Bothered by pro-choice comm.s? - Page 7

[DebraBaker]

Just in case anyone's curious...

I'm prolife

anti death penalty (but could argue the case for those who are pro)

Vegetarian(!!)

Teach my children about sex, birth control, and abstainance because I personally don't trust others to do what is (IMHO) my responsiblity.

I'm thankful I can stay home with my children but respect women's choice to work outside the home (will likely be going to school and putting Julianna in school for two days/week next fall so I'd be a hypocrit not to be respectful in this area)

I think we have a social responsibility toward children and the elderly. I believe welfare and childrens' healthcare should be provided in a way that ensures the children's needs are met (not sure how to do that, though)

In short (ha!) these things frustrate me as well!

DB

[ekblad9]

I'm with you DB. I share most of the same beliefs. I'm glad we're on the same page!

[Deirdre]

DB, is there anyplace you get us a link to those ads you are discussing? I think it is impossible to comment until I 've seen them myself, just as I thought it was impossible to comment until I saw (or at least read) the NARAL ones myself.

[hydrangea]

Debra, aside from the obvious one , I agree with you on all your points.

It is so refreshing to discuss this with women who think and not women who just take the party line (on either side).

Hats off to you all.

[mamaduck]

So many are pro life across the board. They believe abortion should be banned completely. These same people tend to be anti-birth control education, anti-sex education unless it is abstinence only teaching, anti-welfare, anti-moms working outside the home, and then on top of all that they are pro death penalty

Yes, this bothers me too. I'm jumping in pretty late in this thread - I'm pro-life and Christian. The conflict between respect for human life and aggressive condemnation of people betrays a lot of hypocrisy. Dh and I were talking about this the other day. Some people become so obsessed with the "cause" they are fighting for that they forget to love even the people they defend. Their fight then becomes empty of real meaning. This is a sorry state to be, confirmed even by Christianity. "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Lots of noisy gongs out there and more than our share of clanging cymbals too.

In my mind, a true pro-life activist would befriend and support single mothers, believing in their capacity to parent their children. They would provide childcare when they could, and open their home to pregnent women with no place to go. They would take in foster children. They would do whatever they could to uphold and facilitate good parenting. They would act as mentors to young people. The list goes on.

I would be hesitant to claim that most pro-lifers are of the intolerant and hateful sort. The thing is, they do get the most attention because they make the most noise. The people who are empathetic and actually work hard to improve the quality of life are not generally the most visible types of people. And they do understand the complexity of the issue, which makes it hard to simplify their position into catchy rhetoric.

[hydrangea]

Debra, I wasn't able to find any reference to the ads you were talking about on Planned Parenthood's website. Do you have any more information? Maybe it was another organization?

[DebraBaker]

I'm not entirely sure it *was* PP.

I don't think it was the ZPG folks, either.

The ads were on TV and just made me mad for two basic reasons.

1) there was an underlying "Children are a Burdeon" message and

2) That western technology was the answer to the problems facing "third world" peoples.

I *know* many here are very respectful of indignous peoples and that we (westerners) could learn a lesson or two from *them* (as opposed to a missionary attitude) so I was curious to read different viewpoints with regard to those ads.

They didn't address abortion per. se. they had more of a birth control and western medicine message but was (in a sense) related.

I *do* know that when women become more educated they tend to have fewer children and the quality of their lives improves. I think the key here is education and empowerment of women. In that atmosphere most women will have 1-3 children and a minority will have more but they will *chose* to have those bonus children.

Aw...I'm going on again....

DB

[Deirdre]

I guess the bottom line for me is that I will gladly stand in line to cast my vote against legal abortions when, and only when, the possibility that a woman will try to give herself one or go to a back alley doctor has been completely erased from our society. That will mean that all the reasons why women have abortions are gone: shame, poverty, fear, oppression of women, lack of support for mothers and children.....when these are gone I will support ending abortion, not the other way around (ending right to abortion and then trying to figure out the rest).

