Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 5

[tea olive]

oops sorry, it is not quite joining the network. it is joining the forum. i just learned this from freecycle - you can make a new folder in your inbox, then using tools, make message rules so that all the messages from a certain place will be dumped there. that way it is seperate from you personal email and you can browse it when you want to.

[Periwinkle]

I personally found the list too hard to keep up with. It was usually the same few people contributing, and while I found some of the information and suggestions to be helpful, it was also very redundant without providing a format (like MDC) for easy viewing/filtering. I went to daily digest format for a while and finally am just no mail currently.

Now this is a completely personal note, but I also found the genral unwillingness of the group to discuss (respectfully, dispassionately) issues or counters raised to Leidloff and the book to be kind of annoying. Some people asked good honest questions that were just ignored or flamed away, like exactly what was Leidloff's experience before writing the book, or the homophobia in the book and how can that just change without changing the assumptions underlying it, or the one-sidedness of basing an understanding of the entire human continuum off of one tribe in Central America. It had that air of untouchability that I don't like, and I'm someone who loved the book and got a lot out of it. But the Yahoo list left me with a lot to be desired. Again, just my $.02.

[morsan]

thanks casina for your input. The problem is that Kaelon gets very physical with the other girl (the 2 year-old not the 7 year-old)when she tells him he can't do something. It's everything that he can't do or can't have. Like going out the door, like having blueberries etc. He will claw her face if she tries stopping him. And she will use physical force if he doesn't comply with her wishes. But yes, they still do like each other. Her mom also says that she isn't usually like this with other children. However there is one other child (which Kaelon is quite close to) almost exactly the same age as Kaelon that she treats somewhat similar.

andrea-when I was on the list it was very busy. Like 30 mails a day. And often you will see the same issues being discussed. However, there are some great people there with really insightful responses.

misfitmama-you mentioned that liedloff drew some conclusions based on pearce's work. Which books? I had no idea about this. How did you find that out?

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by morsan

misfitmama-you mentioned that liedloff drew some conclusions based on pearce's work. Which books? I had no idea about this. How did you find that out?

Hi!

What? Did I say this? I will have to take time to go back and look at all my PP's, if so. . . I think I would have said that her ideas are *backed up* by Joseph Chilton Pearce's - and what I mean is, they are in *agreement.* This is also true of James W. Prescott's work, and I am assuming it is also true of John Bowlby's, just to name a few.

Right now I'm working on a website more or less on the topic of the "accurateness" of TCC. I *just* started it, but if anyone is interested, I'll post the link as soon as I've got some more info on there. I am kind of a human development research fiend.

Those of you who dropped off the listserv, I'm interested in knowing how long you were on it. I've been on for over a year and feel that my experience has been almost wholly positive. I wonder if it's because I have really "gotten to know" the various posters? I don't know what I would have done without that list.

MisfitMama

[Periwinkle]

Hi MisfitMama - I probably got full mail version for 2-3 months, then digest for another 2-3 months after that before going No Mail.

I have to admit, I am not a big fan of distribution groups ("listservs") as I think the technology has left them in the dust, and I'm just used to a much more user-friendly view/search/read format that some of the boards (like MDC) use.

Now a CC board/forum... that's something I could get into and something I think would add a lot to the ability to discuss various topics without having to be online all the time to follow all the different conversation threads.

HTH!

[tinaq]

Hi Mamas,

I've been reading your posts for the past couple of days & really relating to & gleaning information from them. I haven't read Liedloff's book, but am familiar w/ the sight & some of the concepts. We have incorporated some of the concepts, but others are new to us. I have to admit I'm a hoverer (is that a word?). However, the idea of not hovering & the results make a lot of sense to me. I just have to break the habit. Do you think changing this habit when a child is already 3 would be effective?

I appreciate your insights especially @ a time when our 3 yo is going through a lot of transition (new sister, moving, being 3 yo ).

