Okay - cliche questions but I gotta ask the aetheists

[goodcents]

I know. I know. I am sure you get asked this all the time. But I don't *really* know any true aetheists - at least not to my knowledge.

So can you please share......

If you don't believe in God - how do you think we got here? What do you think we are doing here?

Do you think we are just byproducts of primordial soup? If so, where do you think the primordial soup came from?

Thanks in advance. And P.S. I am not here to bash or flame - I am really curious to learn.

[weetzie]

I am an athiest, so here is my answer.

Evolution. So yes, I do believe in the primordial soup

I do not know how it got here, except that there were the right environmental and chemical conditions that led to the ooup being created. Its interesting, as I think about this question, I have realized that this really isnt important to me. I really don't care how we got here. But that could just be my personality and have nothing to do with being an athiest.

[goodcents]

"Its interesting, as I think about this question, I have realized that this really isnt important to me. I really don't care how we got here."


But aren't you just the slightest bit curious? I mean the primordial soup did not just come outta nowhere right?

Do you think it isn't important to you because it is alot to, and really challenging, to think about? Because I am religious, I do not really worry about the destiny of people as a whole, of course I still wonder about my own "purpose" and destiny. How do these two questions fold into your life in the scheme of aetheism?

Lastly - here is this great joke I heard in philosophy class that makes me think of atheism.

A bunch of scientists get together and say to God. "Hey God we finally figured out how to create life."

God replies "Great - lemme see."

The scientists go about collecting there stuff to create life and they reach down to pick up some dirt.

God says "Hey wait a second....get your own dirt!"

I thought it was hilarious - hope you don't find it offensive

[weetzie]

Not offensive to me at all.

I do agree that it is a challenging question, but maybe because I try to stay focused in the here and now, it does not seem all important.

I personally think purpose is overrated. I do believe that each person has things that he or she is good at, and can help society by doing those things, and so he or she should do them. But I think that there are multiple things I could be good at. I do not believe that there is one higher purpose for my being on this earth, besides reproduction and the continuing of the species. I do not have a need for purpose or for destiny. I do know that my decisions affect my life, and I do not believe that things are preplanned. But a higher purpose or destiny? No. I do not believe that.

I do not think that it is not important because it is challenging to think about. Do you know anything about Buddhism? I am a huge Thich Nhat Hanh fan, and in Old Path, White Clouds (the story of Buddha) when people ask Buddha about the origins of the universe he explains that it is beyond the realm of what he can explain, so he does not focus on it. (If any Buddhists are upset with my interpretation, I am sorry. I am at work, trying to answer this as best I can--please feel free to correct me) In that same vein, the creation of life is beyond me, and there are other factors of life today that I focus on. I can find peace and happiness without focusing on the creation of life. I do not believe that my life will be enriched if I delve deep into this question. I believe that scientists do that well enough. There are other issues for me to deal with that require all of my attention.

[karen ann]

Originally Posted by goodcents

I know. I know. I am sure you get asked this all the time. But I don't *really* know any true aetheists - at least not to my knowledge.

Actually, I don't get asked about my beliefs (or lack thereof) often at all. Prolly because I don't go around likebroadcasting it Madalyn Murray O'Hair, making atheism into its own brand of religion. Most people don't know I'm an atheist, I suppose.

So can you please share......

If you don't believe in God - how do you think we got here? What do you think we are doing here?

I think we got here through billions of years of random genetic mutations. IMVHO, there wouldn't be so many extinct species if there were a "guiding hand" in evolution, let alone direct creation (be it Adam & Eve in Eden or all life springing from the Danube or any of the myriad other creation mythos).

Do you think we are just byproducts of primordial soup? If so, where do you think the primordial soup came from?

Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know enough about physics to *begin* to postulate on "how" and "why." But nothing I've seen, read, heard, etc. leads me to any sort of theism. In fact the opposite. As I said above, why so many evolutionary dead ends and false starts *if* there's some controlling force(s)?

