Can we talk about what's good/bad about Montessori?

[siddie]

I had a bad experience in a Montessori preschool recently but despite that I'm still thinking about enrolling my ds in a different Montessori. Can those of you with experience either as parents or teachers share your thoughts?
Some of the things I like about Montessori:
1. Child can work independently, no forced circle time
2. Boys seem to do better in the Mont. environment than traditional because they can move about the room when they want to
3. Higher scores on standardized tests years later, documented studies prove this
4. Child gets an opportunity to do "grown-up" things like hammering with real nails
5. Child learns with all of their senses, no worksheets, unique materials
Dislikes
1. Mandatory attendance 5 days per week, even for young children
2. Too much emphasis on independence, the teachers in my ds school wouldn't even read him a story. They told him to just look at the book. They wouldn't help him open his applesauce at lunch so he couldn't eat it.
3. Teachers not as warm and affectionate as traditional preschool teachers. I think this age group 2yrs9mos to 6 needs lots of hugs/reassurance.
4. No real standards for curriculum or use of the Montessori name
5. The particular school my ds was in was really lacking in instruction in character development. They also did not intervene quickly enough for incidents like biting or hitting. One child in my ds' class bites regularly.
6. Focus on the parents supporting the school (financially and as volunteers)yet no support of parental values by the school. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[e&r]

Well, I just typed a very long reply but it got lost somehow. I'll try again tomorrow when I'm not so tired (it's very late!).

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience! Here is a link describing what a typical day should look like:
www.pleasantvalleymontessori.com/second/schedule.htm
I'll try to get to your questions tomorrow if ds takes a good nap!
Ellen

[babyj]

I think each school is individual. I have my son enrolled in 2 AMs per week this summer and 5 afternoons (1PM-3:30PM) this fall. He won't turn 3 until the fall. About the mandatory 5 days, I spoke with the director at our school and she said I could choose not to send him for 5. I could choose to send him 3 or 4 days or whatever I'm comfortable with. Have you asked this particular school? Of course, I have to pay for 5 days, and they emphasize what he'll miss, but in the end it's my decision.

That said, I worry about sending him in the fall. I really love their materials, the way they respect the child, the way they let the child lead rather then teacher lead, but I just don't know about so many days. My plan is to send him in the fall and watch his reaction. He's attended one AM while I observed and loved it. However, if I don't feel he's happy, I'll pull him out.


b

[siddie]

Ellen, don't you hate it when that happens? Where in cyberspace are all of those lost e-mails and posts? I would love to get your input, hope you have time soon. I did read the description and the school we tried fit the schedule and physical environment. They just didn't seem to follow through with character development and respec on the playground. They couldn't keep a stable class or students either. It is my understanding that Montessori classrooms function best with a stable group of kids and suffer when there is a high turnover. The worst part about the school was the high tolerance for biting, hitting, and mean talk.

Baby J, yes, this school insisted on mandatory attendance. I was willing to pay the full tuition and attend part time but they said it was against their policy (unwritten of course). I personally feel that 5 days per week is too much for a 3-5 year old. I attribute some of the hitting and biting to stress behaviors. It also depends upon what else is going on in their life - have they been sick, is there a new sibling or other stress? I have found that when schedules are so rigid, the children can lose out on sleeping and eating properly. Plus, there is no one who can care for a child better than his mother, they NEED that at that age. I know many people have to work so a good preschool is the best option for them. I'm glad that your attitude is to watch and see how your child does with the school.

[chicagomom]

I found our local Montessori school to be alternately wonderful and terrible, depending on the teacher ds had. Montessori seems to have some amazingly good teachers, but some really poor implementation at the director level, where policy is set and hiring is done.

Ds's first teacher was warm, wonderful, the program was flexible and it worked great. Ds's second teacher was cold and authoritative and I saw several of ds's peers develop what I would consider significant behavior issues while under her tutelage.

When Ds's first teacher left for another school (one where she is tremendously happy), I got a chance to talk w/her about Montessori. Basically, her read was that each school's particular focus is dictated by the director/directress. So, if you want to evaluate the school, talk to him/her, and then talk to the teacher, specifically about discipline, cooperative play, and warmth/nurturing. Ask to see the goals for that class, and ask the teacher how s/he met AND failed to meet these goals in last year's class. I learned a lot from the directress, esp after she and I got into a discussion about co-sleeping and extended bf 'creating dependency'. One of the local Montessori schools specifies explicitly that all children attending their school must be weaned. But others don't care.

[babyj]

S,

If anyone said "mandatory" to me, especially about my child, that would really raise a red flag! As in, vax are mandatory. Yikes!

So much of the schooling experience comes down to the teacher. If the teacher isn't trustworthy or a good fit with your child, it doesn't matter what the school philosophy is. A friend of mine, who has lived all over the country, has done all kinds of schooling with her kids; public, home, private & charter. When I was researching pre-schools, she told me it all comes down to the teacher.