Since it seems that women have found a way to terminate prenancies throughout history (whether it was legal or not) I somehow doubt that the reasons I listed above will ever be gone....

[Deirdre]

DB, again I would really have to see them to comment. But, if indeed they were about birth control and educating women about birth control then I would have no problem with it. I mean, if by educating people we increase the likelihood that women will not have more babies than she wants or can handle then I am all for educating people.

It doesn't really follow to say that the "countries with more educated people have lower birth rates" (which I think people see as a good thing overall) and then say we don't support educating people about birth control, kwim?

I am assuming you agree but just didn't like the way the educational material was presented....

[pie]

Well I am holding in my head an opinion that will surely not be popular here, but what else is new?

News Flash: due to the current world climate, where children scrounge for food in gutters everyday, and wherein fat cat congressmen are doing away with reasonable public assistance and wherein men are allowed to abuse women at their whim, to some people, CHILDREN ARE A BURDEN.

[Pallas]

That's what I love about you, pie. You speak the hard truths.

But it's a damn shame that it's true. I wish it wasn't.

[Drewsmom]

I want to be able post at least one more time in the thread that I started..I'm usually out of time by the time I've caught up on everyone's comments.

I've learned a lot by reading the different comments, so thank you. I've learned that when we communicate respectfully that we usually can find a common thread that we all believe in to build on and that by doing so others are much more willing to listen. I've also learned that I do need to be doing more in the way of helping to educate others and support them so that they won't feel that abortion is their only option.

I would love to see a way that abortion was not legal except for those whose lives are threatened by the pregnancy or have the option for rape, incest cases. Is there some time of creative solution that can be devised possibly for this. The reason why I don't like ads such as the NARAL ads is b/c I still don't understand what other choice their advocating besides abortion? Honestly and not fasiciously speaking...please explain this one to me.

I lived in the Philippines for 18 months and when I say lived I mean not in "American" accomodations. I worked in areas that you would have seen on Save the Children commercials most of the time. I can tell you that it's not right for one generalize that abortion is right b/c "look at the poor third world country children, they don't deserve to live if they don't have a lifestyle like ours" (excuse me for the simplification). The children that I met had 1 pair of shoes, and rice and very little meat/veggies to eat to go along with that rice but consistently they were/are amongst the happiest people that I know or will ever know. I have also worked in the projects in NYC in Brooklyn and in upper Manhattan and once again each person/child I met is an individual and had great potential. I think it's wrong to legalize abortion and then promote it b/c it _markets_ it to those who may be teetering, trying to decide and who have unnecessary abortions.

I brought this discussion over to the Spirituality forum b/c I wanted to take it to my Mothering sisters that frequent this forum and get their opinion on it. I've been disappointed that others have traveled over here, who have rarely if ever posted here, and have used it as an excuse to advocate their beliefs to the condemnation of others who support a pro-life stance. I'm happy that most conflicts have been resolved, I just don't want to see the people who I came here to hear being chased off the board b/c they feel attacked.

I believe that Heavenly Father gives us commandments not to limit or restrict our Freedom but so that we have more freedom. I believe that His commandment to not kill others encompasses abortion as well, not just for the unborn child but for us as women b/c whether we're willing to admit to it or not it's a devestating choice for a woman to make that affects her psychologically/emotionally speaking. I believe that he doesn't want us to suffer. Women will always have the choice to end their pregnancies in backalleys because it's part of his plan that we all _have_ a choice. I believe that to not kill is one of His commandments b/c it interferes with another's choice.

I don't know at what point the spirit enters the body but it doesn't really matter to me b/c the point is that once a life is started in the womb that unless due to natural causes, whether that life physically resembles a person or not, it _will_ become a person.

