sick sick world - need advice on dealing with it

[lilyka]

I was watching the news tonight and a story came on. the incident happened in Inwood IA, to too far from where I live, a very small town. The kind of town where the kids just run loose in the summer and no one worries because regardeless of where they arein town they can hear thier parents call them ya know. At the park, in the bathroom these two boys ages 8 and 10 raped two girls ages 7 and 10. It totally breaks my heart. 8 year old rapist!! That is just a we bit older than my dd. and the victim was the same age as her. (as an aside they are so young that they can't even send them to juvie. the 10 yo is on house arrest and it looks like the 8 year old will get off without so much as anything. I htink they should both be removed from thier parents homes. obviously there is something not right in those families. I also think they need som e intensive counseling, perhaps in patient for everyones protection.)

so obviously we need to adress this. Kids her age are raping girls. She doens't even know what sex is yet. It has never come up and I decided to wait until she asked. She isn't a terribly curious child though. but now we have to tell her somehow what sex is and that there are diviants who abuse people with it. I hate htis. I don't want her to know there are sick people like this. it is easy to protect her with adults. she is simply not alone with them. end of story. but gees her friends are mostly boys. (we are homeshcoolers so that seperation isn't there).

Ok so any suggestions on how to cover this information with my dd. i am at a total loss. right now she knows the word sex,, knows vaguely the penises and vaginas are involved and that sperm and eggs come together and who contributes each, that it leads to babies, it involves a mommy and a daddy who love each other very much. gees I just don't want to tell her that there are sick and twisted people who are out there. She knows there are sick and twisted people but she doesn't know that they are messed uo this way. but she is almost 8 and she does need to know that this is very bad and she can't let anyone do it and if they force her she has to tell. ahhhhhhh! I want to go bury my head in the sand but I can't.

[Piglet68]

It boggles my mind to think what would drive a 10 year old to rape, or that he would be even capable of such a thing.

[mamaduck]

Thats a really horrible story. My brain can't quite grasp it either.

I'm in the same boat in terms of talking to my child (the same age) about sex offenders. He knows about sex, though I suspect he believes it is only done when somoene wants a baby. But we are reaching an age where he wants more independence in public, and in a perfect world he should have it. But its not a perfect world, and when he asks why he can't go someplace alone... I find myself at a loss. Or when I have to send him in a men's room (he's WAY too big to go into a woman's room) I find myself wanted to give him advice on how to be safe (yell if someone bothers you!) but I find myself tripping over the words because I just don't want him to carry the weight of full knowlege around his young shoulders. I don't want him to have to know these things happen. I don't want to give him nightmare materiel.

There has got to be a book or something on how to explain these things to sensitive children.

[Foobar]

Is it possible to address some of this in terms of strangers? At 7-10, I suspect most kids are aware that not everyone is nice. I think it is fair to tell them that some people, not many, are very not nice and they may want to touch them.
It doesn't matter if it is on the arm or on the vuvla, it's not ok to be touched by someone you don't want to be touched by. Teach them what to do (scream, yell, etc) if someone does touch them that they don't want to be touched by.

When your child is ready for more information on sex, you can address sexual abuse then? Would that be an appropriate way to approach this?

( I am brainstorming. Goo's only 2, but my nephews are older and the 13 year old certainly knows sex by now and the 10 year old has known for a while)

[MamaChel]

One thing that I would have appreciated as a child was somebody telling me that it is MY body and that NOBODY can touch it without my permission. And if anybody touched me without my permission, it was ok to tell. I knew all about the mechanics of sex by 7, my mom wanted to make sure that we were not molested. She neglected to tell us that our bodies should be respected by everyone- no one could touch us without our permission. She just assumed that knowing what sex was would be enough. I never knew that there was good touching and hurtful touching.

Sometimes it may not be necessary to discuss the mechanics until your child is ready if you teach them that nobody can touch their body without their permission.

