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Bothered by pro-choice comm.s? - Page 3

post #41 of 210
booby, I think sometimes you romanticize the unexpected pregnancy. Some people feel blessed by "surprise" pregnancies -- lovely. I'm reasonably sure those people do not seek out abortions. It's not there for every unplanned pregnancy. It's there for the ones that will tear apart a woman's life. And since I don't feel qualified to judge which women that will be, I must lobby for it to remain legal for all women.

Was mine planned? Hell, yeah! No, I didn't control every detail of the timing, but I started my family when we were emotionally and financially ready. I wish every child born to be planned, wanted, anticipated.

I am so, so sorry that you felt desensitized to abortion. No one should. It's a serious decision that carries its own repercussions, and no one should have glossed over that for you. By the same token, no one should gloss over and romanticize carrying a child to term and raising it to adulthood.

edited to add: pie, selu, et al: I sing soprano. room for me?
post #42 of 210
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boobybooby


This is entirely strange because I was just thinking "maybe these commercials are part of a growing "slow down the population growth movement" I sense in our culture." And then I read Hydrangeas post, which seemed to partly confirm this.
[QUOTE]

Okay, I was asked not to post about this anymore, because it was straying from the topic of the actual ads, but I feel like I should have the right to defend myself since someone else brought it up again. I posted about my pro-choice feelings relating to the earth because this was posted under Spirituality and so far most of the perspectives had come from a Christian perspective and I wanted to give my perspective coming from where I stand spiritually. Not everyone feels this way. Many pro-choice people aren't even interested in the environment at all. Many have many reasons why women should have the choice (as do I). What I posted is my personal belief.

[QUOTE]I don't understand how if we raise earth concious and caring children, (which BTW the can only happen if we spend money on educating pregnant mothers and fathers about earth friendly baby and child care, vs. spending money on ad campaining that pushes abortion and sterilization) 3, 6 or even 10 if you choose to do so this is irresponsible, not that you said that, hydrangea.[QUOTE]

I explained in my second post in this thread why 3, 6, or even 10, earth-friendly children use up more resources than 1 or 2 or none. I won't repeat myself, especially since I was asked to stay more on the topic of the ads themselves.

[QUOTE]Frankly the push for ab's and sterilization without much resist from the general public scares me, aren't those the two most private sectors of a womans life? I am shocked that women stand for ANY kind of "being told what is best for her and her baby" behavior in todays world! [QUOTE]

I am horrified by the idea of anyone pushing abortions and sterilization. I know there are those who do that it, but I, as pro-choice as I am and as much as I worry about the population growth, fully oppose any forced sterilization or any birth control or abortions being given without education about the consequences and options and fully support education and available methods of birth control and the option of abortion if necessary.

[QUOTE]Back to the population thing. I was actually watching George Carlin the other night and he did a little humor about how we humans are so completely conceited and self-centered to actually think that after all our world has been through since the beginning of its existence, that we little speck of a nothing humans can actually destroy it! It was so funny. He said the earth, when it decides to will just shake us off like a bad case of a virus, funny stuff. [QUOTE]

George Carlin is funny, and I am sure I would have laughed too, but I disagree with what he says. We may not destroy the earth itself or some form of life on earth, but we can wipe out our own species and other species. I don't want to think of my descendents dying a miserable death. I want this planet to be available to them for an infinite amount of time, and I think there are many things we can do to make that more possible, one of which is keeping our eye on population growth.

[QUOTE]I know this is not funny stuff though, going on public t.v. (which we know almost everyone sees) and pushing ab's on young, confused and mostly important women in need of emotional and caring support from others. [QUOTE]

These commercials are not pushing abortions. They are pushing choice. Not only that, but as I said before, many women in many situations make conscious decisions whether to have an abortion or not, not just young, helpless, vulnerable women.

I am very, very sorry though to hear that you had such a bad experience when you were younger. The fact that you were not able to find counseling to help you make the decision that was right for you really saddens me.