When I still believed, questions like that (anongst others) bothered me. The more I questioned, the fewer answers I saw in faith or spirituality. Once I let myself think "Does there really *need* to be a why?" and could honestly answer "No" to myself, I found it very liberating.

[weetzie]

Originally Posted by karen ann

When I still believed, questions like that (anongst others) bothered me. The more I questioned, the fewer answers I saw in faith or spirituality. Once I let myself think "Does there really *need* to be a why?" and could honestly answer "No" to myself, I found it very liberating.

Yes!

That is what I tried to say--there does not need to be a why, and it isnt because I am afraid of the question. It is because I don't need the answer.

[stafl]

Justine - since you are taking a philosophy class, perhaps you should ask your professor about the cosmological argument for the existence of God, and all the very incredibly intelligent philosophers who have argued against it, quite successfully.

I am not an atheist, but I can understand some of the thinking that makes this a moot point. I honestly believe everything always has been and always will be. The "primoridal soup" or whatever the universe consists of has no beginning because it just is. Time itself is a construct of our minds to make sense/order out of the chaos that is, so for me there is no creation, no beginning, and no end.

[Daffodil]

Yep, I think humans evolved from primordial soup. I have no idea where the primordial soup came from, or where anything in the universe came from, or why there even is a universe. Why is there something, and not nothing? It's a huge mystery, and very interesting to think about.

But thinking about it doesn't lead me to believe in God, at least not anything like the God most religious people seem to believe in. If you say that God is just a name for the force that created the universe, then I suppose I'd say I have no problem believing in that. But how about those other common ideas about God - that he/she/it is omnipotent, or wholly good, or has a plan for the universe, or can communicate with us? I've never seen any evidence that any of those things is true, so I see no reason to believe in a God who has any of those characteristics. I'm not saying such a God couldn't exist, just that I don't see why anyone would feel sure that he/she/it did.

[Rainbow]

Well, I suppose I'm coming out of the idea of creation and into the idea of evolution. There *may* be a God, but I don't know and it can't be proven either way.

The one thing that really struck me as a believer was the idea that humans just couldn't exist- that they had to be created for a purpose. I thought that way for a long time- but then I asked "who created God?" If everything/being needed a creator than who created God? The answer was always that God "just is" that he existed eternally. Well, if God can "just be" why can't human's "just be"?

We also always try to figure out what the purpose of life is... what is the point of life? I was watching some geese at the park the other day and asked- what is the purpose of their existance? They don't ask- they are just driven by nature to "be". They have a survival instinct, but what are they surviving for? Why do we need a purpose, while every other being on earth does not.

I think I lean towards agnosticism. It might just be a stop on my road to atheism- I don't know. if a greater power does exist, I don't think we feel the godly presence in our lives- and I don't think it can be proven either way.

[muse]

weetzie, i think you put it very well.
I wouldn't descriobe myself as ana theist, I'm buddhist and do not believe in a God that created the universe. I believe in exolution.
I also believe that we do not, and cannot, know the true nature and origins of the universe beyond that and that the more we complicate things by trying to figure out the unfigurable (if you know what I mean!) the more confused we get. Buddhism teaches us to focus on what is knowable in our present experience.

[orangebird]

But aren't you just the slightest bit curious? I mean the primordial soup did not just come outta nowhere right?

See, to me, the concept of a god creator doesn't make this question any easier to answer. I can't just think "oh, someone/something created it" and then all other questions about the beginnings are answered. I am not sure how some people think the concept of the universe being created makes any more sense than the other theories about it's beginnings.

I also don't know why people think humans must have a purpose and therefore there must be a god who created us with a purpose. I just don't think that way. And imagining there were a god that created us with a purpose, I can't for the life of me imagine what such a purpose might be and why such a powerful being would even want, let alone need, to create us.

I just don't know.

