"I supplement once a day... I mean, I need a break! don't you think?" - Page 2

[loving-my-babies]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGalHeidi

If you get upset over BF support and advocacy(which includes encourages mothers to not supp with FF and EBF if possible), then why are you here?

I totally agree here. and I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, all mothers need a break (I have 2 kids so I know it's tough and exhausting) but I feel it's selfish to supplement with formula in order to take that much needed break. Try to work something out... so you can get your break WITHOUT having to supplement with formula. The way I see it (because I had to ff my dd since she was 3 months for medical reasons) I would do anything so my baby would receive only breastmilk.

and no one was being unsupportive of this woman breastfeeding, it's great that she is, but her tone (and I was there so I could hear the way she said it) seemed to be like she was "trying to breastfeed, don't like it, so I'm supplementing cause this is too exhausting"

This is my personal opinion.

[boysrus]

Ok, the word *enraged* does not bring spport to my mind.
The grandam said trying. The grandma was a mom in the time when no one breastfed. My mom would have said the same thing, and then turned pink at the word breast lol.
My take on this: 1. The mom was having a short convo with an employee in a store. She is extremely sleep deprived. She eeds the small break that one formula bottle per day will give. The store employee starts the probfing talk. Mom feels extremely defensve(due to guilt and sleep depr) and so says something with a defensive tone. Employee proves moms point about needing to be defensive by coming onto mothering to exress her rage at this mom.
I have very fair skin. I believe that I had thrush with all three boys. For the first month of the nursing relationship, it would hurt so badly I would cry. But, I kept up. my first babe was failuire to thrive. DOc wanted me to supplemet with formula after each nursing for three days. After that, he wanted me to give one formulabottle per day(he wanted dh to do it, actually) so I could get some rest. Since my nipples hurt sooo badly., even if dh were not available, I wold sit and hold my baby and feed him a bottle. This was when he was 2-3 weeks old. It was one bottle a day and it was a blessing. pumping would have been just as excruciating, even while nursing. I say I think it was thrush, but maybe it wasnt/ Maybe it was just sensitive skin. But, after those few bottles, I went on to exclusively nurse him for 6 months, and continued to nurse im until he was 12 months old nd he self weaned. I exclusively nursed ds #2 for 6 months, weaned at 2 years, exc nursed ds#3 for 6 months, still hasnt weaned at almost 3.
I hate it when judgements are so casually flung at new moms.

[abigailvr]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't think anyone would suggest that a new mom was being selfish by needing a break. But, I do think it is fair to assume that someone supplementing at 2 weeks (even 1 bottle a day) is jepordizing a nursing relationship that hasn't even had time to become established. That's what I find upsetting about situations like these. And, of course, the inevitable, I tried, but.........I wasn't making enough milk/baby only wanted the bottle/etc. that only perpetuates the false notion that bfing somehow "doesn't work" much of the time.

I totally agree with you! Things like bottles at two weeks can have a large negative affect later on. I think sometimes moms don't realize that is the case and they just assume they weren't able to breastfed, or their milk just dried up for no reason, when in reality their milk supply was sabotaged by an artificial nipple.

I realize that it doesn't happen to everyone who supplements, for the record. I also know what it means to need a break. My toddler still nurses at night and will only resettle for me. Believe me, I could use a break from being the only source of comfort all night long.

[Al Dente]

I supplement once a day-at night actually so I can get more than an hour of sleep-and YES I DO NEED A BREAK. Ds is 5 wks old. Yes, I realize this could jeopardize our nursing relationship, but how many mamas do you think stop bf altogether because they never ever get a break? My opinion is that the nursing relationship is most jeopardized when moms realize they are on call 24/7 and they decide they simply can't function and fulfill this expectation. Perhaps that one bottle is saving her from quitting altogether, ever think about that?

Look, a lot of assumptions are being made here. Maybe she can't pump. This was the case with me (I started another thread on this tonight). My milk didn't come in until day 9!! I had a round the clock nurser who was losing weight and I could tell he was dehydrated; at one point nothing would wake him up...that was night 7 and the night we started formula. He's been a different baby and I've been a much more relaxed first time mom since that night. I was frustrated, angry, scared out of my mind, and very sad to have to supplement at all. But I did. And I thank God that formula was there for me.

My point is, you don't have a clue what her situation is. New moms (I'm assuming this was her first?) don't know what they're in for and they usually have very little support. Where is LLL or your doula or your best friend at 2 am when you are bleary eyed and trying to get a new baby to latch on? It's all well and good to say that formula and supplementing is evil and should never, ever be done but quite another to walk in that person's shoes. God forbid there are ANY problems that make it even more difficult to bf successfully right away.

