reactions. So, when a normal babe "hits" in our culture, we all SWOOP in to stop the agression. OK - not everyone, but the "good" mothers do. And we tend to try and stop this immediately, regardless of how much force is used.

I think perhaps the Yequana don't react quite so stongly to the normal toddler/babe urges to poke, swat and hit. This is the part in the book where she says they act like a tree branch hit them when someone hits. What I've noticed is that my DD reacts very poorly when another child swats at her - like she starts screaming, even if it didn't hurt. I think this is a 'learned' reaction - because day care, understandably, spends a lot of energy getting kids to "stop" hitting. I think it almost makes it worse. There's a dynamic there that both children know that hitting will result in more attention paid to both of them. I think if we could ignore some of the early hitting/swatting instead of trying to correct it, it might go away and we wouldn't teach toddlers to have such strong reactions to being hit/swatted.

Am I making any sense?
post #162 of 1092
Ellien, I think you're making a lot of sense. It's like when a child falls, and you SWOOP in to make sure they're ok, and you fuss over them, then they're going to cry if they fall, because they almost think that's the reaction they "should" have. But if you just go "oopsie!", then they're more likely to bounce back and continue playing.

I noticed that my reaction had a dramatic affect on my friend's toddler. Once, we were in her house, and she started patting my boobs. It didn't hurt, and I didn't mind. So I smiled, and sort of talked to her. But her mom said, "You shouldn't do that to anyone but mommy." And I realized that even though I didn't mind, others likely would. So, the next time I saw her, she tried to do it again, I ignored her, and just moved her hands away, while continuing the conversation I was having. She got the message not to do that, and I never actually had to speak to her. Sort of like moving the tree branch.

Tonight, we were at the house of my friend and her dd again, and everyone there was paying so much attention to her. I mean, she was like the focus of the evening. I understand, because the people who were there were all childless, and she's the only child in our lil group of friends, and they don't see her a whole lot. But I felt like she was more of a novelty than a child of our friend. I almost felt like because I wasn't paying that much attention to her, that I must seem like I don't like her, or don't like kids or something, and that can't be further from the truth. I love her like she was one of my own. But I don't think she should have gotten all the attention the whole evening. (She's 3, btw.)
post #163 of 1092
I just ordered OBOurselves with my holiday gift cert Should be here soon.

I do also feel a keen sense of loss that I dont have a tribe to share work and babyrearing and community with. Heck, I dont even have very many friends with babies, let alone ones that want to share chores.

I just have one child, and very often we simply have nothing to do at times during the day. We live in a condo in the city, and it can be very isolating, especially in bad weather. Our activities are going to LLL mtgs, AP groups, playgroups, etc, but not very CC in nature. Its kids all amok and mommys grabbing hands and solving toy scuffles. Even if I have a friend over with her child, its more like coffee and visiting than "doing" anything.

OH, and DH gets very stressed about DD doing anything! He is constantly hovering, rescuing, and saying Careful Careful (but worse, in a baby voice, and he actually says Tareful, but I digress) Guess what, when she slips (probably because she is paying more attention to him cajoling her than to where her foot is) she cries and he woefully says Sorry Sorry... during the day she might stumble or plop down heavily, but no tears. She looks at me, and I just look back, trying not to convey any emotion but observing, and she just goes on.

Not to say she never cries over a tumble around me, but she doesnt do it because I expect her to react that way.

must go to sleep now, but will keep checking in on this thread
post #164 of 1092
I agree. Kids pick up on the way we react to different situations. When my 3yo would do something that hurt my 10mo I would quickly pick her (the baby) up and give her so much attention even if she wasn't "that" hurt. I would do this because I wanted my 3yo to learn empathy. But what happend was that the baby learned to cry louder, much much louder and my 3yo learned to bump her 'own' head and cry like a baby for attention.

Now I hold back more. If one of them is crying or hurt I just say something like "it's ok, don't worry you'll feel better soon". They have both changed in the way they react. The baby sometimes gets bumped or squeezed (accidentaly) by her sister but she ends up laughing or she'll just let out a quick cry, as if she said "OUCH" and then she keeps on playing. And my 3yo has stopped bumping her head for attention. She doesn't 'crave' for it anymore because she doesn't see her lil' sister getting it either...does that make scense?


Change of subject- I would like to see the topic about "Babies mouthing small objects" discussed among experienced CC parents. How did you deal with trust? When did you know your child was ready to be trusted with those small objects? Was it 'anything goes' or where certain objects 'no-no's?
post #165 of 1092
My kid was probably a little older than 6 months when I discovered CC. I let her mouth just about anything after 12 months age. Before that I was just too nervous. I've heard that breastfed babies have better choking/gag reflexes.