I was a Philosophy major and in my philosophy of religion classes there was not one argument for the case of a god that convinced me for even a second. They seemed very weak and were easily shot down. And, to me, all those against were much stronger cases and their rebuttals were awkward and pretty weak. This is my opinion, I'm sure those theists in my classes were nodding their heads in agreement with the cases presented in favor of there being a god.

It is an amazing question, how did it all begin, but I don't think it is something that we humans could ever be able to understand with our limited ability to sense and experience the universe and our very short time in it.

[Jane]

Originally Posted by goodcents

If you don't believe in God - how do you think we got here? What do you think we are doing here?

Evolution. No particular purpose, just like a plant or a fish or anything, really.

Originally Posted by goodcents

Do you think we are just byproducts of primordial soup? If so, where do you think the primordial soup came from?

Primordial soup is not some special brew, it's the ancient oceans in a reducing (rather than oxidizing) environment. Chance combinations of molecules in favorable conditions created a self-replicating item that evolved into what is here on earth today. I'm sure there is other life in the universe because the universe is so large.

My favorite essay: http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/

[goodcents]

Thanks for all the great replies

I think we got here through billions of years of random genetic mutations.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but what started the first mutation? How did the substance begin?

I do agree that the "purpose" portion of existential philosophy and thinking can be overrated. People don't want to hear (myself included) that "Hey Pal, your purpose just might be to wash dishes." I am not always of the school of thought that the purpose has to be big and grand and something that will "change the world".

I remember once I looked at the sky on a super clear night and got the vague suspicion that we might just be in God's fishtank - like His purpose for us was for his amusement. Kinda like how people keep wild fish trapped in really small tanks....

Stafl -

Justine - since you are taking a philosophy class, perhaps you should ask your professor about the cosmological argument for the existence of God, and all the very incredibly intelligent philosophers who have argued against it, quite successfully.

Did I mention a philosophy class in another thread - curious where you pulled that from? I was in one Fall term,but prolly won't be in another until spring of 2005 - if i am lucky schedule wise. Have some philosophers you care to suggest in the interim?

Apricot -

Chance combinations of molecules in favorable conditions created a self-replicating item that evolved into what is here on earth today

Yes I knew primordial soup probably was not the most scientifically accurate term - but reflected the beginning of the beginnings I was trying to convey. Thanks for the link. It looks interesting - but at 14 pages - I gotta buy some paper so I can lounge about and read it. I can't digest material like vis a vi the crummy computer monitor.

Lastly -

I also believe that we do not, and cannot, know the true nature and origins of the universe beyond that and that the more we complicate things by trying to figure out the unfigurable (if you know what I mean!) the more confused we get.

very interesting and very well said Muse!!!!

[stafl]

you mentioned it in this thread

here is this great joke I heard in philosophy class

anyway, every one of the philosophy professors I know just love to hear themselves talk, and would be very glad to answer your questions

I'm sure Hume had some interesting things to say about the arguments for the existence of God. Probably Kant, too. It's been so long since I was in school, studying these things...
My all-time favorite would be William James, but he's more in favor of believing in God in his book Varieties of Religious Experience and in many of his essays, including "The Will to Believe"
he kind of says that religious belief is helpful/useful (pragmatic) in that it makes a difference in our lives. My take on it is that life just wouldn't be worth living if this is all there is, for me there just has to be something else, something not a part of this physical world. I don't need proof that it exists, I *want* to believe it does and that's all that really matters to me.

[AmandasMom]

Well, at the risk of being laughed at, I don't belive in a "god", and I'm not entirely convinced we "evolved", if anything I'm more inclined to belive we (humans) came from somewhere else a very long time ago. And yes, by somewhere else I believe another planet. Humans just don't seem to fit in with life on this planet.

[goodcents]

Originally Posted by stafl

you mentioned it in this thread anyway, every one of the philosophy professors I know just love to hear themselves talk, and would be very glad to answer your questions

okay okay - like I say to my husband......