I was molested at 4 and again from 7-13, and date raped in my teens. Nobody bothered to tell me until I was an adult that I could say no and nobody had the right to touch me. As a result all my self worth for years was tied up in having sex- I learned that lesson real young- if you lie there and shut up, you survive. It was awful.

So I would caution any parent who is concerned about the hurtful people in the world to remind their kids that their bodies belong to them and that no one has the right to touch them without their permission. Teaching the mechanics is not enough. FWIW, none of my attackers was a stranger to me- I knew each and every one of them. While stranger rape happens in my experience it has mostly been someone who is at least familiar to the child. That is why it is so important to tell the child that they can so no to people touching them.

I don't want to scare anyone more than they are- the world is scary enough as it is. I just wanted to share some thoughts about what I wished my mom had told me.

[PikkuMyy]

MamaChel - just lurking here but I had to pop in and thank you for being so honest. Your story is a very "good illustration", sadly, of what happens when parents don't talk to their children enough about these issues. My mother went kind of the opposite and tried to instill, somewhat successfully, that sex was a bad thing, that you had to wait, blah blah blah. Even so, because it was so frowned upon, I never learned to be comfortable and ended up, as an adult, enduring similar "molestation" because I couldn't tell people to stop or talk about it.

I have learned that talking about sex comfortably with children is VERY important, but making sure to talk about both the good and the bad so that they understand how it can have two meanings - one of love/affection, and one of hurt, and know when to tell the difference.

Once again, thank you for that.

[Greaseball]

I read Gavin de Becker's book and there is a section about children who rape other children. I think we are used to telling kids that "strangers" and "bad people" are usually adults, and we shouldn't go anywhere with them, etc. But yes, kids can be the bad guys too.

I posted this thread about child sex offenders in schools:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=143304

[eilonwy]

When I was a child (4), I was gang raped by some older children (9-14 years old, I think). This was my first experience with sexual assault at all, but I thought that they were grownups. I was a fairly small four year old, and a big 9 year old might as well have been an adult. These were boys who had definately been abused; we were in a shelter for abused women at the time.

The idea of body sovereignty needs to be instilled in children at a very early age, in every way imaginable. As soon as your children are able, encourage them to care for their own bodies. Remind them not just in big ways but in small ways that their bodies are their own; for example, *ask* your child for a hug instead of just taking one. And if they say no, respect that. Reinforce that right, saying something like "You don't have to hug mommy if you don't want to, that's your right." Never force your child to kiss, hug, or even talk to someone they feel uncomfortable with, and discuss those feelings with them. "Did you feel uncomfortable when Uncle Joe wanted to hug you? You don't have to let him, you can tell him no." Teach them that not only do they have the right to keep their bodies to themselves, and that no one else should ever touch them where a bathing suit covers without their permission, but that no adult should ask a child to touch them anywhere a bathing suit covers.

Eli is only 18 months old, but already I try to respect his wishes about being touched, and I talk to him about his body in clear, simple, correct terms. Eli knows where his penis is, just like he knows where his ears are. He knows that his penis only gets touched by someone else when he's in the shower or having his diaper changed, but that he can play with it whenever he likes. As he gets older, we'll teach him more. It's an ongoing process, and it's got to start young.

[HoneymoonBaby]

When I was a child (4), I was gang raped by some older children (9-14 years old, I think).

[mountain]

Yuk. The only advice I have beyond what the above mamas said, just know there are good people like those here in the world. People that have children as their priority, and would never hurt them. And we are having children, so it's being spread as a movement. Shine that on to everyone you can!

[Bestbirths]

I agree that what would drive a ten year old to rape has to do with their own abuse that they have suffered. There are some very dangerous ten, eleven and twelve year old kids out there.

Some things we do to protect our kids.

Realize that you really can't protect your kids. If a criminal (even a young one) wants to get ahold of your child, and lay in wait and plan on it, and seek for an opprotune time to attack, they are going to probably be able to do it, no matter how great of a parent you are and what you have taught your kids, or how great of a kid your kid is, and how educated about boundaries, or stranger danger they may be.