I've had two incidences - in one case she has a small little toy and my cousin was trying to get it out of her mouth. The cousin ended up jamming it in there between her teeth and the roof of her mouth, so her mouth was stuck open. Cousin kept trying to finger sweep it out, whereas I wasn't worried. DD was about 18 months old when that happened. Then a week ago, DD got something else wedged in there and I was able to remove it.

Now I did discourage her from putting inappropriate things in her mouth. Like one time she kept putting small rocks in there. And I kept saying not in the mouth. It was funny though because at first she was looking up at my when she put a pebble in. But I kept saying no, so then she stopped looking up with the rock and kept her head down. Well, I thought she had stopped putting pebbles in her mouth. A few minutes later she had a mouth full and I told her to spit them out.

Now at 20 months I don't restrict anything except my VERY sharp scissors which have given me a bleeding cut and VERY sharp very large knives. My DD really likes my sewing pins with the colored heads. She's poked herself with them, but only in the last month. Before that she was really very ginger with them. Once she tried to put them in her mouth, but I told her not to.

You know your own kid though. You need to follow your instincts, and remember that they'll do what you expect them to. I don't think there's one right answer here.
post #166 of 1092
sometimes it takes some training on the parent's part, for peace of mind. when i had one newborn and a 2.5, i observed a one year old girl walking around with marbles in her mouth. i will say now that i'm definitely of the opinion that girls have different talents from boys. but that encouraged me to not worry about it for my 2nd. i would give him smaller and smaller things and observe him with them. it's pretty hard for anyone to swallow a penny, though i did worry more about the older one running into him a bit. after a certain point it was a real relief to not worry about swallowing a choking at all, compared to watching each object. with #3, i hardly paid attention. i tend to just watch for long and sharp objects. i'm of the opinion that it is important that i allow them to learn to live in their body with the least amount of my interference. it feels wrong to swallow hard objects, and i have faith in that.
post #167 of 1092
nak
as far as stuff in the mouth-if it's not toxic, very sharp or electronic it's all systems go. we camped w/ exs-mil and she was horrified that dd had a rock in her mouth and ran up to her-cigarette and all to take it away from her-with the hand she had her cig. in . i was more worried about the chemicals on xmil hands (after the concern of her burning dd) then the stone!
i made the mistake of wanting to show dd the wood stove was hot so i faked getting burned and said ouch-then it became a game. i even knew better...if we cry wolf on things of importance-don't think they don't know. it's important to be authentic.
it's by our care (or lack of) that they learn.
i'm having issues with dh too. i let dd play on top of the table. she's careful and likes to sit there when i'm writing. she has some paper pencils/pens/crayons. he flips each time he sees her up there and makes a big deal about her getting hurt and get down right now....so he's my big challenge right now.
post #168 of 1092
Okay, one more question. Mouthing objects is one thing, but what about food? Objects usually stay in one piece but food doesn't. One of dd2's first foods were whole bananas. Of course I was a nervous reck, and still am when I give her a banana to eat. She does pretty well, she sort of sucks on it and scrapes it with her teeth but if I see her take a big chunk out of it I usually panic. I am afraid that it will slip into her throat so I sort of try to hold back and trust her but I usually end up sticking my finger in to mash it up a little.

So how do you deal with foods that come apart into slippery chunky pieces?
post #169 of 1092

Hmmmm....

Can a child truly choke on a chunk of banana? Isn't it too mushy and slippery to get lodged in the throat for long?
post #170 of 1092
I mushed foods when DD was young say 8mos-15 months.

After that age I started giving her more foods - even things like popcorn, which is supposed to be a choking hazard. Wasn't a problem for us. She had a piece of pork stuck in her throat once around 10 months old. She kept "hocking" it, so I finger swept it out of her mouth and gave her smaller chunks. My dad actually noticed that it was too big for her to eat. But boy she howled when we "stole" the food right out of her mouth. Mom and I empathsized a LOT. " oh you didn't like that did you?" "i was getting meat juices and they took the food right out of my mouth."

There's no one answer here. I can't tell you NOT to worry about it because children apparently do die from having hotdogs stuck in their throat. But I can tell you to follow your instincts and watch your child, without reading too many "parenting" books.
post #171 of 1092
So....why wouldn't you just mash up the banana?

I have a friend who doesn't use a baby-food grinder, but will simply chew some food then give it to her baby.

Talk about continuum! Talk about being Stone Age!

I'm not speaking from experience because we just don't see the need to feed DS solids (he shows as much interest in the cat as he does foods, and we certainly aren't feeding him the cat), but I don't know why you wouldn't just squish up the banana. I'm not seeing what's non-continuum about mushy food.
post #172 of 1092
okay I know that I sort of take things a little further than most people sometimes... but the thing about not using mashed bananas is this thought: "baby monkeys don't get their bananas mashed up by their mamma monkeys and they learn to eat bananas without anyone instructing them".