I guess I brought this over to the spirituality forum b/c abortion often does come down to what one's core beliefs really are concerning a higher power. I do believe that we all existed before we came here, that we are born for a purpose and that we return to a loving Heavenly Father. I believe part of that purpose is using our free agency to choose what we will do. people _alwyas_ have a choice as to what they will do. Due to this conversation I choose to spend more of my time directed to being a woman's advocate and giving her choices and options other than destroying a potential human, and education to know that she can make anything of herself that she wants to be (esp. here in America, for me there are no excuses with all the opportunities that we've been afforded). My spiritual views do directly affect my views on abortions and the promotion of it.

It seems like there was something else I wanted to say but can't think of it so I may be back if there are more posts. But again, I want to thank those who have contributed another view. I am glad to hear your posts b/c they have truly made me think! I am always glad to and willing to hear things from another's perspective.

[hydrangea]

Drewsmom,

You may not believe it from the way I sound here, but there was a period of my life where I was seriously leaning toward the "pro-life" side. At the time I still didn't feel it was right though that a woman who had been raped or or was a victim of incest could not have an abortion. The thing that kept catching me though was that if only those women were allowed to have abortions, the burden would then be on them to prove their right to an abortion.

I am very thankful to have never been in one of the above situations, but I am sure that there are many, many women who are never able to come forward to tell anyone about what happened because of fear or shame (not that they should feel shame, just that that is how many do feel) or other reasons. Having to prove one's right to an abortion after an experience like that would be a horrifying experience to these women. I don't know, perhaps there is an alternative, but this is something to think about.

And what I believe NARAL is advertising is that choice should be remain legal. That women should have the choice to have an abortion or the choice not to have an abortion. This right to choice is constantly under threat in various ways all over this country. If you read a little on NARAL's site or the Planned Parenthood site, and you will see that this is not a right one can take for granted.

About the fact that this is in the spirituality forum. Please remember that this is Spirituality, not Christianity. I consider myself spiritual. I am not a Christian, however, nor a member of any organized religion. I actually explained early on in this thread how I see family planning fitting into my own spirituality, but I was told I went off topic. I personally saw that as very much on topic. In fact I posted it here rather than on your cross-posted thread of the same topic in another forum because it related to spirituality. I have not posted yet in other threads in the Spirituality forum because so far since I have joined, none other than this thread have had any relevance to my own sense of spirituality and I have not had anything I personally wanted to bring up.

Also, respectfully, there are other organized religions, even monotheistic ones, even branches of Christianity, that don't believe life begins at conception and don't believe abortion is inherently wrong. I think members of these religions would be surprised to find that they weren't included in this thread either.

Perhaps it would have made sense to label your thread "Conservative Christians -- Bothered by...?" if you wanted to avoid the rest of us others jumping in.

[Pallas]

Also, no one said that those children born into hardship dont' deserve to live. Pie said that they are sometimes viewed as a burden by those who must care for them, and I think that's unfortunate but true. We've done pretty well so far, NOT inflating others' statements. Let's keep it up!

As to abortion being legal if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest, I don't think that kind of restriction is workable. It would force a woman who's already been victimized to prove that she HAS been victimized, and that happens too much as it is. Not only that, she would have to prove it in a timely fashion, or the ruling would be meaningless. Or would you be willing to take their word for it?

[glad2bemama]

Sadly I do not have much time to post and I do have much to say.

However, I wanted to address Mamapies statement that children are a burden to some people.

I believe that " Every child/person is a wanted child/person ". Sadly they may seem a burden to some, but a pillar of light and hope to another...

I have MANY friends who are adopted-- probably at least 20+ people that I have known in my life and known rather well. They have often pointed out their gratitude to me that their birth mothers made the decisions that they did...

Let's be honest here... adoption is not promoted as a viable option. Nor is proper birth control or dare I say it...abstinence.

Hydrangea, it's not just conservative Christians that find themselves pro-life. While I agree with you that I do not wish for abortion to become illegal because of the burden of proof for the woman in regards to rape or incest, I STRONGLY believe that we as a society need to value adoption more than we do. We also need to raise our sons with dignity and respect for themselves,their bodies and their partners bodies. The burden should never be solely on the woman... and it usually is.