Don't threaten, blackmail, or extort kids. This way if a criminal tries to threaten, it will not feel normal to them. Do not allow other adults to threaten, blackmail, or otherwise abuse us. This way we are not showing our kids by example that it is ok to be abused.

No friends are allowed in our home when we are not home and the kids are home by themselves.

We always meet the parents of our kids friends, visit their homes, and if possible do a little background check of asking nosy questions without being totally obvious. Gosh, if I could afford a private detective or a real background check on my kids friends and their parents, I would do it! Along those lines when you move into a new neighborhood....do listen to and actually seek out the neighborhood gossip on what kids to avoid. (I am not a gossipy person or gossip seeker-but this is the exception).

We don't send our kids to school where they may encounter these child criminals en masse. We realize that being homeschoolers can also make a child a target if the criminal percieves in them any social weakness to use to their advantage.

We don't allow them to go to the park or other places alone without us.

Most of the time we keep our kids indoors and in sight. It is not the same childhood as my dh had where children were safe to play outside without supervision. Those days are gone. The balance is that as they grow we have to teach them how to be in this world we live in today and stay safe. With 3 out of every 4 women they say have been rape victims, it ain't going to be easy. See my point about how it is probably not possible to fully protect kids.

Listen to my gut. Teach my children how to listen to their gut. Listen to my body. Teach my child to listen to their bodies. Like when you are around someone and the hair stands up on end or you get this funny feeling. Don't ignore that "feeling", act on it and avoid that person or situation. Practice this by every day learning how to listen and not ignore feelings.

[MamaChel]

There has been some wise advice given here. As for sharing my story, I feel no shame for what has happened and if my story can save even one child from the abuse I endured then I will gladly tell. I can only hope that I can equip my children with the tools I never had so that they don't have to live with the memories.

I know that I am not the only person who has been molested here- it's far too common to be unheard of and only by educating our chidren can we hope to break the cycles. I don't believe that everybody or even most people are bad, I also don't choose to talk to or expose my children to very many people I don't know very well.

My step children think we go over the top because we supervise all the kids while we are in public, they must be in sight at all times- even the 15 y.o. Nobody uses the restroom alone, walks into a store alone, etc. They don't have to like it htey just have to follow our rules while they are with us.

The same 15 y.o. who is upset that she has to stay near her parents in public was molested by a 12 y.o. when she was younger, repeatedly because the person who was entrusted with her care thought it was "no big deal, it happens to everybody." and "he didn't mean to hurt her." My DH pressed charges the second he found out and had to be restrained from hurting the boy and the caregivers. If I can prevent her from being in a situation to be hurt again, you can bet I will. No matter how upset she gets. She has more than enough unsupervised time as it is, we care enough about her to at least try to protect her. WE can only hope some day she'll realize that.

My younger children (2 and not-quite-done-yet.) will not attend schools, will not be left unsupervised, and rarely will be left with anyone not myself or their father. It will just be the way things are done at our house. I can only hope that it will be enough.

[Greaseball]

I vonunteer at a domestic violence shelter, and before accepting a woman with children, we ask her if her children have ever molested another child, no matter how old they are. Yet I can't imagine anyone would ask this of the parents of their children's friends... "Before I let your boy play with mine, I need to know - has he ever molested anyone?" I wonder if that would be a reasonable thing to ask.

I am shocked at how many parents today don't know who their kids' friends are. They don't know their names, their parents, where they live, or anything else about them.

[Breathless Wonder]

we ask her if her children have ever molested another child

Curious- does mutual sexual exploration count as molestation?

[Greaseball]

If it's consensual and the children are close in age, I'd say no. I think lots of kids do stuff like that.

