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Bothered by pro-choice comm.s? - Page 2  

post #21 of 210
Hydrangea - I'm not sure what your post has to do with abortion or pro choice commercials. I think it's great that you decided to have two children. Since that is the case and you know for sure then I would think some kind of permanant birth control would be used by yourself and/or your SO. I think there's a thread somewhere talking about large families and how they destroy the environment. However, this thread isn't it. While you are more than entitled to your opinion of large vs. small families I would just prefer that we stick to one volitile topic on this thread! Thanks!
post #22 of 210
Drewsmom, you stated my feelings far more eloquently than I could have...

Ekblad, your previous post was my thoughts exactly! Thankyou for sharing your story, too-- it was beautiful.

Super Pickle, I like your Pro-choice/pro-life analogy...

IMO, the commercials are WAY out of line... far too emotional of an issue to commercialize. I am surprised that I haven't seen them here in CA with this being such a big issue between the candidates


:
post #23 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by ekblad6
Hydrangea - I'm not sure what your post has to do with abortion or pro choice commercials. I think it's great that you decided to have two children. Since that is the case and you know for sure then I would think some kind of permanant birth control would be used by yourself and/or your SO. I think there's a thread somewhere talking about large families and how they destroy the environment. However, this thread isn't it. While you are more than entitled to your opinion of large vs. small families I would just prefer that we stick to one volitile topic on this thread! Thanks!
Sorry. I first brought that up as an aside to how I felt about the ads because it is intwined in my belief that abortion is ethical, someone responded to that aside, and I responded back.

You're right though, it is off topic and adds more fire to an already volatile discussion. I will take it elsewhere, but I confess to being frustrated that first you made a somewhat loaded comment about my birth control choices and then you asked me not to talk about this here so now I can't respond publicly to your comment? :
post #24 of 210
I'm sorry if I offended your birth control choices. I don't recall doing so but if I did, I'm very sorry. This thread has been somewhat peaceful so far and should probably be kept that way or it will probably be shut down. Thanks for taking your family size and the environment issues elsewhere. I do appreciate it.
post #25 of 210
As far as commercials- I personally get really uneasy when I see a health related one, whether it is talking about formula how it is as good as bm now with the added chemicals, the new vaccines promoting the saved time away from work that parents will benefit from when they get their child the cpox shot, how 'good' parents spray their kids all over with OFF to prevent misquito bites, or the ones that promote early early education headstart programs (like single inner city moms can't mother w/o a guide) Whatever the issue, if I se a TV commercial about something like that I am sure that the big money behind it is pushing something that people don't really need or even think they want it till they have seen it on TV all glossy and slick (yes even abortion) SOMEONE is making some money off a woman in need and leading them to believe it was their 'choice', Abortion and all women's health related issues are big money. Look at the hysterectomy rates and the man at the top pushing the hormone replacement pills. However- I would love to see the TV commercial with a toddler and the nurse with a tray of shots having the small child say "It's My body, shouldn't be my choice".
post #26 of 210
Since I had neither seen nor heard of the ads I thought I would go to NARAL's website and see what they had to say....for those interested in seeing what the ads actually say and the reasoning behind the ad campaignyou can go to this website:

http://www.naral.org/cfa/index.html

the text of the actual TV ads can be found here:

http://www.naral.org/cfa/ads.html

While I do agree that NARAL's ads touch on a very personal issue, I also believe that given the rightist leanings of both the administration and the Supreme Court they are in a position where they feel RvW may really be threatened. The abortion issue is the most politicized issue of our time....I agree with AmyB that it should be taken out of that realm and placed where it belongs: with a woman, her loved ones if she chooses, and her doctor.
post #27 of 210
Thread Starter 
That's why I'm interested in becoming involved with pro-life organizations b/c if they're going to do commercials like this I want well made, effective (not radical) and to the point commercials to counter balance them. I totally agree NM that they have the right to buy air time, it's part of a democracy and our freedom of speech. I guess that's why I'd like to see other commercials to balance out those being produced by NARAL. I will have to go to that link that Deirdre posted, thanks for referencing it, to get some more information from NARAL's standpoint.
post #28 of 210
Drewsmom, check out the websites for Shake the Nation and Feminists for Life.

www.shakethenation.org
and
www.feministsforlife.org
post #29 of 210
Thread Starter 
Thanks SuperPickle for those links, very helpful! I haven't looked at them indepth yet but I look forward to. I wasn't very impressed wtih NARAL's website and reasoning.
post #30 of 210
Deirdre, thank you so much for posting the NARAL site.

