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Whats the big deal about signing the no-vax paper at the dr? And why no blood tests?  

post #1 of 34
5/30/04 at 2:42am
Thread Starter 
This may be a silly question but I'll ask anyway, Im not trying to start anything I honestly am wondering if Im missing something...
What is the big deal about signing the paper that the drs ask you to sign when you refuse vax? My ds's dr told me the AAP recommended that they have everyone sign it, blah blah blah... But from what I read all it says is that there are risks to not vaccinating and that the dr has advised you to get the shots but you declined.
I guess I dont see that this paper carries so much wieght anywhere. Or does it? Someone please let me know. Is it a matter of the point of it and your feelings on the whole issue that make it a big deal? Is it standing up for your beliefs? Just the fact that its wrong? If you are thinking that the medical system is crap (which I do) then why worry about being seen or written down in the med. records as "refusing" or having this paper on file as I have seen some people say concerned them?
I agree its crap and political bs but does it really matter, how many other pointless peices of paper are signed everyday? I did ask him that if I took his advice and vaxed would he sign a reciprical release to me taking full responsibility for any reactions/damage from the vaccines my son had just to see his reaction even though I planned to sign his. Lol. He stuttered, his eyes fluttered and he finally managed to splutter that he didnt think that this was going to work out. "This" being him being my sons pediatrician. I have decided that I do not want him being my ds's pedi but that dosent have anything to do ith the paper. I just dont feel comfortable that if my son were very sick that he would be capable of treating him or have the appropriate attitude to do so seeing how he would view it if he did get a ""vaccine preventable disease"". But the paper didnt really effect that, since I have signed one for the previous dr. as well and didnt have these feelings.


Anyway....

Ok Question number two: Why would you be against blood tests?
I see alot of posts refering to not wanting drs to take blood from their kids. I was told the last time I took my son that Medicaid required that they test for lead at this appointment. Medicaid adds a whole new aspect as it severly limits the dr choices (none accepting new patients) you have and I cannot afford to find a friendly freethinking dr. as I wish. So you have to do what they ask or they drop you. Ds 7mo. had a finger stick which he didnt even cry for and didnt even seem uncomfortable. Anyway this is what got me thinking about seeing alot of people talking not having blood tests done on their kids. I know some of the tests require a full blood test though. Is it just not wanting to expose your child to traumatic events or something more that Im not thinking of?...


Thanks
post #2 of 34
5/30/04 at 3:45am
If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.
post #3 of 34
5/30/04 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi
If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.
This is my beef with the form. I refuse to sign a form insinuating that I'm neglectful of my children in any way. Not only am I concerned that such a form could be used against a parent at a later time, but I also feel that I am a parent who takes great pride in making informed decisions in regards to my children. I refuse to sign a paper contradicting that.

As for blood tests, my children have never needed a CBC or any such test. They've had their iron checked and such. I guess it would depend on what the blood test was looking for. I've never refused one as it has never been brought up.
post #4 of 34
5/30/04 at 11:27am
I would refuse to sign that form since it puts the parent in the wrong place - the defensive.

Doctors/medical science has never proven to me how vaccinations really work, nor why everybody needs them.

I have refused vaccinations since there is no science behind them. The form also states that I know I am putting other children and people at risk - ? I am? How is that possible? That is not even a recognized problem according to the germ theory that vaccination is based on.

I would not sign anything as wrong as this form.
post #5 of 34
5/30/04 at 1:51pm
"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

This is such a loaded paragraph. Why would anyone sign a form saying that they're knowingly endangering the health and life of their child? It's a signed statement that you're abusing/neglecting your kid!

(I don't believe it's abuse/neglect, but by the way it's worded, that's what parents are admitting to.)

The paper I'd like to see is the one the doctor signs when he gives the vaccines. The one that says, "I know that giving your child this vaccine may endanger his life or cause permanent damange to his body, but I'm recommending it anyway."

I'm not sure what blood tests the op is referring to. I'm not opposed to all blood tests, but we don't do anything "routinely," only on as "as needed" basis.
post #6 of 34
5/30/04 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi
If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.

wow I didnt know some forms said that. All mine said was if there was an outbrake my child would have to miss school/daycare and not be able to make up those days.

but I signed a religious exemption thing at the health department
post #7 of 34
5/30/04 at 2:32pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah, you guys are right. I thought the same thing that iit wasnt true and I didnt feel like I was putting my child in danger but I felt I didnt have a choice about signing the paper as none of the available drs would consent to being my sons dr if I refused to sign. I have also talked to CPS and the court system about this issue as well as I had the same concerns about it being used against me. I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you. Also I recently went through a custody battle and was investigated by the court via childrens court services and a court appointed guardian ad litem, of whom I discussed this with. She told me that for me not to sign the form and not have the kids going regularly to a pedi would be seen as neglectful and that it was fine to not get the shots as long as I was documented as opposing them consientiously(SP) and discussing it with a pedi rather than refusing to sign the form or not taking the kids to the dr. As I wasnt at the time taking the kids for their "well child visits" as that seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.
The cps person that I spoke with had the same thing to say about it.
Since I am recently a single mom we are on Medicaid and I have no money to go to a dr of my choosing as well as the fact that there are no drs taking new medicaid patients at this time in my area.
I guess it depends on your situation, I wish I could afford to not sign the form and stand up for what I believe. I really wish I could but with xdh trying to find a reason to get the kids taken from me I guess I have to play the game.