The bottom line here is that the NARAL commercials advocate abortion as the only viable option. This is extremely irresponsible. it is not a " choice " that is made like deciding what outfit you are going to wear that day and that is how it is being presented.

[Super Pickle]

(sheepishly sneaking back in)

Hi everyone. Sorry I left in a huff. It's so easy for me to take things too personally here. We're just debating the validity of *ideas,* not of each other as people and fellow mamas. I appreciate everyone who has honestly contributed, whatever their opinions. Wherever you stand, it's always helpful when those on the other side of the fence can point out the weaknesses and shortcomings in your line of thinking. I learned so much the first time someone (not here) got in my face and accused me as a PL'er of only caring about babies before they're born and not after. I had to ask myself, Is there any truth to that statement? What can I do to prove otherwise?

[pie]

so. who here that is pro-life has taken in a neglected or abused child?

Or I guess, pro choice for that matter.

We have.

Further, the NARAL ad is not promoting abortion as the only option. It is promoting CHOICE as the only option.

I was not saying children don't deserve life or even the best of life. I am saying that until we cure poverty, end slavery and are willing to take care of every child on earth that needs it, then abortion will exist, legal or not. Children ARE burdens to some people. You cannot tell me that they are not. And I am not referring to middle class americans. I am referring to Afghan widows with 7 starving kids and another on the way. THat type of thing. Why is it that most people only imagine abortion and the reason it existst in the context of our own lives, wherein a child could easily be cared for if the will was there?

[ando2]

I am a spiritual person, I lurk here in the spirituality forum a lot, but don't post very often.

My understanding of adoption is that adoption is HARD to do. It is also very expensive, and time consuming and some people just cannot afford the time and the money to adopt. On the other hand, in this country, if you are a young white female that is pregnant it is very likely that you will be able to sell your baby at a high price to a white childless couple. Also, getting OT here but not really, there are lots of wannabe parents out there attempting to choose the eye and hair color as well as the genetic traits of their future progeny. My point is, like abortion in many ways, adoption is a very complex and in many ways corrupt business. I'm all for adoption reform, but then I don't see that happening either.

[Super Pickle]

Good points ando2. Adoption is tricky, much more so for the prospective adoptive parents than for the birth mother. We would love to adopt some day but it'll take us years just to save up enough money!

One common misconception, it seems, is that non-white babies don't get adopted. I have several friends who waited from 10 months to 2 years to get Af. Am. babies. The biggest problem is finding people to adopt older children, esp. older minority children.

There have been some reforms in adoption. For example, now open adoptions are the norm, as opposed to 20 years ago when the birth mother had basically no rights.

Another thing to consider is that, tragically, in some countries babies are taken from their mothers to be "sold" through illegitmate international adoption to Americans. It's almost too horrible to think about.

[EFmom]

We have adopted two abandoned children and are very active in several adoptive families support groups. Yes, it is difficult and usually expensive to do. I have not seen the level of corruption that ando2 refers to, although undoubted there is some in the world. I think the comment about white women "selling" their babies is very hurtful to all involved in adoption. The baby selling she refers to in other countries is also much more rare than the media would have you believe.

Pg women in the US can certainly control the process in that they may select the adoptive family. They may ask for living expenses and for medical care for the pg and delivery, but they do not "sell" their babies. There are a ton of expenses beyond that, mostly fees that go to social workers, agencies, attorneys, court costs, etc. And occasionally, the birthmother can change her mind after all these expenses are incurred and the adoptive family is out tens of thousands of dollars.

Adoption is not the solution for unwanted pg, as those who seek to criminalize abortion would have you believe. As an adoptive mother, believe me, I wish it was. Placing your child for adoption is horribly stigmatized in this country--most young people think it is much worse than being a single mother without resources or an education, or much worse than obtaining an abortion. A miniscule percentage of unwed pg teens will make an adoption plan--most will opt to parent, whether they have the resources or not.