Sorry for the angry post. This just rubbed me in all the wrong ways.

(P.S.) Tonight was the first time I have pumped successfully since ds was born. We will be stopping the formula in favor of a bottle of bm. But I will still get some sleep.

[soccerchic21]

I too would feel bad for that baby in a way. The mother's reply sounds as if she really isn't fully into breastfeeding or her baby for that fact. I have been fortunate where I have an amzingly supportive LLL group and they are not breastfeeding Nazis.

Also the "I am trying to breastfeed" comment always bugs me for some reason now. You are either doing it or you aren't

[Al Dente]

Originally Posted by karlin

Everytime I see a new baby in a store getting a bottle, I think to myself, "That poor baby really needs a boob!".

Just had to comment on this as well. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ISN'T BREASTMILK? Do you remember how it feels to nip for the first time? Geez. Okay I'm leaving this thread now, I'm obviously way too emotional for this subject.

[soccerchic21]

Originally Posted by RacheePoo

Just had to comment on this as well. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ISN'T BREASTMILK? Do you remember how it feels to nip for the first time? Geez. Okay I'm leaving this thread now, I'm obviously way too emotional for this subject.

Doesn't formula usually look yellower than breastmilk? That is how I can usually tell.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by KeysMama

ok my "all about the baby" has been taken way out of context.

My apologies - I guess I inferred "tone" when there wasn't any! Hard to tell sometimes on a typed message.... sorry...

Kitty

[tracymom]

Originally Posted by HelloKitty

It's very easy to pump on one side while baby nurses on the other, save this bottle for later when you want to get a couple hours of sleep.

sorry, kitty, to pick on you to make my point, but here goes.

I could NEVER pump. The only way I could pump was to have DS nursing on one side and then even ever only got 1 1/2 to 2 ounces of formula. I only did it to have extra for those times when he nursed me dry and cried for more.

If I had it to do over again, I would probably be tempted to supplement with formula. I fail to see what the big deal is. More moms would BF if they felt they could do what this girl was doing. Good for her.

[fyrflymommy]

Originally Posted by soccerchic21

Doesn't formula usually look yellower than breastmilk? That is how I can usually tell.

yep. and (to me anyway) it looks slightly more dense. bm kinda looks like skim milk in a bottle. oh and i've also noticed w/ formula that sometimes there's kinda foamy bubbles on top.

[roxy]

this probably comes from the fact that both times i had a newborn i was single (not by my choice), and will probably set off lots of angry posts, but here goes...
both of my sons were unplanned, both unplanned c-secs, ds1 self-weaned at 24 mos., ds2 is 2 and still nursing, i have no help w/ day to day care of my kids, and neither one ever, ever, ever got a bottle, not even ebm. every day i long for a break. i think anyone who "needs" a break after only 2 weeks is a wuss. i'm with the op.
ok, go ahead w/ the angry replies.

[gethane]

I supplemented with my first three out of ignorance.. and it did eventually cause an early end to bfing. I stopped with all three around 7-8 months because "they preferred the bottle."

I remember even with my 4th babe I was overwhelmed those first 4-6 weeks. This time, however, I knew better and didn't supplement. Babe does get one pumped bottle ever other week for grandma/grandpa time. And if I can't pump 5 oz in a week, baby doesn't go. Formula is a no-go at my house this time.

However, its society I'm mad at. We are just so anti-breastfeeding in this country. It's apparent even on this thread.. "How dare you say exclusive breastfeeding is best.. blah blah blah." I used to think that this was ONE forum on the internet I could go to and really get support for my views on bfing. Perhaps I'd have a better fit at MBC.

I'm not judging YOU to say that supplementing causes issues down the road. I'm not judging you for low supply. As a parent we NEED to find within in ourselves confidence in our choices and not feel so defensive every time someone else has a different opinion. Especially on the Breastfeeding Support and Advocacy Forum for goodness sake!

[Raven67]

Why not just pump??? Well, pumping is not easy/workable for many people. I have had horrible problems pumping, and ended up having to supplement because I must work part-time. Besides, setting up the pump, sitting down to pump for 15-30 minutes, and the dissembling the pump each day....does not sound like a break to me. I have never pumped a full bottle of breastmilk in one pumping session, and my babe is 6 months old. As long as this mom is aware that her supply may suffer (maybe she knows, maybe not), live and let live. I have many friends (and myself) who have combined breast feeding with a little formula, and it helps them to continue breastfeeding longer. I agree that formula COMPANIES are evil, with their manipulative and false advertising, AND I think every woman should give exclusive breastfeeding a good try, but then again, using some formula can be a loving choice for many women.

