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Continuum concept (ish) Tribe - Page 49

post #961 of 1092
Quote:
I tell friends that "ive put the fear of God in my daughter about the street" I'm not religious but I have intentionally scared her of the road since she was very little and am quite confident that she will not run in it. I always tell her how small she is and that cars could hit her and kill her or hurt her very very much. I've told her cars can't see her and that she has to be with a tall person on the street. I've also taught her to look both ways and she is pretty good about deciding when we should walk
Children are spontaneous. In unnatural settings, I wonder if we can expect natural instincts to protect them. For instance with the road, cars are going at an unnatural speed. There is nothing in nature that is as big and also going as fast as a car. Even if a child had intact instincts and a subconscious awareness of the road, this may not protect them in a normal childish moment that results in the child running in front of a moving vehicle.

I understand that continuum children have such profound awareness that they do not fall into waterways or firepits and do not cut themselves with knives. However, I wonder how this translates to something like a busy road. It may translate perfectly, I just think being such an unnatural setting, natural instincts may fail. I could also be wrong.

My nephew died on the road at the age of five due to a spontaneous burst of childish energy. Hit by a car, died on life support. If he had all his instincts intact, I wonder if he would have saved himself. I wonder if his subconscious awareness would have prevented him from running into that danger zone without him even having to think of it consciously. It's worth thinking about, but at the same time, I do wonder about unnatural settings.
post #962 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by riomidwife View Post
DPs most recent experience in the jungle was in Panama, with one of the hunter-gatherer indigenous groups there. One thing that sticks out for our discussions upon his return was how their houses are on stilts, not entirely enclosed, and typically missing floor boards. He said at first it was hard to feel comfortable with the babies crawling around next to these big holes in the floor, but he realized soon enough that they figured out how to maneuver around on the floor and avoid the holes (although who knows, maybe accidents do happen?). Babies are carried in rebozos or wraps...He also heard babies cryng sproadically throught the night while he was sleeping in the jungle.
This is very interesting, thanks!

Does anyone know of other books that look at other cultures in the way the TCC looked at Yequana? I know there was some in Our Babies Ourselves but I read it so long ago. I would love some reading suggestions.

The other week I began to watch a program on Travel Chanel about two guys who went to live with the Machigenga tribe in Peru. It was very interesting to watch. Although there wasn't much about babies or childrearing in the shows I watched.
post #963 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I don't believe that it is the child's responsibility to prevent themselves from being traumatized when the parent places them in a situation where the child doesn't have responsive resources available.
I agree. I would never let it escalate to the point of her actually thinking she was lost. That seems cruel and unnecessary.

In fact, Pat, your entire post was very insightful and I really appreciate it.

What I did yesterday at the park: I would say, "We are going to the playground to meet our friends now, follow me please," and start walking. Every time she would find something interesting to look at, climb on, play with, and forget about me. I stood behind a tree and watched her to see what she'd do. Eventually (long enough for me to have actually left without her, had I never stopped and looked!) she looked up and didn't see me, and started calling out, "Mommy, Mommy wait!" but she wasn't frantic. At that moment, I made myself seen, but did not come running to her. I simply returned to her view and continued walking, asking her to follow.

Guess what- she didn't follow!

I will continue to practice but I will also respect that she has her own will and it doesn't make sense for me to get up and leave, with or without her, and expect that she'll immediately want to follow. She has not grown up in a world like the Yequana's. She has grown up in a world where the parents make the ultimate decision, but they also bend and flex to suit her needs and preferences. So a normal scenario for her is this: I will suggest leaving and she will plant herself down and suggest to me that she is not ready, and I will wait. If I leave without her (or let her perceive that I have left), I'm damaging her trust that I respect her needs and preferences too. If I insist that she leaves with me and force her physically, I'm damaging that trust again.

But I have needs and preferences too, and so does everyone else. At times I have had to carry her out of a place, squirming and protesting, because she is not the only person on the planet and someone else has a need to be tended to. Or she has a need, for a nap for instance, that she isn't recognizing, and I have to take steps to meet that need that she might not like.

This is the reality of the world we live in.