[QUOTE]We should not treat these unplanned pregnancies as a "worldy" problem that we don't want affecting "our" comfy little individual lives, but rather as a way to reach out to women and find out individually, what is best for HER and her baby. My .02, probably not popular opinion but hey, we've all got one and this is the place to share it. [QUOTE]

Whether you believe it or not, I totally agree with you here In my opinion, this is what choice is all about.
post #43 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by Pallas
pie, selu, et al: I sing soprano. room for me?
Always!
post #44 of 210
Ok, I think that this is turning into pro-life v. pro-choice conversation when in actuality it was initially a question in regards to the ads themselves.

Hydrangea, I will change my terminology from pro-life to anti-abortion. However, I do take issue with the term " pro-choice " as well-- as though abortion is an easy unemotional procedure.
How about "woman's right to abortion"?

The point that I believe was being made by Drewsmom and some others, seemed to be more about the commercialization of abortion without fair representation of the physical and emotional consequences. This is an extrememly valid concern.

Boobybooby, thankyou for sharing your story. That took a tremendous amount of courage. My heart aches for you. Your voice of compassion for those women that need care and comfort while having an unplanned pregnancy will help many out there-- I am sure.

For the record, I DO believe in a woman's right to choose an abortion, as I think that otherwise the burden of proof would be upon the woman even more strongly than it is now in the case of rape and incest. However, the information out there in regards to abortion and the consequences simply isn't there. I have had far too many women that I know bear the scars of abortion as young women. For those of you that have dealt with one and feel that you were well prepared for it, that is your experience. However, this has not been any of the women that I have known experience--- every one of them would change it if they could. None of them felt prepared for the emotional consequences and are still dealing with them many years later.

And that is the point that I am trying to make. The other side of the coin MUST be presented. Women must know that they truly have options-- that is what choice is-- options and the right to choose them. ALL of these options must be made available to these women that need them-- including a much stronger support for adoption.

Let's not dismiss this life altering event into yet another "man" made decision-- and that is what it is with these commercials. It is yet another attempt to "politicize" our bodies and lives. Instead, as women and mothers let's reach out and support those who need us.
post #45 of 210
DB, with all due respect, I do not particularly enjoy having my feelings about something summed up as "typical pro-choice rhetoric". I just reread your post and have no idea why you needed to qualify my statement with those words when you could have easily just quoted what I said and left it at that. My feelings regarding the subject are personally derived, I did not go to some pro-choice website and find out how to respond when confronted with this topic.

The thing that I find most frightening when I seriously think about the statement I made is that if a woman loses her right to choose, the decision will no longer fall into the hands of a women, her loved ones and her doctor - but will most likely fall into the the hands of a women and a back alley abortionist.

I will again express my point that I believe this is THE MOST politicized issue of our time and frankly, I don't want some white man deciding what I choose to do with my body (yes, the bottom line is, most members of the Congress, Senate and the Administration are white men). And I second mamapie, when they (you know, the white men) start truly caring about what happens to children AFTER they are born (by putting moeny where there mouths are in the form of education, healthcare and welfare spending) I may start reconsidering my stance on the issue.

I just reread the ads and I am not seeing where they are taking advantage of or trying to sway women into having an abortion...they are trying to make the point that as women we have a choice and we need to protect the ability to have the choice....

edited to correct silly spelling errors
post #46 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
Deirdre, you mentioned "white man" 2x in your last comment. Do you really think this is all put upon you by the bad bad white man? That could be interpreted as pretty racist. I sense there are many many African Americans, Mexicans, Native Americans and many others who are also very anti-abortion, and would love to see the laws change so that babies are protected. What is it you have against white men....maybe listening to Michael Moore a little to much?
NM, of course, I would disagree with the "That could be interpreted as pretty racist" comment as I am a student of Pedagogy of the Oppressed and the anti-oppression model.