Also I am thinking as well that my form didnt say "I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."
I dont remember anything like that,
I will have to ask for a copy of it.
post #8 of 34
5/30/04 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommyCat
Yeah, you guys are right. I thought the same thing that iit wasnt true and I didnt feel like I was putting my child in danger but I felt I didnt have a choice about signing the paper as none of the available drs would consent to being my sons dr if I refused to sign. I have also talked to CPS and the court system about this issue as well as I had the same concerns about it being used against me. I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you. Also I recently went through a custody battle and was investigated by the court via childrens court services and a court appointed guardian ad litem, of whom I discussed this with. She told me that for me not to sign the form and not have the kids going regularly to a pedi would be seen as neglectful and that it was fine to not get the shots as long as I was documented as opposing them consientiously(SP) and discussing it with a pedi rather than refusing to sign the form or not taking the kids to the dr. As I wasnt at the time taking the kids for their "well child visits" as that seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.
The cps person that I spoke with had the same thing to say about it.
Since I am recently a single mom we are on Medicaid and I have no money to go to a dr of my choosing as well as the fact that there are no drs taking new medicaid patients at this time in my area.
I guess it depends on your situation, I wish I could afford to not sign the form and stand up for what I believe. I really wish I could but with xdh trying to find a reason to get the kids taken from me I guess I have to play the game.

Also I am thinking as well that my form didnt say "I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."
I dont remember anything like that,
I will have to ask for a copy of it.
A better alternative would be to draw up your own vaccine refusal form.

Something to the effect of the dr has discussed vaccines with you and you are unable to consent to vaccines at this time.

They have their documented "refusal" and you don't sign a form that may imply you are "endangering" your children.

In our state statutes, you can find this paragraph,

The 2003 Florida Statutes

Title XLVIII
K-20 EDUCATION CODE Chapter 1003
PUBLIC K-12 EDUCATION View Entire Chapter

1003.22 School-entry health examinations; immunization against communicable diseases; exemptions; duties of Department of Health.--

(6)(a) No person licensed by this state as a physician or nurse shall be liable for any injury caused by his or her action or failure to act in the administration of a vaccine or other immunizing agent pursuant to the provisions of this section if the person acts as a reasonably prudent person with similar professional training would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.


(b) No member of a district school board, or any of its employees, or member of a governing board of a private school, or any of its employees, shall be liable for any injury caused by the administration of a vaccine to any student who is required to be so immunized or for a failure to diagnose scoliosis pursuant to the provisions of this section.

If vaccines are so safe, why are these statements necessary?
post #9 of 34
5/30/04 at 5:15pm
Ditto to the above. Draw up your own form. You dont have to just flat out refuse, just go prepared with your own form stating your refusal. It covers their butt like they want and you are not signing lies and going against yourself.
post #10 of 34
5/30/04 at 6:19pm
I have a couple questions in reguards to signing a form for refusing vaxes. Do you have to sign it? What will happen if you refuse to sign it? Should I bring an exemption form (in NC you don't have to file the exemption with the state you just have to have a copy for whom ever you are giving the exemption to)?

We go in for Tristan's 6 month well baby which I am excited for so they can take his weight and measurments. But I am scared. Last appointment I denied 2 of his vaxes but got the other two claiming that I wanted to vax on a delayed schedule. But now when I go in I am going to refuse all vases so I am expecting a big ta do from the Peds office (we see a different doc every time because it is a big practice).

Anyways... any advice would be great. I am extremely nervous but very proud to claim no vax status (does that make sence) to my doctor.
post #11 of 34
5/30/04 at 11:46pm
We no longer go to the Ped. He hasnt been sick so there hasnt been a need. i take his measurements myself and weigh him on the electronic scale of my granddads store
post #12 of 34
5/31/04 at 12:18am
I never heard of that form. When we got a new ped ('cause our other one moved out of state) I just said on the pt info form that our DD was not vax per parent's decision. I would think that is clear enough that we made that decision. I think drawing up your own form would be a better idea too, but I have a feeling that if these docs were so adamant about you signing their form, they would not have accepted a substitute.