I am off to read that Noelle article...
post #964 of 1092
Quote:
My nephew died on the road at the age of five due to a spontaneous burst of childish energy. Hit by a car, died on life support. If he had all his instincts intact, I wonder if he would have saved himself. I wonder if his subconscious awareness would have prevented him from running into that danger zone without him even having to think of it consciously. It's worth thinking about, but at the same time, I do wonder about unnatural settings.
I'm so sorry. That is an awful tragedy.

I have some thoughts about how children learn about danger but I haven't thought them through well enough to type them out. But I don't think that all of the self-preservation that TCC children show is instinct, some of it is learned through experience in the first year or so.

Quote:
So a normal scenario for her is this: I will suggest leaving and she will plant herself down and suggest to me that she is not ready, and I will wait. If I leave without her (or let her perceive that I have left), I'm damaging her trust that I respect her needs and preferences too. If I insist that she leaves with me and force her physically, I'm damaging that trust again.
I agree and I would also not threaten to leave without the child or physically force them, but there is a difference between "I'm leaving you here" and "We're going now." I always say it with full confidence that my children are going to follow, and include them by saying "we."

As far as getting lost, if the child doesn't learn to follow mom/dad that becomes a real possibility, and they need to know that. I think it is safer for them to learn to share in that responsibility than for them to think I am always keeping track of their whereabouts. With soon to be 3, I think it would be impossible, so I'm glad my older two know how to stay with me and have little/no inclination not to.
post #965 of 1092
Nolimum, once a week dd and I go on a "hike". Generally, I do everything in the hike on her time frame. It's quite freeing, actually. I find that we tend to walk quite naturally together during that time, and I don't need to pull her along with my words because we are just walking together.

It's when I express a need to go somewhere and push her with my words and don't make it part of the flow of the activity that I encounter a lot of resistance. For example, when we're trying to get out of the house to catch the bus to preschool and we have slept in, that's when the conflict occurs.

Maybe try creating a time (an afternoon?) when you can be outside and wander, to get into the groove of walking together, without the push and pull of words and schedules?

Calm, that is such a sad story. We don't live near a road, but we do have a parking lot nearby. The only time I worry about dd playing outside without me is when she gets engaged in a chasing game, excited, and runs into the parking lot. I think that we are gradually getting there with the idea that the parking lot is NOT somewhere she should go without me right now. When the kids play road hockey and bike in the parking lot, I'm on the sidelines. They are learning how to go to the side, but they are just so short and cars don't see them. Luckily, the cars that come in are normally driven by the parents of the kids who are playing there.
post #966 of 1092

Mealtime---tabletime philosophy?

: Wondering what you all's approach to meals and family table time is?

DS used to happily sit at the table through most of diner until a few months ago (about 19 months). Now he will sit for 2 minutes, hardly eat, then boldly declare "DONE!" It's pretty funny.

We're pretty laid back about how/where people eat in our house. DS lieks to roam around the kitchen while eating. His parents has enforced tabletime and as an only child he absolutely dreaded it and now resists formal dining at all costs. I was very often left to fend for myself, and my single mother was not all that interested in forcing us to sit at the table staring at each other every night over diner....

So we're trying to forge our own philosophy about family meal time and eating together....Now when DS is "DONE" he climbs out of the chair and does his own thing, which i am fine with. But if I can get him back in the chair, which he will often do rather easily, he will hapily eat more.

Because we're also dealing with food sesnitivity issues, his diet is pretty restricted and I want him to get all the calories he can, so I am inlcined to encourage him to stay sitting with us at the table. But the bulk of me wants to honor his desires to be free and do whatever, run around the table, try a new chair, fuss, etc.

I'd love to hear how you all approach family meals (so most likely supper) in your house!
post #967 of 1092
riomidwife: I just wrote a post about this exact thing!

http://infinitelearners.com/2009/03/family-dinner/
post #968 of 1092
Another thought: I am sure that even in the most ideal of continuum societies children died from a tragic accident. It's not like any peoples are exempt from losing a little one, but I'm not thinking the group then outlawed a certain behavior. Maybe just naturally the children stayed away from a certain ravine after it proved dangerous. Or maybe it is more realistic that they just called it an accident and let it be at that. Our society seems to want to find something or someone to blame when sometimes an accident is just an accident.