[monkey's mom]

There is this concept I learned about in a sociology class one time, it's called the Birdcage Theory (or something like that). It says that the first time something happens (like a racist remark, for example), it might not be such a big deal. You can think of it as one wire. But, when they keep happening, the wires start building up and eventually you can have enough wires to create something around you like a birdcage--which ends up being a really big deal, b/c then you're trapped. It's supposed to illustrate how oppression builds up over time and can eventually handicap.

This is how I see the OP's story. If this mom were the exception rather than the norm, it wouldn't be a big deal. But, the norm in this culture is to push formula on babies--and there are a lot of shady, crappy, insidious ways that this happens. So, the wires build up, and there are more and more times when formula becomes the norm and bfing becomes something Other (something too hard, something radical, something *other* than the norm). And it's hard not to reach a threshold and want to push back. And how do you push back on a cage? You can sometimes only touch a couple of wires at a time. And sadly, it often ends up being the mom in the OP who gets the brunt of that, know what I mean?

And it's not really HER. It's not any of the moms here. Hell, it's not even *just* Nestle. It's the WHOLE DAMN THING--ALL the crappy formula reps and ALL their employers, the Gary Ezzos, the pediatrician who gives you shit, your MIL who keeps tsk tsking, the jerk at Burger King who tells a woman to get out or cover up, the barrage of media images showing bottles, the people who roll their eyes whenever you mention that you're "still" nursing, the misinformation and total bs that we've all heard over and over again about bfing and breast milk, and on and on and on.

So, of course we should support a mom who is doing the best she can. Of course! But I know how hard it can be to see that part of it, and to focus on the fact that one more wire is coming at you and just how much that sucks. I get the 'enraged' part of it. I don't think the OP was enraged AT that mom, so much as enraged by the whole birdcage. Does that make sense? And I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but for me, I've really been thinking about why scenarios like this bother me so much--and this is kinda why.

I hope I explained it OK and didn't overstep my bounds re. the OP. I also don't want to add to the negative feelings that people are having here--just hoping to bridge the gap there seems to be in our different experiences and perceptions.

[MommyPam]

I supplemented with formula with my first child for a whole variety of reasons. (Ignorance, desperation, exhaustion, the free case of pre-mixed formula that was sitting on the shelf...)I was eventually able to develop a full supply of breastmilk, but I did stop nursing way earlier than I should have. I think that early formula made it that much easier to give up later.

With my second child, I was determined to succeed for the long run with breastfeeding. The most helpful thing for me was that the midwives said "The first couple of weeks are all about you and the baby. Get someone else to do all cooking and housework, crawl in to bed with the baby, and sleep and nurse to your heart's content". I never got really exhausted, and nursing went beautifully.

I don't have the appropriate reference for this, but I have read on this board that some of the immune factors in a baby's system are destroyed with the first feeding of non-breastmilk. This includes glucose water, and formula. They never get these immunities back again. Ideally, Moms who need to supplement should be able to do so without guilt, but if you are able to nurse exclusively, there is a clear benefit to doing so.

[Momtwice]

Originally Posted by soccerchic21

I have been fortunate where I have an amzingly supportive LLL group and they are not breastfeeding Nazis.

Ouch! I feel pain when people casually throw the words breastfeeding and Nazi together. I feel this word choice is always inappropriate and trivializes who the real Nazis were. (And since Nestle paid a multi-million dollar settlement for using slave labor in World War II, callling LLL members, however passionate, Nazis is really backward in terms of who has really been opressing people.)

My LLL group was very open minded too. There was never a feeling of only one way to do things. There were exclusively breastfeeding moms, supplementing moms, all kinds of experiences.

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

If this mom were the exception rather than the norm, it wouldn't be a big deal. But, the norm in this culture is to push formula on babies--and there are a lot of shady, crappy, insidious ways that this happens. ....

And it's not really HER. It's not any of the moms here. Hell, it's not even *just* Nestle. It's the WHOLE DAMN THING--ALL the crappy formula reps and ALL their employers, the Gary Ezzos, the pediatrician who gives you shit, your MIL who keeps tsk tsking, the jerk at Burger King who tells a woman to get out or cover up, the barrage of media images showing bottles, the people who roll their eyes whenever you mention that you're "still" nursing, the misinformation and total bs that we've all heard over and over again about bfing and breast milk, and on and on and on.