I only look stupid :

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by goodcents

I remember once I looked at the sky on a super clear night and got the vague suspicion that we might just be in God's fishtank - like His purpose for us was for his amusement. Kinda like how people keep wild fish trapped in really small tanks....

I remember feeling that way at some point- but now that I have a fish tank I've started to wonder. When two of my fish aren't getting along and they are hurting each other, I seperate them. When they get an ailment I put medication in the tank.
What kind of God would just sit back and watch the horror, with full capacity to heal it, and choose not to? The suffering, injustice, and sadness in our world is largely ignored. I can't put faith in a God who allows that.

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by AmandasMom

Well, at the risk of being laughed at, I don't belive in a "god", and I'm not entirely convinced we "evolved", if anything I'm more inclined to belive we (humans) came from somewhere else a very long time ago. And yes, by somewhere else I believe another planet. Humans just don't seem to fit in with life on this planet.

I find it interesting to contemplate- but then I have to wonder where did life begin on that planet? created or just existed?

[Free Thinker]

These are all thought provoking questions. Truely, no one has the absolute answer as to where we came from. Some believe that we were created to serve a God of "love", others that we came from another planet that banned cloning, and came here to 'experiment' with cloning, some believe that aliens even come down and keep tabs on us (UFO siting, alien abductions, ect.), and some believe that we sprang up from primordial soup millions of years ago. Here is my own little explanation. The universe is infinately complex. We do not understand all of it, it's almost beyond our relm of comprehension. We know that the universe exists. When someone claims that these complex things, including humans had to be created, I can only ask how did this creator come into existance. The answer is often (IME) that God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, he has always been and will always be. This creator would *have* to be even more complex than his creation, in order to actually be in charge of it, right? How can this creator simply "be" yet our universe had to be created? This does not make sense to me at all. It makes more since, to me anyway that the Universe simply is, it is the constant that binds all life, just like God is to many people. Since I know that the universe exists, I can see it, and feel it; yet I cannot touch, or see God; I chose to believe in the Universe. Both have the same realm of possibility.

On another note, as an atheist, I simply believe in one less God than a Christian does. I get kind of aggrivated when I see Christains spouting things about God and Creation, like their creation story is the *only* one. There have been hundreds of creation stories, and thousands of God's worshiped over the last several thousand years. What makes you think yours is any different or special than any other God? What makes your creation story valid, and the others simply myths? Just something for you to think about.

Oh, and if you really want to understand more about how the mutations form, and start, try taking a college Biology class. One I had in college focused on the DNA and RNA, and how sometimes the strands accidently got in the wrong sequence. I also have a PBS show on tape that goes into detail about DNA, and the Human Genome project. It explains how one tiny spot on the DNA molecule can cause a host of problems. Also, there are millions of "sleeper" genes that are possible 'left overs' from ancient ancestors. It is really fascinating. I look forward to lots of new information on evolution due to the genetic research being done right now. It truely is AMAZING!!!

[yeah yeah yeah]

I didn't read everyone's posts, so that I could write this clearly... so if I'm beating a dead horse, sorry.

If you don't believe in God - how do you think we got here? What do you think we are doing here?

Okay... so before there is something... there is nothing... empty space. Empty space is essentially raw potentiality. Basically, in infinite vaccuum, there is infinite possibility... so the spontaneous actuality of matter wasn't just an "accident" in an infinite void--it was an inevitable.

This is backed up with the assertion that "for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction." There is just as much "negative matter" in the universe, as "positve matter." So, when you add that up, you get what? Zero. We aren't "something from nothing," we are stylized "nothing from nothing" when thought about in terms of math.

What are we doing here? We are existing.

Do you think we are just byproducts of primordial soup? If so, where do you think the primordial soup came from?

As for life on this planet... I'm all about the ocean vents. They've proven that all the ingedients for life are down there--proteins, nucleic acid, and plasma.

Larger "why are we here, what is our purpose?" questions weren't asked, but I don't get stumped there, either...

I was a physics major in college. Fun.