When I first started implementing CC into our lives 5 years ago I stayed very aware of the differences between the tribe in the book and the modern city life we live. I took the ideals and the truths I resonated with and then adapted them to fit our lifestyles, using my intuition as a guiding factor. There were times when using a cc belief was an amazing gift for our family and there have been other times where I have acted like the Mother Bear deciding that the situation needed me to design some safety parameters.
post #969 of 1092
Flowers, thanks for sharing your blog post! How old are your LO(s)?
I thought this was a juicy topic, but maybe I'm alone here
post #970 of 1092
My boys are 4.5 and 1.5.

I think it's a juicy topic too!

I notice the more access my kids have to snacks the less likely they are to sit with us to dinner, but if the cupboards are bare and the only food around is the prepared meal then they sit and eat. I just don't know what to do about those observations! I like letting my kids eat when they are hungry and let them choose healthy snacks through out the day, but I also like them sitting to eat. There must be a win-win in all of this.

(riomw...i like you siggy btw )
post #971 of 1092
Growing up, we had family dinners, though not as strict as Flowers's--we were allowed to eat at a friend's house, miss one dinner a week for dance class, have an occasional meal on TV trays when something good was on, etc. But reading at the table was forbidden because it deterred conversation--even though we often found little to talk about and the conversation was thus quite boring.

When I was very young, I was allowed to leave the table when I was done eating, with the understanding that once Mom cleared the table I wouldn't get to eat any more until dessert. (In my family, dessert was a separate meal eaten just before bedtime and was usually along the lines of canned fruit or yogurt.) Around 5 years old, I remember being taught to say, "May I please be excused?" and then carry my dishes to the kitchen before I moved on.

In my home now, dinner is much less structured, but it's gotten better recently. When I went back to working 40-hour weeks, I began to feel even more strongly that EnviroDaddy, who works at home, should cook dinner while I am picking up our child and getting home--because when I started cooking after getting home at 7:00, my entire evening went into cooking, eating, and then putting to bed a kid who was mad about not getting to do anything after dinner, and I didn't have time for anything else! Now EnviroDaddy makes dinner on weeknights, and we often give in to EnviroKid's requests to watch TV while eating because it helps him work in all the things he wants to do in an evening AND it gives us a chance to talk together! (Liedloff says the Yequana children, and children in other continuum cultures like Bali, are fairly quiet during meals and don't interrupt adult conversation.)

We had been having trouble with EnviroKid demanding different food than what we'd made and sometimes refusing to eat the first thing he wanted and whining for something else. Now he and Daddy plan the week's dinner menu on Sunday, and he may eat what's for dinner or eat leftovers, but we will not make him any new foods. That's working pretty well.

We allow reading at the table unless somebody says, "Please stop reading while I'm talking to you." (That goes for reading at other times, too!) EnviroDaddy and I find that reading while we eat often leads to conversation, in that one of us will say, "Listen to this!" and then we wind up putting down our reading materials and discussing it. We look forward to our kid being able to read too.
post #972 of 1092
When ds was that age, he was still nursing so much that I didn't really worry about meals... I just gave him lots of finger foods and let him eat what he wanted... I also kept snacks available, such as almonds or fruits/veggies, since I feel like mealtime is more of a communal thing, a connection time. So if he wants to snack all day long and then chat through dinner, that's fine with me. (DP and I get our conversations in after bedtime)(ds is a terrible interrupter, but I remind myself that, of course he is: his continuum is off since he's not surrounded by a little tribe of kids to chatter with 24/7)
As far as sitting goes... the guideline we try to go by is: if you get down, then you are finished. But ds seems to have a really, really hard time sitting still, so we go for harmony.
But: ALL that is available is what's on the table! No looking through the cupboards and coming up with your own meal. (that's more of a snacktime thing) I really feel it's important to show respect to the person who prepared the meal, and of course, we make sure that what is offered is something that he likes.
post #973 of 1092
Subbing!