Oh yeah! Don't forget those "helpful" samples I got in the mail and used when I was desperately tired and believed as a new mom that LLL was awful (because a book about babies said so) and bf didn't last long after that....

[soccerchic21]

Originally Posted by RacheePoo

My point is, you don't have a clue what her situation is. New moms (I'm assuming this was her first?) don't know what they're in for and they usually have very little support. Where is LLL or your doula or your best friend at 2 am when you are bleary eyed and trying to get a new baby to latch on?

Actually my LLL leader is available at 2am and has gotten many calls at that time and is always ready to help people.

[soccerchic21]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

Ouch! I feel pain when people casually throw the words breastfeeding and Nazi together. I feel this word choice is always inappropriate and trivializes who the real Nazis were. (And since Nestle paid a multi-million dollar settlement for using slave labor in World War II, callling LLL members, however passionate, Nazis is really backward in terms of who has really been opressing people.)

My LLL group was very open minded too. There was never a feeling of only one way to do things. There were exclusively breastfeeding moms, supplementing moms, all kinds of experiences.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone that was not my intention. I do not see LLL that way I just get really defensive when I see people talking about LLL this way

Originally Posted by Mothra

I'm remembering why I've never made it through an entire LLL meeting. "We will support you, but only if you breastfeed exactly the way we tell you to."

People have different definitions of "all about the baby". What that meant to me with one kid was a lot different by the time my third rolled around. The implication that someone who gives her child one bottle a day is somehow less interested in her child or cares for her child less sucks, in my opinion.

So we really only support women who breastfeed exclusively?

That bothers me because LLL is a wonderful organization!

[Firemom]

Ok she needs a break so she gives the baby one bottle of formula. I don't get it, she still has to feed the baby and to me it seems easier to just pop the baby on and nurse, rather than go open a can a formula, mix it, heat it and give it to your baby, then wash the bottle. Sounds like she is making more work for herself and not really giving herself a break.

Trying to breastfeed: Tells me there is not a lot of support for this mom with breastfeeding. Like someone else said you are either doing it or not. Since she is giving bottles, that bottle will most likely lead to another and then she will be telling people she has to supplement because she doesn't have enough milk.

Does this sound familiar? This is how the majority of women who start off breastfeeding end up on a bottle of formula in the first month of life.

I worked with a mom who wanted to mix the 2. She disregarded all of my advice and was totally ff her baby at 1 month. But she was happy, because she didn't want to get up at night to feed her baby anyhow :

[rareimer]

well put, monkey'smom! i totally agree with you.

i think what enraged this mother is what enrages me...the lack of importance placed on breastfeeding in this society. the "oh i guess i'll try, but if it doesn't work out, i won't stress" attitude is really prevalent. and just the fact that formula is made out to be so "convenient" is what undermines so many bf'ing relationships. it may only be "one bottle a day", but it's just the attitude towards formula as being a "just in case" kind of thing, kwim? we need to get away from that attitude, and realize that those first few weeks are HARD for everyone, and it is NORMAL to be overwhelmed with a new baby and no sleep, and it is NORMAL to want a break, but it is also NORMAL to be there to nurse that baby every time they are hungry, and NORMAL to work through problems. there are situations where formula is necessary, and for those situations, thank God it is there, but just the whole attitude of "it's there, so why not?" is exactly what breastfeeding advocacy is trying to combat. babies are inconvenient by nature.

believe me, we had a HARD time with breastfeeding in the beginning. oversupply, overactive letdown, reflux, bad latch, nursing strikes, sore nipples for two months, cracked, bleeding, the whole bit. i would have given my left arm to have a break for a bit. but formula wasn't the answer for us. mothers need to know that if they just stick it out for awhile, things almost always improve. formula is there for certain situations, but it should not be seen as just another convenience for modern-day mothers when breastfeeding is otherwise going well...isn't that what the formula companies are trying to get us to think?

sorry if i offend anyone, that isn't my intention. but we are all entitled to our opinions on this advocacy board, no matter how purist it may be. i do think it is wonderful that that mom in the OP was breastfeeding, but it looks like she is probably not that committed to it, and that's what i find disheartening. that assumption may be wrong, she may end up breastfeeding that baby til 2 years old or more, who knows? and i think the comment that the OP'er gave to that mom was great and very supportive and non-judgemental.