I agree that not having a ped for your child is a red flag for CPS but I am surprised that you could not find one doc in your area who would accept you without this document. If that were me, I think I would have consulted an attorney.

I don't know about the blood test issue. I don't see why anyone would need to test a child for anything unless they have good reason to suspect an illness/risk. My guess about the lead test is the correlation between low-income families and at-risk housing (old apts w/lead-based paint). Just my guess. Doesn't mean it's necessary at all. I think sometimes one can get thrown into a category that comes with all sorts of routine stuff. :

Hope all goes well for you and your DS.
post #13 of 34
5/31/04 at 12:20am
I've never heard about this form :
I've refused 2 vaxes and never signed anything.
post #14 of 34
5/31/04 at 12:59am
Thread Starter 
hunnybumm
Well my experience has been that should you refuse to sign the form the dr refuses to be your pedi. I am pretty confident also that they would not accept my revised version, either. It all sounds good here and is the way it should be but in real life they dont need us, if we walk out the door someone else is walking in at the same time. I may end up kicking myself later but im not that worried about having signed the paper at this point. I think its a good idea to already have a relationship with a pedi for your child even if you never plan to take your child. You never know when something unexpected and serious will happen and you really do need them, and a crisis is not the time to find out if you feel comfortable with their capabilities in treating your child or to run around making yourself crazy trying to find a dr or insurance and all the complications that that involves these days, kwim?

As for your dr visit coming up be prepared for a textbook dead baby story. Usually it goes something like "just this/last year a baby from this/a nearby clinic died of whooping cough/whatever" Or some other disease horrors. Just brush up the night before on your research youve been doing so you wont be caught off guard and you wont be intimidated so easily by their scare tactics and fear mongering. I think it is definantly pointless to debate or even explain your reasons to them in depth, this will just cause you more stress. I would just look interested in what they are saying, nod my head, maybe say "I didnt know that" or "you may be right". Tell them you are really going to look into what they told you, or something else that strokes the huge dr ego. Kwim? Just say your unsure yet about it and you would feel more comfortable waiting even if you are already sure. That way no one is on the defensive or needing to prove their point. Im sure youre still researching it as most of us around here do so it wont even be a lie.
I know how much fun it can be just to go get the baby measured and weighed so dont stress yourself out about the shots.
post #15 of 34
5/31/04 at 2:01am
THANKS MOMMYCAT... LOVE THE NAME BTW... ITS LATE SO I CANT SAY MORE

omg... sorry for caps
post #16 of 34
5/31/04 at 2:17am
I have Medicaid too and I've never signed a waiver form for shots. I guess it's DR to DR, but it just seems silly. We did have our first ped fire us though and we had to get a new one. She's great though! Is Medicaid requiring the lead test or the state? Some states requite the test b/c the area is generally high in lead, as is our state. My son just had a cbc done and a lead test (I forgot to ask about the cbc) at his 12 mos appt. We live in a house that is over 100 yrs old and I have no idea about our soil or water. I hope you figure things out and things go well.
post #17 of 34
5/31/04 at 3:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepeach80
We did have our first ped fire us though and we had to get a new one.
: : :

Im sorry I HAD to laugh, I just pictured Donald Trump as your Ped. Saying : "Your Fired!"

We have Medicaid too and I have a Ped who is VERY old fashioned, being that he *is* 80 something. We just dont go to him unless DS is sick, which is never.
post #18 of 34
5/31/04 at 9:52am
I had our current ped before going on medicaid(no longer on medicaid).I have never had to sign any vaccine refusal form.I was not even asked why I did not vaccinate.Very simple.I agree that the form as is makes non-vaccination sould like medical neglect. Having dealt with CPS I would not put myself in that situation,though ofcourse CPS can pretty much do anything if they set their sites on you!
post #19 of 34
5/31/04 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommyCat
I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you.
Depends. If you have an exemption then you're legally covered. But if it appears that you simply haven't gotten the vaxes, then it's considered medical neglect. This may vary from state to state, but I've seen many, many families taken to court over this.

Rather than signing something saying that I'm aware that I'm putting my child in danger, I'd be sure to have exemption papers in order and give the doc a copy of that if he asked me to sign anything. This form from the AAP is something that they *recommend* doctors have their patients sign, it's not required by law. Since most (all?) states have legally valid exemption options, (which don't require that you cop to neglect) I'd give the doc a copy of that if he required something for his files.
post #20 of 34
5/31/04 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEEPAE
We no longer go to the Ped. He hasnt been sick so there hasnt been a need. i take his measurements myself and weigh him on the electronic scale of my granddads store
And when he grows, you don't try to stop him now, do you? :LOL

I'm all with you, let the kid grow and gain on his own. No forceing it no stopping it, just the way it comes naturally. That's the way I raised three kids and they are all healthy adults now. (And one of them is a doctor...)
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