I finally managed to read TCC after borrowing a copy form my LLL chapter, and found the first few chapters really interesting. I was really fascinated with how her ideas lined up so well with contemporary popular ideas about learning (e.g. socio-cultural learning theories) and parenting, despite being written more than 30 years ago.

Reading TCC was in a way an affirmation of the way I've been parenting so far. I'm looking forward to reading posts here!
post #974 of 1092
I think it's nice to sit down to a meal with the family, but there's no reason for everyone to have to eat or have to eat the same things. My two year old will sit down with us to eat for a little while, and then he gets bored and finds something else to do. Mealtimes are more fun for grownups, because we like to talk. Kids like to do things, but they also like to be included. It's the same with everything else you do with a CC mindset: kids shouldn't be forced to act like adults, when they want to, they will. Being forced to eat "family" meals all through childhood is why teenagers avoid it when possible (or why we did in my family).
post #975 of 1092
*subbing*

This stuff makes so much more sense than anything I've found so far and I am SO relieved that I don't have to put my life completely on hold and let my house go to pot in order to give my kid enough attention. Holy cow. I was sooo dreading that. I'm pretty sure I have ADD, and playing kids games makes me want to run away and hide. I couldn't imagine years of teeth-gritting to make sure my children were 'well-adjusted'...

My mom used some of these concepts and my siblings and I are just about the most well-adjusted people among all our peers. Not that we don't have our own issues....
post #976 of 1092
I'd like to join. I struggle with cl but I am trying - it feels right to me.
post #977 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
I'd like to join. I struggle with cl but I am trying - it feels right to me.
Ah, but this is CC
post #978 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by zansmama View Post
Ah, but this is CC
so i need the book. LOL.
post #979 of 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowers View Post
Another thought: I am sure that even in the most ideal of continuum societies children died from a tragic accident. It's not like any peoples are exempt from losing a little one, but I'm not thinking the group then outlawed a certain behavior. Maybe just naturally the children stayed away from a certain ravine after it proved dangerous. Or maybe it is more realistic that they just called it an accident and let it be at that. Our society seems to want to find something or someone to blame when sometimes an accident is just an accident.
Well, more typically, the societies blamed something OUTSIDE their locus of control, e.g., fate or the whims of the gods, whereas our society likes to think that everything is WITHIN our control.
post #980 of 1092

need help with babysitting 2 boys (& DD)

DD is almost 3 and I take her along with me to babysit for 2 different families.
The one I need help with has 2 boys, 3 yo and 19 mos. The mom is a friend of mine, tries really hard and believes in AP concepts, but did not come from an AP household. Her grandmother raised her and lives with them, using spanking (not in front of us), yelling, threats, shaming, etc. So the older boy has picked up on things like yelling "bad!" while wagging his finger, and is a rampant toy-snatcher (for no reason other than he can). The younger one has picked up on the reactions that these behaviors get, and overreacts to them, screaming and falling on the floor, throwing things, etc. And of course they both run away from me whenever I need them to follow along for some reason.

I had thought that DD and I were doing reasonably well with the whole situation, but today has me thinking that I need to make some serious changes. She has always been excited to play with them, even though they are sometimes mean to each other. And I just focused on keeping things moving (going to the park, moving through different rooms/activities), staying out of the kids' way as long as they weren't fighting, and getting to the end of the day without major incident. DD & the 3 yo haven't been able to nap when we're there, so that adds to the mayhem. Not something I want to do full time, but I could handle a few 1/2 days and maybe 1 full day per week (which is what I've been doing).

Maybe today was just a particularly bad day because the older boy was overtired, but I was completely at the end of my rope. My nerves were totally shot. Every chance they got, they (DD & the older boy mostly; the younger one got a nap) were at each other's throats or getting into something they knew they shouldn't, not listening/running away, etc. And now it looks like I'll be doing 2-3 full days per week with them! Please give me some ideas on what to do. I feel like I need to go through a hypnosis-for-toddler-care class or something (to control MY reactions/behavior, not them!). Come to think of it, I do have the book The Happiest Toddler On The Block. Would that help me? Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!!
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