However, I believe Deirdre was referring to the race of the majority of the members in the Senate and Congress, which any statistics will tell you are white men. And because it takes a majority vote in both houses and the signature of the President (also a white man), and/or a decision by the Supreme Court, it is white men who will decide the laws of USA...

If RvW is overturned, which is a real concern since Bush most likely will be the president to nominate the next SC justice(s) and he will most likely choose someone who has anti-abortion politics, it will be white men who do so.

And while many POC are anti-abortion, they can only hope to overthrow RvW through voting not actually writing and passing the laws (unless they are one of the few POC in the legislature). They have to look to their representatives to do that - who are (once again, the majority of) white men.
post #47 of 210
[QUOTE]

I am very, very sorry though to hear that you had such a bad experience when you were younger. The fact that you were not able to find counseling to help you make the decision that was right for you really saddens me.

[QUOTE]

Actually, for me more sad than not being able to "find" counseling is the fact that the clinics offer a so called counseling appointment, of which you have to attend, and it is nothing of the sort...

it's more of a short q and a with a psychologist (employed by the clinic), and signing a paper that you were told about the benefits and risks of abortion, (of which some medical risks are left out and emotional ones aren't even mentioned). As far as alternatives to the abortion, well I know there weren't any references to maternity homes, midwifery care, further counseling, mentoring, etc. And don't you think these psychs are trained to know which young women are in there and not 100%sure if abortion is the right thing to do?
Enough about me, this is not really about me.

Something I can't stand is "every child should be a wanted child", I see those stickers on cars and want to scream. To me that is more romanticism than actually continuing on with an unplanned pregnancy, even you are unsure of the future. I am not ignorant of how difficult it is to continue a pregnancy that "others" feel is not the right thing for you. Even if you are not sure it is the right thing for yourself. Believe me, there is nothing romantic about learning 6 months into a relationship that you are going to be unprepared parents much sooner than you would like. That statement about every child being wanted reeks of controlling other people and making them feel that if the child was initially unplanned, it is somehow unwanted. Because in America we equate the term "wanted" with planned and prepared for, this is what we teach youth - plan for everything, right? So the statement sends an automatic negative message to the woman when she finds herself in an unplanned pregnancy.

I agree that a pregnant woman using drugs, hurting herslef and her baby in utero because of addiction or external abuse she cannot get away from is a legit reason for having to end a pregnancy.

But I don't apply that same logic to a young girl even a woman having sex, getting pregnant and unsure of where to go from there, (and then to her surprise,) being bombarded with the logic that all women need to have finished school or college first, they need to be married, or they need to be older more mature, must have a direction first. I could go on a and on about all those clinic posters and commercials that reek of telling women how their life must be "before" having a baby. And I know it affects young thinking, even middle age thinking if you haven't accomplished all those things yet in life.

Sure this would be ideal, have all your life plan straightened out before having a baby, but that is just not reality for most of the women of childbearing age - at least in the western world where all of the "proper" preparations and accomodations for a baby take half your life to accumulate! (I am being sarcastic, my personality downfall )

I just don't like to se ads of any kind that sway people in one direction or another. As far as I know, we don't have a shortage of abortions in this country, or govmnt assistance in paying for one either if you cannot afford it. Abortion is the first thing listed in the yellow pages for crying out loud. Even if you decide to go full term and then give up your baby you can drop it at a hospital no q's asked!

I really don't think that people don't know how to obtain an abortion or where to go for info or to get one that same week if they choose to. I just think that plain and simple there are too many messages sent along with advertising it that sway people into making that choice. I think most people know they have a choice, many women have excersised that choice freely and are still complaining about it being taken away someday. I don't ever see that happening and IMO we are far from it.
post #48 of 210
I have not seen the ads you are refering to (yeah!)
But from waht you discribed -- yes, they would bother me - a lot.
post #49 of 210
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boobybooby
[B]
Quote:


I agree that a pregnant woman using drugs, hurting herslef and her baby in utero because of addiction or external abuse she cannot get away from is a legit reason for having to end a pregnancy.

