Bothered by pro-choice comm.s? - Page 5

[reverendmother]

tessamami said

God has given us free will (the differnce between us and the angels)...

Just an fftopic note -- the angles have free will too....that's where Satan came from (see Revelation)

Also -- in the case of "Judge not least ye be judged"...the point is not to judge -- if that were the case it would be wrong for us to have courts. The warning is to not judge someone by a standard that is different from the one you wish to be judged by. But there is a difference is holding each other accountable or bringing to a brother or sister's attention thier sin (which is not judgement) it is calling them to repentence. Peter did this, Paul did this, John the Baptist did this and even Jesus pointed to sin and named it. We are called to speak the truth in "love" but we are called to speak the truth.

Sorry about going off topic --

Super Pickle
thanks for the great Proverb reminder

[pie]

We are called to speak the truth in love but we are called to speak the truth. I like that. I am not Christian but am a lover of Christ and I like that. Hmmm well.

Who is to say what is the truth and what is not, when it comes to matters that are not black and white? When it comes to matters like this one? How do we KNOW that our truth is true for all?

If we are going to judge we best be darn sure that we are totally right. And how sure can we be? Withholding judgement of others as much as possible seems a noble pursuit to me.

[DebraBaker]

I think something we could all agree with is that we need to have more opportunity, education, and real choices (especially for the poorer people)

We need to start providing our children with good parents(!!) so they have a good start in life.

We need to have good schools and we need to thoroughly educate children.

When girls are secure, know how their bodies work, and have real opportunities to continue in their education and have their innate talents manifested in rewarding careers there will be less teenaged sex, more girls in college, and fewer abortions and children in poverty.

I think all sides, both prolife and prochoice can agree with that.

I am not unaware of the concerns of "the other side" I think most of your concerns are valid.

I am not a typical conservative prolifer who doesn't care about these issues. I think they need to be addressed or the babies who are now being aborted will end up being born in toilets instead.

Debra Baker (sorry I'm late into this conversation I had a very busy weekend)

[member]

DebraBaker!

[EFmom]

I think these ads are excellent--very good in getting the message out. I'm not in the least bit offended by them. The current generation of young women need to be reminded of what the alternative would be if the anti-choice lobby is successful in chipping away at abortion rights.

If you watch ads sponsored by the anti-choice folks, you'll notice that in recent years, they've been distancing themselves in a big way from advocating adoption as an alternative for an unwanted pregnancy. They now focus their media campaigns on convincing poor, young women that they can manage to parent their children. Of course, the irony is that many of the same folks behind this are also doing their best to eliminate government assistance for poor women and children.

[ekblad9]

I think we should be real and realize that it's highly unlikely that abortion will be illegal in our lifetimes. I don't really think we need to commercialize either "choice". Like I said before, commercials are worth nothing IMO.

[EFmom]

I respectfully disagree. Abortion rights have been greatly curtailed, and given the current political control of the house, the White House and the SC, I think it's a very real possibility that abortion will become unavailable to an increasing number of women. This kind of ad campaign is useful information for raising consciousness levels in a naive generation.

[ekblad9]

*

[AmyB]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother


When you believe in God and that God creates and embodies every living human being it makes the idea of abortion nauseating and repulsive. However I do realize not everyone believes in God and does not see embryo's, fetuses, or babies as sacred human's with souls, so it makes abortion very acceptable to them or at least tolerable.

Yes, that's why spirituality is an appropriate forum for this thread. The notion that a soul enters the body at conception is a particular religeous teaching that is proven by faith not by science.

You may recall that Senator Orrin Hatch just came out in favor of stem cell research because his LDS religion teaches that souls enter the body sometime after conception.

Some religions teach that "quickening" when the fetus starts to move indicates ensoulment.

To those of us with different convictions about when a body has a soul, insistance that "life begins at conception" feels more like an attempt to imppose a particular religious dogma on society than an honest attempt to "protect" women or babies.

How could I ever stay quiet about an issue I feel so strongly about But whatever I say I pray it is in love and understanding and never in hate of judgement. Its just that any killing of innocent life isWRONG in my opinion. I'm sure most of you can understand that. [/B]

The medical profession has been working very hard to convince us that *every* pregnancy and childbirth is a medical emergency and that *every* child endangers its mother's life. Unfortunately, there is some truth behind that. Regardless of medical progress, every mother does risk her life and body for her child and at any point, a pregnancy can turn into a medical emergency with hard choices to make.

What I especially dislike about the term "pro-life" is that it values the potential life of the fetus more than the existing life of the mother. It assigns a moral absolute to what is actually a sliding scale of moral judgements.

When you ask "who will take care of the babies", my answer is, their mothers will take care of them according to their best judgement.