During my research, the Montessori school was the one that most closely matched what I was looking for. The director was very patient and tender with me while I cried on the phone with her, visited the office numerous times and met with her in person. I wish she could be my child’s teacher! Other schools felt too confining for my active son; didn't allow enough outdoor time, too much sitting time and/or were geographically difficult. I wanted to sign up at 2 schools, one M & one traditional, but decided that it didn't feel right for me to do that. I'm still not sold 100%. One thing that did attract me to M was that they don't need to be potty trained. I felt that alone, represented a willingness to let each child develop on their own timetable. I also liked how they did snack - the traditional school was so rigid about not sharing etc which goes against what we teach at home. Another plus for me was that a different friend, after HS for 10 years, sends her 4 children to the same school I enrolled in.

Again, may or may not send him in the fall. If we were talking 2 or maybe even 3 AMs a week, I'd do it in a heartbeat. 5 just doesn't feel right.

As in everything else, I'd say follow your gut reaction.

b

[Graceoc]

Well I would have to say each school really is different...

My DS started at montessori a few months ago. Our school does not require you to go 5 days nor do I have to pay for 5 days - we pay for what we go, which is currently 3 mornings a week. We do do them concecutivily since it is prefered by Montessori and I do like it that way. But I have looked at many other MOntessori's that are very strict about the 5 day policy -do I totally understand where you are coming from.

DS's primary teacher is pretty good with comforting measures - but her assistant I don't really care for at all! Not very 'warm and fuzzy' to say the least DS will have the same primary teacher until he moves to the elementary class - so that is nice!

Our school seems pretty laid back as far a scheduling goes - the kids get lots of outdoor time in addition to 'work' time and the teachers take time to work indidivually with the kids introducing new concepts. I really like that DS is able to work at his own pace and is happy there.

There are some BIG administraitive type things that I have a problem with at our particular school - they seem a bit too unorganized and some other things...that I am hoping I can help change.

[e&r]

I'll try again:-)

Okay,
I think that I spent too much time typing and for whatever reason if I take too much time my post gets lost, sooo...
I'll type quickly!

to address your dislikes/concerns:
1. Mandatory 5 day attendence-

Most schools do have 5 day a week attendence as part of their policy, and AMI (Association Montessori Internationale) guidelines do require that their accredited schools have 5 day a week attendence. That said, it does not mean that a parent isn't allowed to choose how many days a week a child attends. The reason for 5 day attendence is that alternate day attendence (M, W, F for example) or sporadic attendence (T, Th) can be confusing for a child. Since children learn by repetition, being able to predict outcomes based on previous experiences, it is easier for a child to develop a routine of school every day, except two days. Waking up in the morning and knowing where you are going and what you are doing (the child knowing him/her self, not being told by the adult) is really helpful for a child. Young children, generally, cannot keep track of a schedule where Monday is school, Tuesday is not, Wednesday is school, Thursday is not, Friday is school, Saturday is not, Sunday is not, etc.

For that reason, if you choose to send your child less than 5 days, I would recommend that the days you choose be consecutive days, and that they start on Monday (for example, M, T, W, Th). This is easier for the child to keep track of.

Generally, most children in an authentic Montessori environment would be able to handle it quite well, and should thrive. This is because it is not a restricted environment, but one specifically developed for the child without arbitrary "periods" and mandatory activities. To be honest, though, while most children would thrive, if you are home with your child then by all means find a program that will be flexible enough that you may pay for five days, but be able to keep you child home on Friday so that you have more time together. I would encourage this as, unfortunately, most children are not that lucky. Good for you!!!!

2. Independence-
Helping a child become independent means supporting them and helping them develop new skills and refine already aquired ones. It does not mean abandoning the child to struggle without guidance. Unfortunately, there are some teachers out there who make the mistake of trying to force independence, which really does not work. Children will naturally strive to become more independent, and the job of the adult is to support and nurture. It makes me sad to think that your child's teachers may be making this mistake. It is probably worth talking to them about this.

I'm going to post this now 'cause it's getting long and I'm afraid I'll lose it. I'll continue by posting again.

[e&r]

Whew! That last one went through. I'll now continue...

3. Lack of warmth and affection-

Well, I hope that this is not common. It certainly is not part of the philosophy (the lack of warmth and affection). This must just be the personalities of the teachers or perhaps a mandate from the administration. I have found Montessori teachers who love their work to be wonderfully happy, warm, affectionate, and stable people. While we would not invade a child's personal space without permission (for instance, it would not be common for a Montessori teacher to rustle a child's hair) this is not due to lack of affection for the child but is a sign that we respect the child and her/his body as her/his own.

4. No set standards/ use of Montessori name-

While you are correct that anyone can say that they run a Montessori school, there are standards that accredited schools must follow. AMI (Association Montessori Internationale) is an organization founded by Maria Montessori in 1927 to further and protect her work. They have a school accreditation program that is pretty strict. Look for AMI schools, or ones with teachers with AMI diplomas. While this second option hold no guarantees (people do have their own personalities and problems) there is a very consistent teacher training program through AMI. There is a link to AMI on my website cited in my first post.