Casina, your pictures are beautiful. Our dd is a Mei, too, only a Mei-Lynn (I wanted Lin, but my dh- who's mom we derived the Lynn from- didn't wanted to change the spelling). We've been calling her MeiMei, too. And I can totally relate to this statement "remember cruising the parks just to find people i could stand.....," especially after moving to a new place & getting ds out of the house.

I look forward to your future posts. I think I'll go find Liedloff's book now. Thanks!

Christina

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by tinaq

However, the idea of not hovering & the results make a lot of sense to me. I just have to break the habit. Do you think changing this habit when a child is already 3 would be effective?

Christina-

Definitely! I don't think it's ever too late to change your way of relating to a child. (Although, of course, the sooner the better).

John Holt discusses this a bit in his book _Teach Your Own_ in the chapter called "Living With Children". Also, if you get a newer copy of TCC (the one with the cool cover, anyway), she addresses this very issue in the foreward.

I have even tried TCC-ish "techniques" on fairly mainstream kids raised by friends, and with quite amazing results. . .

Good Luck~

MisfitMama

[mamaley]

may i jump in here?

the lovely misfit mama recommended this book to me on another thread, and i've been reading about it. i plan to get a copy tonight and i can't wait to read it. i wish their site was more thorough.

i was wondering if someone could give me a cliff note's version of what the author means by children are social beings vs. antisocial, (i'm assuming this means we need a village) and how this applies to everyday life and how it affects the child. i know it's a vague question, but i'm just really curious about this and want to learn more.

[morsan]

Well, I think the term basically just means that children are born with an innate desire to model their parents and their culture. Mainly it's in contrast to our current belief that if we don't force children (by coercion, ie schooling, inappropriate discipline etc) to cooperate they won't cooperate. Children are born wanting to cooperate, it's biological. I'm sure someone can dwell on this a little more, I'm a little short of time.

misfitmama- I was thinking that's what you were saying, that they both had arrived at the very similar conclusions. Sorry, I got confused. To me this gives more credibility to Liedloff's conclusions, since she gets a lot of heat from people (who may be very scientifically minded) who don't like that she takes one culture and assumes that this is how humans were supposed to live in order to be happy.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by morsan

Mainly it's in contrast to our current belief that if we don't force children (by coercion, ie schooling, inappropriate discipline etc) to cooperate they won't cooperate. Children are born wanting to cooperate, it's biological.

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by morsan

To me this gives more credibility to Liedloff's conclusions, since she gets a lot of heat from people (who may be very scientifically minded) who don't like that she takes one culture and assumes that this is how humans were supposed to live in order to be happy.

Oh, it annoys me so much when people brush it off like that. That's a huge part of why I'm putting together a website. I have been collecting links that you might be interested in - about other cultures. I'll try to post them here ASAP, in case you would like to have them to refer to.

Interestingly, two of the most intelligent people I know are scientists, and both of them were *blown away* by The Continuum Concept. I think people who brush it off either don't understand it, or they are unable to reorganize their brains around it because it can certainly cause a nervous breakdown, and though I love forcing myself to have these, many people do not! (But *why*? It's so *exciting*!)

mamaley - so glad you joined us! I just ran across a good, concise definition of "innate sociality" - I'll try to dig that up, too.

MisfitMama

[MisfitMama]

Originally Posted by MisfitMama

I have been collecting links that you might be interested in - about other cultures. I'll try to post them here ASAP

Here's one of them:

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/McElroy.htm

MisfitMama

[tinaq]

Thanks for the encouraging words MisfitMama. I just got the newer copy of The Continuum Concept today & you're right, it does have a beautiful cover on it. I'm very excited & motivated to read it.

Christina

[Fianna]

Hmmm. I've heard of this book, actually think I may have it in one of the many boxes of books around here, and now I must go find it!

Much of what I think I am hearing about CC from you all really resonates with me. I haven't checked out the official CC site and will try to do so.