Those ads are definitely pro-choice, not pro-abortion, as I was beginning to get the impression they might from some of the posts here. They are not commercializing abortion. They are reminding those who care that our very rights are precious and we have to keep our eye on them or they might disappear.
post #31 of 210
NM, with respect, not everyone believes that it's a baby from the beginning. Therefor early abortions don't carry the emotional baggage for them that late-terms do.

So saying things like "Who will protect the babies" is extremely loaded and likely to provoke a discussion that will get locked.

Which I'm pretty sure you know! But I know you feel passionately about this -- the problem is that we all do, but from different points of view!

Mamaste,

Pallas
post #32 of 210
Pallas,

Why the double standard?

NM was responding to typical pro choice rhetoric, "I agree with AmyB that it should be taken out of that realm and placed where it belongs: with a woman, her loved ones if she chooses, and her doctor."

If one is limited to the pro-choice side of the equation and not exposed to the pro-life side then the issue hasn't been fully addressed.

Since the pro-choice rhetoric was raised and the pro-life response used by NM I boggle at the double standard.

I also note that no one wanted to discuss the more Mothering-ey concern that *I* had with some pro-abortion groups' depiction of children as burdeons to mothers and seemingly interventionist technological answers to problems faced by third-world women.

Just wondering.....

Debra Baker
post #33 of 210
Well, I suppose I didn't realize that anyone disputed that the decision should remain with the woman, her loved ones, and her doctor -- no matter which side of the fence you're on. Who else should make that decision, for heaven's sake? Whereas there ARE differing opinions about when it's a baby and when it's not. Didn't consider it to be a double standard under those circumstances. Am rethinking.

Btw, I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion". There's no group that I know of that thinks they're great, everyone should have one! (I take that back. I bet if I did a google search there'd be some Freakshow.com that would. Everything's on the net somewhere, dammit.) But you get my point.

As to the idea of "children as burdens," I'm not fond of that idea either. However, we both know that there are a lot of people, both in the privileged western world and in desperate third world nations that feel exactly that way. Do you think they should have children?

It's not as if the human race is in danger of extinction from UNDER population. I think anyone who longs for children and looks forward to the experience should have them. And anyone who looks on them as a punishment and a burden should not. And that's a loooooot of people. Unfortunately, being childless carries its own stigma, and I suspect some people have children simply because "that's what one does."

Wow, did I veer completely off topic or what? Yeesh! Must stop now, or I'll start ranting about People Who Shouldn't Have Pets, and Why Should A Cable Modem Be Affected By Weather?
post #34 of 210
pro choice is not pro abortion.

Is pro life anti choice?
post #35 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by hydrangea
....I am very concerned about the environment and the future of this planet and the people on it, and believe that one of the many things that will help is if we are able to slow down the population growth. I am bringing this up because this thread has been posted underspirituality and so far has only been addressed from a Christian perspective. My fear of overpopulation is strongly tied in with my own personal earth-loving spirituality so I thought I'd share this perspective.

This is entirely strange because I was just thinking "maybe these commercials are part of a growing "slow down the population growth movement" I sense in our culture." And then I read Hydrangeas post, which seemed to partly confirm this.

I don't understand how if we raise earth concious and caring children, (which BTW the can only happen if we spend money on educating pregnant mothers and fathers about earth friendly baby and child care, vs. spending money on ad campaining that pushes abortion and sterilization) 3, 6 or even 10 if you choose to do so this is irresponsible, not that you said that, hydrangea.

Frankly the push for ab's and sterilization without much resist from the general public scares me, aren't those the two most private sectors of a womans life? I am shocked that women stand for ANY kind of "being told what is best for her and her baby" behavior in todays world!

Back to the population thing. I was actually watching George Carlin the other night and he did a little humor about how we humans are so completely conceited and self-centered to actually think that after all our world has been through since the beginning of its existence, that we little speck of a nothing humans can actually destroy it! It was so funny. He said the earth, when it decides to will just shake us off like a bad case of a virus, funny stuff.

I know this is not funny stuff though, going on public t.v. (which we know almost everyone sees) and pushing ab's on young, confused and mostly important women in need of emotional and caring support from others. As a woman now who in her young adult years had an ab because no one cared to tell me I would survive being a young mother, or that anyone would be able to give of themselves to help me out, including my parents of whom I was too embarrased to tell... I can say now that I sure wish I had not been desenitized to abortion. I sure wish that the clinic did not make the choice seem so appealing and "easy". I sure wish that there were more programs for young pregnant women where they felt important, loved and supported by mothers who have done this before them... instead of those commercials giving young women a "quick" fix to "all" their problems of being unexpectantly pregnant. Who knows, that unexpected baby may just have been mine and others best plan and gift for our lives that we missed out on.

Totally IMO, I think that complaining or worrying about the population at the cost of derailing someone's individual life is more selfish to me. We can use our population concern energy to come up with better ways to care for our earth as best we can, while still putting womens needs in first place, IMO.