5. Lack of character development-

Well, in AMI training we spend a lot of time on the "lessons in grace and courtesy." I think that this is what might be missing from your child's school. Are the teachers AMI trained? If they are, ask them if they are doing these lessons regularly. They should be happening very often, as often as once a day and at least once a week or two weeks.

These are small group "lessons" meant to address a specific social skill. They are wonderful and are what helps an authentic Montessori environment run so smoothly. An example lesson would be how to ask someone to work with you. The teacher would gather whatever children want to come to a collective (group). She (or he) would introduce the topic, perhaps "I would like to talk about how to ask someone to work with you." She might have, earlier in the day, worked with an older child who has already had this lesson or is already adept at this skill to help her with the lesson. She might elicit ideas from the group "Who has some ideas of some words we can use to ask someone to work with us?" She would demonstrate "I'll ask Sarah to work with me. Sarah, would you like to work with me?"

Part of this lesson would include how to say no gracefully, and also how to say yes. The children would be encouraged to practice this. While this may seem artificial and the language may seem forced to adults, the children truly appreciate these lessons and gladly come to them. To pictue this in an adult world, it would be the same as us learning these skills in a foreign language. We would not think of it as weird or forced, but would be grateful to be able to interact with native speakers on this social level.

The lessons can include:
How to handle a situation in which you hurt someone
How to greet someone
How to ask for more food at the lunch table
How to ask for help
How to excuse yourself
How to ask to be pardoned, how to apologize

The teacher should be alert to which lessons the children need, and anticipate ones they could soon need. The lessons should not, though, be given in direct response to a particular incident (not in the eyes of the children) as the lessons should be a safe space to try new skills or refine old ones, not a place where someone is shamed for not using them.

Again, I'll post and come back...

[e&r]

Sorry if I am giving you more information than you want. I'll try to make this next one short.

6. Expected parental financial support, lack of support for parents-

Well, while this one is only barely addressed in our training, it is commonly addressed in workshops I have attended. Maria Montessori envisioned her schools as social centers and advocated that schools be located in neighborhoods and that the teacher live in the neighborhood. Since the parents of the children in her first schools were fairly impoverished, she felt that the schools provided a social service to whole families by providing needed parent education as well as meeting the physical, cognitive, and social needs of the children.

I'm probably now speaking from my own experiences as a teacher and about my own preferences. I have worked at several types of schools:

The school where the whole family is part of the school -
In this type of school the teacher knows by sight and name all of the members of a child's family and perhaps the pets also. She/he may also know the grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.! I have worked at this type of school and while we always needed money and volunteer help from the parents, the parents truly (really, they did) felt ownership in the school and their role in the environment created for the education and growth of their child/ren. This is my preferred school, but I am comfortable with the more "flexible" boundaries of being this type of teacher.

The school where the teacher barely recognizes both parents, and perhaps only sees one of the parents once or twice a year-
This us usually the hallmark of a larger school where there might be a carpool line and the children are just dispatched from their cars to a waiting assistant. While many teachers are more comfortable with this, I find it unsatisfying. I know that not all large schools are this way, and I know of a very large school that still wants parents to walk their child into the coatroom of the Children's House even though it poses parking problems. The elementary-aged children are frequently just dispatched from cars, but the younger children make the transition from their parents in the sanctuary of the coatroom, a much more satisfying arrangement for young children.

A mix of the two-


Schools, even large ones, can make their school more community oriented by offering, in addition to the usual parent-education nights, social events for families and social events for parents, material making "parties" where parents can help develop some of the classroom materials and the teacher can demonstrate their uses. Also, it has been recommended, and I have used this suggestion, to have a basket by the door of the classroom for daily notes from the parents addressing anything that might help the teacher understand and know the child, for example:
<I>Sally's cat died yesterday. She's pretty upset. The funeral is this afternoon.

Andy was up late looking at the stars last night.

Sam woke up at 5:30 this morning, so he may be tired.

Janet didn't want breakfast.</I>

This type of information is so valuable in being best able to serve the children. It also, I think, shows that the teacher respects the parents and their relationship with their child. This simple tool is, unfortunatly, absent in many programs. It is worth suggesting it if is not already in place.

Well, I wrote way too much, but I hope that it helps a little. Please exuse the many typos, spelling, and grammatical errors. It is very late and I'm tired!

good luck,
Ellen

[weetzie]

Thank you for this information--I really appreciate it! I was reading the Waldorf thread and decided to look for info regarding Montessori schools and found this thread. Thanks!

[siddie]

e&r: Thank you so much for the detailed response. I can see now that a good Montessori school is really what I am looking for. The school my ds was in had some of those qualities but was really lacking in others. One of the other posters put it concisely when she said the school is alternately wonderful and terrible depending upon the teacher. It is too bad, my ds had already attached to some of the kids and even his teacher. Most of the problems at my ds' school can be attributed to poor/lack of communication. Unless I specifically asked, I didn't get any information on how my son's day/week was. asking at drop-off/pick up was awkward, too much going on. Grace and courtesy lessons were given once weekly but they usually used them to address problems that had come up.

I have found another Montessori school that is much more flexible. I will have my ds go consecutive days so he knows what to expect. I can use your post to ask more specific questions about how things are done.