So I came up with the idea of feeding my baby only things things that she would be capable of eating on her own; in it's natural form. I keep seeing children with digestive problems, like constipation or children who gag at foods with texture and I think that maybe it has to do with the way we feed them from the begining. Maybe we take foods that are ment to be eaten with a full set of teeth and we puree them in order to feed them to our babies. Maybe babies bodies only need what babies can handle feeding theirselves, kwim? Oh, then they get used to only the liquified version of things and when you try to give them something heartier they either spit it out, choke on it or they gag.

That's why I feed my 10mo whole bananas, whole star fruit, I nurse her, I give her water, avocados, carrots to suck and chew on (although I do take the tips off). This is my understanding of what a natural diet should be like. And I intoduce new foods acording to how well she could eat them without me having to process them in any way.

And when I think of bananas vs hotdogs (natural vs man made) they are both very different. I don't know how much of my concerns about her eating bananas are actually triggered by my own instinct or by cultural influence. But that's a whole new CC topic, isn't it?



Okay wake up! I'll stop now.
post #173 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakies
"baby monkeys don't get their bananas mashed up by their mamma monkeys and they learn to eat bananas without anyone instructing them".
Are we sure they don't though? I'm not really sure, but mightn't a baby monkey steal food right out of it's mama's mouhth - all chewed up? Or mightn't the mama give the baby partially chewed food? I just don't know. I know some birds regurgitate the food for their young.

Interesting observation on the texture aversion and digestive issues there. Have you seen any of the work by Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride? She's an MD/Nutritionist in England who believes a lot of Autism Spectrum disorder children suffer from gut problems - wrong flora that can't make the right vitamins.
post #174 of 1092
Ellien C- You have a point there about the monkey eating thing. I could picture a baby monkey picking food out of his mothers mouth or picking up whatever has fallen out. Thanks for the eye opener... I guess I will have to do some research.

Never heard of Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride, sounds interesting
post #175 of 1092
First, having just finished reading Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small, I want to say, I LOVED it. It helped me put TCC in perspective. Well, reading that, and learning from the discussions here and on the TCC mail group. I read TCC for the first time a couple months ago, and promptly lent out my copy. Not having it in front of me, I cant go check exactly what JL said about small infants eating, but here are some conclusions I have come to:

I cannot do exactly as Yequana do, because I am not Yequana. I wasnt brought up with their expectations, their sensibilities, a tribe, a tribe mentality, no one role modelled Yequana life for me. Furthermore, I have been brought up in a white, middle class, middle america, Western culture. Myself and my baby(s) will have to determine our values and behaviours by integrating what the culture at large do and what is modelled in our home.

Reading about parenting and child treatment across cultures and times in OBO made me recognize the essential truth about what babies biologically expect and need to thrive. Pretty much universally this boils down to cosleeping, breastfeeding in terms of years, almost constant touch with primary caretaker or very committed team of caretakers with communal expectations.

Things that are discussed in TCC about danger, work, non coercion, etc, are behavioral expectations and not biological, and are different depending on the goals and lives of the community. Even among "traditional", or Non Western, or cultures living without modern technology. Its hard to say which is "best" or even "better". It really depends on any culture or group adapting for survival.

At any rate:

Re: the eating thing: There is evidence that monkeys eat partially masticated food from their mothers. Also, there is a people called the Ache in Paraguay who supplement breastmilk with insect larvae. Yequana subsist mostly on manioc and cassava, as I recall. (must get book back!) And they grow, harvest and process all their own food. If I were to be really CC, I guess I would at the very least have my own garden and not have organic produce delivered to me from a local farm. :LOL

As for my 10 mo old, she is just now showing any interest in solids, but she refuses anything on a spoon, and would prefer to nibble off whatever I am eating, sandwich, pizza, etc. She will pick up small bits of food off her tray to try and eat. I see my job as to provide her with manageable sizes of regular food, and if she wants to consume it, fine. If not, fine. I dont see why a CC mother would not break off a smaller piece of banana for her child to try, rather than give a whole fruit. On the other hand, a CC baby/child would have a dozen other child modelling eating behaviours for them all the time, and it might be more likely they would manage a large fruit if thats what the norm is.