We should not treat these unplanned pregnancies as a "worldy" problem that we don't want affecting "our" comfy little individual lives, but rather as a way to reach out to women and find out individually, what is best for HER and her baby. My .02, probably not popular opinion but hey, we've all got one and this is the place to share it.
post #36 of 210
first, the ads do not push abortion, the advocate choice. Second, when the government stops raping women of support by 'reforming' welfare I will stop being so rabidly pro choice. One is indeed connected to the other.
post #37 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by Pallas


As to the idea of "children as burdens," I'm not fond of that idea either. However, we both know that there are a lot of people, both in the privileged western world and in desperate third world nations that feel exactly that way. Do you think they should have children?


Pallas, with all respect, this is part of the problem with abortion. Most pregnancies are NOT planned around the world anyway... Yet many of them turn out to be wonderful additions to a mothers life. Sure you have some parents or women who say "I am now ready for motherhood, let's do it." But the majority of pregnancies do not happen this way.

A baby can change your life, a baby brings a new beginning to one's life. How many of us here "planned" exactly when and why we decided we would become mothers? Personally, I never really thought of myself as the "motherly" type. But I have 2 children and one due in Nov. And I found out through an "unexpected" and "untimely" (whatever that means, as if we run the clock here on earth!) that motherhood suits me pretty good.

Here in the western world we are addicted to controlling our lives. (I can only speak for the western world because I live in it). I have so many friends over 30 who say they are not "ready" yet but do probably want kids someday. I ask this, are you EVER ready for the things that await you as a mother! (Even the most monetarily and emotionally prepared mothers go through the same adjustment and acceptance of becoming a mother). And I'm willing to bet that there are mothers out there who thought that a baby was the one thing that they wanted in life, only to find out that babies are a lot of work that they did not fully anticipate how hard it could be to be a mother.

If you know for sure you do not want to be a mother I completely understand that and I support it. Women must be able to do with their lives as they choose. We are free to choose and I remind myself of that daily.

But what can we really say of the "burden" of motherhood if we are men, or if we are not mothers ourselves, or before we take the plunge ourselves? Motherhood is on the job training. We don't know if we like it before we try, we don't know if we'll be any good at it and we don't know if we will be good mothers either. But the one factor that is constant is that a baby automatically needs and loves its mother because it is physically designed this way... and we have no way to emphasise how that love and dependence from a baby brings metamorphisis to a woman who may have never pictured herself with any desire to be a mother.

I am only saying that I think here in the western world we equate the "unknown" or "frightening" territory of unexpected motherhood as automatically 'unwanted', yet in my mind "unknown" territory is often how we go through life and "unwanted" is something completely different.
post #38 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by mamapie
first, the ads do not push abortion, the advocate choice. Second, when the government stops raping women of support by 'reforming' welfare I will stop being so rabidly pro choice. One is indeed connected to the other.
Quite right mamapie!

Really though? What of insurance policies that pay for Viagra but not contraception? What about all of the children that are already neglected to death? What do you think would happen to the infanticide rates after abortion was no longer an option? Who's gonna take care of all these "saved" babies after delivery? The mothers that didn't want them in the first palce? I think not. It's not only about choices, it's about a bunch of people that nobody wants. Prolifers want them to be born, but then also vote for welfare deform. How many people that would rather a woman have an unwanted child than an abortion would actually be willing to raise these kids? How about the guy at the nuremberg? website? How many unwanted children has he adopted? So it's all fine and dandy to talk about personal responsibility and conception or abstinence or whatever, but the only person that is ever truely punished in an unwanted pregnancy is the baby. Whether the mother chooses abortion or not...
post #39 of 210
Can people please reconsider the terms they are using? "Pro-life" intimates that the opposite side is "pro-death," which is truly offensive, or at the very least "pro-abortion," which in the vast majority of cases is false. As someone else said, there may be freaks out there who who are pro-abortion (just as there are anti-abortion freaks out there who consider it okay to murder doctors who will perform abortions), but the vast majority of those of us who are pro-choice are just that, in favor of a woman's having the CHOICE to either have a baby or not. Many, many women who are pro-choice would never even consider one for themselves, they just believe it should not be regulated by the government.

A preferable term to "pro-life," IMO, is "anti-abortion."
post #40 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by mamapie
first, the ads do not push abortion, the advocate choice. Second, when the government stops raping women of support by 'reforming' welfare I will stop being so rabidly pro choice. One is indeed connected to the other.
Preach it, Sista!!! I got the choir in the back tuning up the piano.

It just needs to be repeated:

When the government stops raping women of support by 'reforming' welfare I will stop being so rabidly pro-choice.

This is definately where I stand... as if you couldn't tell.
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