In the shelter it's only been an issue when a mother has a male child over 12. Sometimes kids that age have molested other much younger children in a forcible way, and we can't have those kids at the shelter. So we put the family up in a motel.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by MamaChel

My step children think we go over the top because we supervise all the kids while we are in public, they must be in sight at all times- even the 15 y.o. Nobody uses the restroom alone, walks into a store alone, etc. They don't have to like it thry just have to follow our rules while they are with us.

But in only three years this 15 year old may well be living on her own, doing her shopping, working at a job. Heck, in one year she'll probably be driving herself places and may be working - and yet she still can't walk into a store alone? How do you seethis as preparing her to be a competent person living in the world?

There are horrible things that happen to children in park bathrooms, walking to school, at friends' houses, and in their own beds at night (think Polly Klaus and Elizabeth Smart). I don't think the answer is to supervise our children all the time until they're 18. Actually, I don't think there is a perfect answer, a way to guarantee that your children will be safe... but I think I'm increasing the odds by showing my child how to look strong and confident, how to stand up for herself, and how to be aware of her surroundings and trust her instincts.

There was a case recently caught on security video where an 11 yr old willingly walked off with a strange man and was murdered - my kid wouldn't do that. She wouldn't be out behind an empty carwash alone at night either... Kids who have internalized the understanding that they should obey adults (or bigger kids) are the most vulnerable, I think. I think every parent should explicitly tell his or her children that it's okay to yell and fight and make a fuss if you think someone is trying to kidnap you or hurt you - even if it turns out that you were wrong, it's still okay.

Seven year olds should not be at a park bathroom alone, or with another child. Most 10 year olds shouldn't be, either. But there has to be a transition from total parental responsibility for a child's safety to the child learning to keep herself safe - and it shouldn't happen suddenly at 18, or even 16, imo.

I was molested repeatedly as a child, and later... I imagine I was giving off really strong "perfect victim" vibes. I first attempted suicide at 6. I'm not naive enough to think these things don't happen... but I'm also not going to live my life based on fear.

Dar

[Bestbirths]

Curious- does mutual sexual exploration count as molestation?

No, it doesn't. We are not talking about "Playing Doctor" here. Even mutual sexual exploration of children under 10 with a sibling within like 2-4 years of age is not considered incest, either. What I am talking about is children who have been severely sexually abused and at an early age have been trained to be sophisticated sociopathic criminals. I am talking about violent forcible sexual assault, with threatening, coersion, blackmail, all from a little cherub faced kid.

[Greaseball]

I don't see anything wrong with supervision - the old "Where are you going/when will you be back/how can I reach you." I think even teens should have to provide that information.

But it doesn't save everyone...I was one of those kids who was never allowed to do anything or go anywhere, and my mom told me it was because I was a girl and it wouldn't be safe. I had to come straight home after school and stay there, while my brother was allowed to join after-school clubs and go to friends' houses. (This was in high school, BTW.) I wasn't allowed to go to the mall for more than an hour, and my mom had to pick me up. I had to let her know if I was going down the street, and we lived in a nice neighborhood. All this didn't stop me from being victimized. I never learned anything about self-protection or predators; all I was told was "That happens to girls who are bad and who hang out on the streets after school, so if you just be good and come straight home you'll be safe." Doesn't work that way.

[Bestbirths]

Most 10 year olds shouldn't be, either. But there has to be a transition from total parental responsibility for a child's safety to the child learning to keep herself safe - and it shouldn't happen suddenly at 18, or even 16, imo.

I agree Dar! Would you care to share what you mean by putting off "Perfect victim vibes". What are they and how can we teach ourselves and our kids not to put those vibes out?

[Greaseball]

I don't believe in blaming victims for putting out "vibes." I don't think there are victim vibes; I think there are a lot of perverts. We should be focusing on how we can get perverts to un-pervert themselves, not on how we can get innocent women and children to change things about themselves that don't even exist.

I would never tell a woman who had been raped that she must have put out a vibe and needed to stop doing it.