Ah, so you *are* pro-choice, you're just opposed to advertisement? That makes quite a bit more sense. And not at all what I had assumed! (But ya know what assuming does ...)
post #50 of 210
It makes an ass of u and me
post #51 of 210
I really can't label myself one or the other, and I try not to corrall myself or others into their descriptive categories. . I know abortion is wrong for me. For me it violates what I believe in as a Christian.

And that's what saved me from even considering having a second abortion almost five years ago when again I found myself pregnant, unplanned. For me I knew that keeping my baby was the right thing to do and although completely unsure of myself and scared crazy, I knew that I would survive and be okay.

But... I know that God *only*, understands a woman and her circumstances and I do not think that if it is wrong for me, as a Christian, that it is wrong for people who make that choice to the best of their ability, given the many dire situations women are sometimes in when pregnant. Selfish reasons is where I draw the line really.

And lets face it, most abortions in America are not just poor minority women, or drug addicts, or abused women... plenty of your middle class teenagers and young, even middle age women are going for abortions every year because a baby is not yet "in the plan".

I feel that advertising abortion only further desensitizes, it further gives the message that if you're not ready, do what you want, forget about taking responsibility or sharing what you have with the child you conceived. Forget about looking at a child as a precious gift. Forget about the risks, "everybody's doing it", it's just a simple mistake, you can easily fix by getting an abortion. We all know the media desensitizes us, abortion ads are no different. But this is a womens issue that shouldn't be plastered on billboards and swept under the rug once they leave the clinic. It is real, life changing and huge, and different for every woman. It's not like choosing what type of laundry soap you use.

I know too many women who aborted that could have well afforded to raise a baby, or parents that could have shared with them to help raise a baby, or fear of tarnishing themselves and their families by becoming mothers out of wedlock. Or fear of derailing their lives too much from want they "want".

You won't see me with a picket sign telling women what to do, and you won't see me trying to publicly save the millions of babies aborted every year, it's really not my place to push my opinion on others. (I'll quietly pray for God to give strength, patience and support to mothers-to-be who do *want* their babies... but just don't know it yet). Advertising is however, all about having an agenda and getting someone to go with your ideas.
post #52 of 210
right on booby
post #53 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
This might get me in trouble but:Babies don't Choose to die
And who says they choose to live? And at what point do they make that choice as recognizable ppl able to make such choices?

I haven't seen those commercials, but I don't have a problem w/ them (in theory, since I haven't seen them).

If I, as a pregnant woman, choose to abort an unborn fetus, why do so many ppl have a problem w/ that? They're not the ones gaining the weight, dealing w/ whatever ailments come along, getting tired all the time, pushing this being out, nursing this being, taking on all the responsibilities a child brings (mental anguish included).

I think if each and every pro-lifer had to give birth to every aborted fetus him- or herself, there would be less of them.
post #54 of 210
NM, with all due respect, you are focusing on one point that I have made and trying to to make some big unnecessary deal out of it. In addition, you have actually stretched my point so far as to try to make an argument that what I said could actually be interpreted as racist. Selu summed up exactly the point I was trying to make regarding who will actually decide what a woman does with her body. I was not turning this into some big "oppression of women" or a "white man" issue, you did. It could not be interpreted as racist as I was simply stating fact, that white men will be making the decision. Because I don't like the fact that one particular group (namely white, and may I add, RICH men) will make the decision is certainly not racist. But keep in mind that what Selu said is fact, if RvW comes to some kind of vote, it will be "white men" making this decision for women of all colors, and I believe this is wrong. It has nothing to do with whether some WOC are against abortion, it has everything to do with who is making the decisions for all of us in this country.