--AmyB

[peatree]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother


People have a problem with that because abortion stops a beating heart and kills a life no matter what stage its in. It is a death of a life or potential life. That is why pro-lifers are so passionate about trying to keep babies alive.

When you believe in God and that God creates and embodies every living human being it makes the idea of abortion nauseating and repulsive. However I do realize not everyone believes in God and does not see embryo's, fetuses, or babies as sacred human's with souls, so it makes abortion very acceptable to them or at least tolerable.

As pro-lifers (anti-abortionist)we understand that, but we must speak out as activists(peacefully) and share our consciences to others the same as PETA or other activists step out and share their consciences. Pro-lifers are no different, just with another cause that indwells them to the deepest level. (A cause I feel is the most ultimate as it is about the very essence of life and our very existance)

How could I ever stay quiet about an issue I feel so strongly about But whatever I say I pray it is in love and understanding and never in hate of judgement. Its just that any killing of innocent life isWRONG in my opinion. I'm sure most of you can understand that.

Did you say that just to be mean? I'm just wondering how words like "repulsive", "nauseating" and "killing an innocent life" effect the women on this thread that have had abortions. Does a women that has had an abortion feel like you have said these things with love and understanding?

[DebraBaker]

Even those of you who are Pro-choice don't want to be considered "pro-abortion"

Why, I would beg to ask, are you reluctant to be considered pro-abortion?

There is only one answer.....abortion *is* all NM said it is and more.

Women who have had abortions know this at some level and it isn't for us to either judge or to heap condemnation upon her head but abortion is an ugly thing even if it is legal.

Those of you who want women to have the option don't even want to see abortions.

Another thought to consider here. What if pro-lifers are right and pro-choicers are wrong?

What if pro-choicers are right and pro-lifers are wrong?

On one hand there are millions of killed babies. On the other people's right to choice might be taken away. I, as a pro-lifer, am concerned about women not having a wide vairety of choices. I don't want the government involved in my life. I am concerned about teenaged pregnancy and am deeply concerned about the potential for child abuse.

On the other hand I believe that what we carry in our wombs is precious, life created in the Image and Likeness of G-d. This must be considered and protected. I am not a typical conservative who doesn't care about born babies. I am eclectic in my politics but believe that children are innocent and they have inherent needs that must be addressed by civilized cultures.

I don't think either side of this debate is trivial and both issues need to be addressed or it will continue to fester like an untreated open wound.

Debra Baker

[Deirdre]

Originally posted by DebraBaker

I don't think either side of this debate is trivial and both issues need to be addressed or it will continue to fester like an untreated open wound.

Debra Baker

I couldn't agree more....

[EFmom]

Those of you who want women to have the option don't even want to see abortions.

I'd like cardiac surgery, kidney transplants and colonoscopy to remain legal. I don't have any desire to witness them either.

I don't follow the logic that if you support the right for a woman to control her own body then you must thing abortion is the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you are anti-choice does that mean you think forced childbearing is a good thing? It just doesn't follow. I personally believe that I would not have an abortion, but that's my choice. On the other hand, I've never been faced with an unwanted pregnancy, so I can't say that for sure. I've lead a life with a whole lot of support systems that many women don't have. I don't feel I have the right to make that choice for anyone else.

[hydrangea]

Originally posted by DebraBaker
Even those of you who are Pro-choice don't want to be considered "pro-abortion"

Why, I would beg to ask, are you reluctant to be considered pro-abortion?

There is only one answer.....abortion *is* all NM said it is and more.

Women who have had abortions know this at some level and it isn't for us to either judge or to heap condemnation upon her head but abortion is an ugly thing even if it is legal.

Those of you who want women to have the option don't even want to see abortions.

Well, no. For one thing, "pro-abortion" implies that one believes abortion is right in all cases. I certainly don't believe that. I believe that in certain cases it may be right and the mother should always have that choice. For another, abortion is an operation, and I don't believe operations can ever be taken lightly. EFmom said this so well that I won't go into it further.

Another thought to consider here. What if pro-lifers are right and pro-choicers are wrong?

What if pro-choicers are right and pro-lifers are wrong?

On one hand there are millions of killed babies.

Strong language here and in your whole post (as in "There is only one answer.....abortion *is* all NM said it is and more.")
Remember, this is your belief. Not an uncontestable fact.

I do not believe in God. Would it be right for me to say "There is no God, the bible was written by men, therefore everything you say is based on falsehood"? I may believe this, but to state it as fact would be insulting to a great number of people here so I make a point of wording things as my beliefs not as fact. This is why it is insulting to me to read of "millions of killed babies" as "fact."

[Super Pickle]

IN defense of Debra Baker....
I think what she was saying was that we should consider the reality based on both possibilities.

So, under today's legalized abortion laws, IF the pro-lifers are right and the pro-choicers are wrong, THEN millions of BABIES have been killed.