We just cant know for sure, so I just go by my instinct. If your instinct is to be a nervous wreck about giving a chokeable item, then dont do it, even if your instinct may be "tainted" by your nonCC culture. Instinct is instinct. IMHO.
post #176 of 1092

I met Her

I Met the author at a Ca midwifery conference in 2000. She was brilliant,
I remember a crawling baby crawled up to her near the stage when she was giving her talk and she carefully grabbed the baby by the arm and raised her up off the ground ( baby was interested and content) I guess she was trying to
show how much babies were like monkeys and were very durable. She was the original AP movement before Dr Sears coined this, in her view stole her coin.
We follow this method for the most part. I wish I did live in a tribe and a community in which I could live without all of the distractions of the tech society!
Anyone want to come start a commune in Northern Ca? Ha!
post #177 of 1092
Interesting re: the eating thing. I agree to a large extent that the overly pureed texture of foods is not a good idea,on the other hand, monkeys are a lot more capable than human infants (another OBO reference).

I have been facinated by the development of dd and ds' ability to eat and interest in food in correlation with their development of teeth. As soon as they had a few teeth, they seemed to handle lumpier bites and chunks well. Then with the appearance of their full set of molars, they have been eating nuts whole (e.g, pecans which arevery hard to chew) and larger chunks of meat. They now eat almost entirely what we do. I always hated the idea of making separate meals for everyone in the family and I do think there's good continuum evidence that this just isn't done, although there is evidence that infants do get mashed or masticated food in most cultures.

Interesting stuff!
post #178 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle
....monkeys are a lot more capable than human infants (another OBO reference).
Read Elaine Morgan: Descent of the Child for more on that. It's out of print but availble from Amazon from the used book vendors.
post #179 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by nankilicious
I cannot do exactly as Yequana do, because I am not Yequana. I wasnt brought up with their expectations, their sensibilities, a tribe, a tribe mentality, no one role modelled Yequana life for me. Furthermore, I have been brought up in a white, middle class, middle america, Western culture. Myself and my baby(s) will have to determine our values and behaviours by integrating what the culture at large do and what is modelled in our home.

****
Things that are discussed in TCC about danger, work, non coercion, etc, are behavioral expectations and not biological, and are different depending on the goals and lives of the community. Even among "traditional", or Non Western, or cultures living without modern technology. Its hard to say which is "best" or even "better". It really depends on any culture or group adapting for survival.
This reminded me of a thought I had the other week.

Background: My 7 month old is naturally (we don't have walkers or exersaucers or anything like that) extremely mobile; just last night he started flirting with standing alone. He pulls himself up on the couch, the walls, the table, and our legs. Also any boxes we might have around. Those boxes aren't necessarily heavy enough to "stand still" while he pulls up, but he has learned to go slow and instinctively push down on those objects as he stands (whereas he does it differently when using the couch).

Anyway, he improves every day and I don't remember how proficient he was when I had these thoughts, but it was likely he wasn't as good at stabilizing the non-stable items at the time.

Anyway, as I quelled my urge to say "don't fall!" as he pulled up on a box and tried to figure out a positive way to say something (like in the tub yesterday rather than saying "don't fall over while I wash your hair" I said "in the bathtub, babies sit up, we take baths sitting up" as a way of teaching him what I expect from him), I realized if we *were* in the jungle, he'd be pulling up on a tree. Or a stump. (or a leg, OK. ) Something stable and rooted. Not a box sitting there to "hide" papers or whatever.

And that's likely why we want to say "don't fall!" If it were a tree, the tree probably isn't going to move while a 20 pound baby is practicing standing, but a box or a table just might.

That's all. Just a little thought.
post #180 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollyeilis
Anyway, as I quelled my urge to say "don't fall!" as he pulled up on a box and tried to figure out a positive way to say something (like in the tub yesterday rather than saying "don't fall over while I wash your hair" I said "in the bathtub, babies sit up, we take baths sitting up" as a way of teaching him what I expect from him), I realized if we *were* in the jungle, he'd be pulling up on a tree. Or a stump. (or a leg, OK. ) Something stable and rooted. Not a box sitting there to "hide" papers or whatever.

And that's likely why we want to say "don't fall!" If it were a tree, the tree probably isn't going to move while a 20 pound baby is practicing standing, but a box or a table just might.

That's all. Just a little thought.
That is a good point. There are just too many differences between the Yequana and my society to just do what they do. I take what I can, and apply it to my life.

I also say to my DH that if babies were not supposed to fall down, then they wouldnt be so short and low to the ground
:LOL They dont get hurt in the same way that I might if I toppled over. In regards to the earlier post about small objects..well, I have tried to reduce the kind of clutter an small potentially dangerous non-necessary items in my home. But babies are hardwired to put things in their mouths. Thats what they do. So I sort of go with the flow, but I dont leave a jar of buttons out, either. Again, dd has a pretty strong gag reflex still, even at 10 mos, and doesnt usually swallow food, let alone coins.
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