Perhaps I should have spent less time mentioning white men (which obviously hit a button) and more time just agreeing with Pie and Selu that when the powers that be start truly caring about the women and children of this country (particularly those living in poverty) I will be more open to the possibility that abortion should not be available. When EVERY child born in this country can be guaranteed to not go hungry for one day, can be promised and given a roof over their head, can have access to healthcare, and be guaranteed access to a good education and the possibility of growing up healthy and strong then I will be open to the considering the possibility. And I will to add to that list when women on welfare are not penalized (yes, penalized) for having a child out of wedlock....

BTW, Selu, Pedagogy of the Oppressed - excellent book.

Boobybooby, thank you for sharing your story and insights here on this thread. I do agree that advertisements, on both sides of the debate can desensitize people to the issue. This goes for anti-abortion ads also. When I see one of these I usually think "what anti-abortion fanatic put that there"....it really does nothing constructive to help a woman in making what will probably be the most difficult decision of her life.....

I do find it interesting that you said you know women who have exercised the option of having an abortion and are now "complaining" about it being taken away. Are they "complaining" or are they "concerned"???? While you may feel that it is far from happening, those who work in the trenches (so to speak) do not think that it could be that far away at all. This was a huge issue during the 2000 elections with concern over who would get to pick the next Supreme Court justices. Groups like NARAL spend countless hours and energy trying to keep this choice available for women. If it were not threatened they would not have to do this....I doubt they would choose to spend a lot of money on TV ads if they didn't feel the need to get the message out to people that this is a right that could be taken away very easily....
post #55 of 210
I will agree that it infurates me that men make these decisions. They've never been nor will they ever be in this situation and should not be the ones to judge what's right and wrong. That is very bothersome.
post #56 of 210
I agree, NM. In my own household whenever this subject comes up it's like I'm automatically one of those physcho's that blows up an abortion clinic or kills a doctor. I would never even consider that sort of behavior and feel that the people that do it don't really understand what they're fighting for.

That said, I think that sometimes people that are on the "pro life" side of the issue are immediately seen as judgemental and closeminded. I think I read a while back that someone said that pro choice people are not necessarily for abortion. I can totally see that side too. When there's two (or more) sides to an issue it's up to the other side to try and convince the opposing side that they are right. I guess that's what these commercials are all about, huh? So should they be allowed? At the beginning of this thread I said an absolute "no". Then I think about all of the other crappy commercials on TV and all of the things they try to sell. Should THOSE be allowed? I guess in this country the answer is yes. Would the commercials bother me personally? Probably, if I saw them. Esp. if my kids were in the room. The fact is that they're there. They aren't going away any time soon. That's what this country is all about. I have to admit that I can remember seeing "pro life" commercials as well. I suppose those are offensive to some people too. Those may have bothered me if my kids were watching too. Then I'd have to explain all of that and I'm so not ready for that! How about if I hate all commercials! Is that allowed?
post #57 of 210
Quote:
Originally posted by ekblad6
How about if I hate all commercials! Is that allowed?
Yes! Yes! I hate all commercials too! That is why I had to go to their website as I never watch TV so the chance that I see their ad is nil.....
post #58 of 210
Yeah! We hate commercials! Maybe we should start a thread about that! I don't let my kids watch "commercial TV" b/c of all of the crap! I try not to watch either. If there's really something I want to see then I tape it and fast forward the commercials! We don't have cable so our access is limited anyway!

Glad to know we agree!
post #59 of 210
Yes! Down with commercials! A new bumpersticker:

"Television stops a thinking mind"

And may I say, booby, that though we are often on opposite sides of an issue, I have never respected you more than after this thread. I am so glad that you have a voice here.

Mamaste,

Pallas
post #60 of 210
One more commercial-hater here!

Lst week we were having an anti-commercial convo in my women's studies class and my professor mentioned that as more and more folks are tuning into TiVO and HBO businesses are going to put commercials INTO the shows.... product placement and the like.

Don't they already do this, I said. Yes, but it will be even more blatant supposedly.... YUCK.
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