I'm a big sling user (my youngest is a little over 2 and we use it all the time still); I'm not a hoverer--for instance we never used a baby gate for stairs, just showed them how to "bump" down before they could walk; I let my kids "help" all the time and they love to sweep, help me empty the dishwasher, etc.; we could throw out 90% of the toys in my house and my kids would be fine--they like scissors, paper, dolls they can pretend with...; every day we go outside and play in the little plastic pool--if they want to put dirt in it to see what happens, great. I let them experiment, get dirty, make messes--I try to say yes whenever possible. I let them ride their doll strollers down our sidewalk, try out scooters, climb trees, etc.

So am I doing CC stuff?

[tinaq]

We're on a temporary move here in CO from TX for 6 months. Space was tight on the move up here & I opted to pack one of those plastic tubs of toys for my ds w/ wooden blocks & train tracks. The really exciting part for me is that today is the first day he's actually opened the tub. He's been busying himself w/ playing w/ the dustpan, some headphones & controller (like he's flying an airplane) from dh's video game, and looking through books from the library. It just fully hits home that toys are not a necessity, their creativity & imagination are exercised so much more fully w/o them.

I have been actively trying to deprogram my hovering habit I really tried it out this weekend while we went to the Butterfly Pavilion. Of course, he did just fine & things were much more relaxed, as a result.

Really enjoying the read.

Christina

[kakies]

There was a wonderful thread here on MDC about AP vs. TCC. I'm pretty sure you all will enjoy.

Here it is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tinuum+concept[/HTML]

[kakies]

We do a lot of CC, but when dd1 was 2.2yo we had dd2 and I suddenly had "trusting" issues with dd1 around her newborn sister. How did you handle this? It was terrible I know that I needed to trust her and she needed to feel trusted but I just couldn't do it.

Are there limits to that trust?

[tea olive]

theoretically, there are no boundaries on what you can trust your child with, allowing that you know their limits. when my 2nd was born, protecting him from his older brother was me exerting the discipline that he lacked, acting the mamma. but then, it could be considered that i was limiting him to begin with my fears. vibe and expectation are big factors. i have witnessed two close and trusting mothers: one allowing her 2 boy and 4 girl to pass a few times and hold the other's sleeping two week old newborn baby. this was while they were standing over a concrete pad at a park. everyone was clamhappy. i had to remember to breathe and feel good about it too. the other mammas scared by it decided to turn away.

our trust is our own issue, as most things about parenting are.

[Fianna]

Originally Posted by kakies

There was a wonderful thread here on MDC about AP vs. TCC. I'm pretty sure you all will enjoy.

Here it is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tinuum+concept[/HTML]

Thanks for the link! That was a very informative discussion and gave me lots to think about.

[MisfitMama]

Kakies - yes, thanks for the link. Now here is the problem with THIS kind of forum - I don't discover threads until they are over.

I have to say that I'm not very pleased with the extent of the discussion on that thread. Is it too late to post on it? I don't know how that stuff works.

It seems like most of the posters haven't even read the book, and I shudder when people misunderstand CC and think it can be broken down into a list, like AP.

The deal is this: AP is BASED on the continuum concept (the concept, as well as the book). Dr. Sears coined the term "attachment parenting" after reading TCC. He probably also read Bowlby and that's where he came up with "attachment," I would assume. In any case, I do owe a lot to Dr. Sears - after all, I found TCC through AP. But, OTOH, he really mangled TCC. He watered it down, misunderstood it, and made it palatable to the mainstream and to right-wing Christians. I am happy that he made it more understandable (I can't *believe* how many people don't understand TCC even after reading it. . .) but TCC itself is not a theory, a philosophy, or a "list of ideals". It is a concept. It is the truth. And if you truly understand this truth, you don't need a list of ideals, because they will be obvious to you.

*sigh*. Sometimes I get so discouraged by all of this. Why is it so hard for our culture to grasp the concept? Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just that people don't *want* to know?

Does anyone even know what I'm talking about?

MisfitMama