But IF the pro-choicers are right and the pro-lifers are wrong, THEN it matters not that there have been 40 million plus PREGNANCIES TERMINATED in the USA since 1973; in fact it's a positive thing because, supposedly, the option of terminating pregnancy brings us human dignity; equality in the workplace; less poverty, crime, and child abuse; happier families; and sexual freedom.


Now, consider if it were made illegal.

IF the PL'ers are right, THEN millions of babies will be saved every year from a violent and unjust death.

But IF the PC'ers are right, THEN women, for no good reason at all, except hat PL'ers got the power and are on their moral high horse, will have to be more careful with their sexual choices; some might have to choose to raise unplanned children; and some might have to choose an adoptive family for their babies.

[EFmom]

THEN women, for no good reason at all, except hat PL'ers got the power and are on their moral high horse, will have to be more careful with their sexual choices; some might have to choose to raise unplanned children; and some might have to choose an adoptive family

And a certain percentage of women will die getting illegal abortions in the proverbial back alleys.

[Pallas]

Excellent point, EF. The anti-choice contingent would have us believe that making abortion illegal would mean it would disappear -- but we KNOW, because it once WAS illegal, that it only drives women to the back-alley butchers. Except, of course, for the wealthy and priviliged, who went overseas for a cleaner, safer, LEGAL option, and would again. It's the poor women who ended up bleeding to death, or dying of fever, or sterile -- and it would be again.

That is why someone can be pro-choice and not be pro-abortion. I wish that no woman were ever in the terrible, stressful, frightening circumstances that make an abortion seem like the best option. However, as long as those circumstances continue to exist, I must defend her right to make that choice, and I cannot punish her by forcing her into illegal options.

Mamaste,

Pallas

[hydrangea]

Originally posted by DebraBaker
Even those of you who are Pro-choice don't want to be considered "pro-abortion"

Why, I would beg to ask, are you reluctant to be considered pro-abortion?

There is only one answer.....abortion *is* all NM said it is and more.

Women who have had abortions know this at some level and it isn't for us to either judge or to heap condemnation upon her head but abortion is an ugly thing even if it is legal.

Those of you who want women to have the option don't even want to see abortions.

Well, no. For one thing, "pro-abortion" implies that one believes abortion is right in all cases. I certainly don't believe that. I believe that in certain cases it may be right and the mother should always have that choice. For another, abortion is an operation, and I don't believe operations can ever be taken lightly. EFmom said this so well that I won't go into it further.

Another thought to consider here. What if pro-lifers are right and pro-choicers are wrong?

What if pro-choicers are right and pro-lifers are wrong?

On one hand there are millions of killed babies.

Strong language here and in your whole post (as in "There is only one answer.....abortion *is* all NM said it is and more.")
Remember, this is your belief. Not an uncontestable fact.

I do not believe in God. Would it be right for me to say "There is no God, the bible was written by men, therefore everything you say is based on falsehood"? I may believe this, but to state it as fact would be insulting to a great number of people here so I make a point of wording things as my beliefs not as fact. This is why it is insulting to me to read of "millions of killed babies" as "fact."

[AmyB]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother
Actually I said "who will PROTECT the babies" and if mama's can't or won't we certainly have slide down that slippery slope of "moral absolutes".

I think your conviction that you are the person to make moral choices for everyone else is exactly the core of the problem.

When devout Christians insist that abortion is murder, the notion of the "sacred cow" comes to mind. A "sacred cow" of course is a phrase originally used by Christians to make fun of Hindus who believe that killing a cow is murder.

And so what if I could potentially "save" a life by donating my body? By the same reasoning should I be compelled by law to donate a kidney if I could save a life? In some circumstances, maybe I would decide to dontate a kidney, but the decision should be mine. Clearly forcing unwilling people to donate organs would be an attrocity. It is only religious teaching that suggests it is somehow different to force women to donate her uterus.

--AmyB

[hydrangea]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother


What about if we said "millions of POTENTIAL babies have been killed?" ...or is the word "killed" offensive too? Either way you just can't erase the really meaning of the words.

Well, yeah, it is offensive. To call it killing is to call me and and anyone else who has had or been involved in an abortion a murderer. I don't believe that a fetus is a life/baby until somewhere in the second trimester. Therefore an abortion in the first trimester is not killing, in my opinion.

And to me the phrase "potential baby" is rather vague. Every time I have sex with birth control am I not negating the chance of having a baby? Everytime a woman decides not to have sex while she is ovulating is she not negating the chance of having a baby? Or what about if a woman decides she wants to try to have a baby and then decides not to? That was a "potential baby" that now is not going to come into the world. By your logic, it seems to me that birth control is the same thing as a first-trimester abortion? But perhaps you are against birth control as well?