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why do people STILL circumcize? - Page 2

post #21 of 67
Thread Starter 
TexasSue: even though I do not agree with you at all, I am still interested in knowing why you think it's best. since you came to the anti-circ'ing thread I'm sure we'll all curious.
post #22 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasSuz
Most people still do.
(nak)
if i were you i would educate myself more on the subject! most people in the world DON'T do it... see some people are so closed-minded that still believe this country is "the rest of the world" well, it's not! there's a whole world out there that does not do genital mutilation.
post #23 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i won't return to the thread -

Post-and-run. Nice.
post #24 of 67
Quote:
Post-and-run. Nice.
i don't come to this forum since we don't discuss religious circumcision here theres nothing i more i would or could say to help the thread. So i said what i wanted to say and then i left.

no reason to get snippy really. See, now you brought me back. for what purpose? to say again that some people still circumcize because G-d commanded it.
I still have nothing to add. Nor would i comment on the other posts. And i really woudl never be rude to another poster. thats not...

nice.
post #25 of 67
I am discussing RIC only here.

I have given this topic a lot of thought for years now. I think honestly parents are hiding behind the outdated "medical" excuses because they can't stand up to what is the norm around them. They know it is harmful, they know it hurts their sons but the social pressure it too much. If a parent truly looked at the research (and not pro-circing fetish sites) they wouldn't do it for so called medical reasons , because it is pretty clear there aren't any. At least be honest and say you circ **only** because it is socially accepted among those you know and you have your own hang ups about foreskin. For goodness sakes don't try to come to this forum and say you do it for medical reasons.
Hmmm the whole every one does it goes back to the old saying "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?". Parents who have circed and have every intention on circing again have to defend their "right" to do this so they can hide behind parental rights instead of standing up and doing what is right for their son. No way in hell is circing the right thing to do to an infant , to strap him down and painfully, sexually violate him in the name of social conformity. It's wrong and any parent who thought about it objectively would see that. It's ony when those who have done this that have to defend themselves from the horror they have put their sons thru that they can't see it objectively. It is so much easier to deny the pain they have caused the sons they love so much then to stand up for what is right. It is so much easier to keep saying circing is best when everyone you know does it and to think it is wrong then you have to admit that all the people you repsect and love have done something horrible to the most vunerable among them. Denial is so much easier for the parents anyway. I am positive if you asked the infants if they wanted to suffer thru a circ so they'd "fit" in they would get up and f'ing run if they could. Come on think about it who would say yes to having a *healthy, useful, normal* part of their genitals removed. I know I wouldn't sign up for that!! Also , don't fool yourself into thinking you have done what is best for your son. Painfully , unnecessarily removing healthy body parts from an infant is NOT in their best interest.
post #26 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Also , don't fool yourself into thinking you have done what is best for your son. Painfully , unnecessarily removing healthy body parts from an infant is NOT in their best interest.
They don't do it because it is in the best interest of their sons. They will say that it is, but really I think they do it for their (the parents) best interest. They don't have the strenght to stand up for what is right and take the heat from others who might make fun of them. I know I have put up with a lot of criticism for not mutilating my ds. They just can't take that criticism and want to fit in. The circ rate nationally *is* about 50/50 but we all know there are areas where it is about 90/10. These parents are too weak to risk being in that 10%.
post #27 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i won't return to the thread - but some people still circumcize because it was commanded by G-d. So if someone believes in G-d and believes that Jesus didn't come to change the Law but to fulfill it, those people would still chose to circumcise their sons in accordance with the covenant.

There is a very interesting question here:

http://www.debateforums.net/showthre...1326#post31326

Perhaps you can answer it.




Frank
post #28 of 67
Colorful-Mama

How exactly does circumcision fit in with the whole AP philosophy? I am having a real hard time figuring this out.

Jackie
post #29 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinijocaro
Colorful-Mama

How exactly does circumcision fit in with the whole AP philosophy? I am having a real hard time figuring this out.

Jackie

it doesn't. circumcision is not natural, it's cutting a piece of a child's body, most of the time with no pain killers. like the pp said, the social pressure is too much and parents hide themselves behing excuses because there ISN'T medical proof that circ'ing is better. or oh... yeah that cancer study.. so why don't we go ahead and cut our breasts off to prevent breast cancer? and while we're at it, let's just cut everything off...

and to the post about relig. circ'ing... I'm curious, what does G d mean? thanks in advance...
post #30 of 67
Thread Starter 
colorful mama:

i think i got it...

do you write g-d instead of God?

why do you skip the o? (just curious)

and I will say this again, my question excluded religious circ'ing, I am not getting into that... (I am only talking abotu routine circ'ing in non-required-by-religion people)
post #31 of 67
"They don't do it because it is in the best interest of their sons. They will say that it is, but really I think they do it for their (the parents) best interest. They don't have the strenght to stand up for what is right and take the heat from others who might make fun of them. I know I have put up with a lot of criticism for not mutilating my ds. They just can't take that criticism and want to fit in. The circ rate nationally *is* about 50/50 but we all know there are areas where it is about 90/10. These parents are too weak to risk being in that 10%."

I think you hit the nail on the head! ITA 100%. I think that some do it out of plain ignorance. Heck, I know that if I had not been given the info that I had from my Bradley instructor I probably would have done it because I thought that's just what you did. All it took was ONE article from Mothering (I think...it was a long time ago) and I knew that there was no way in hell I would do that to MY kid. My dh read the article with me, and he agreed 100%. What I have serious problems with is when someone KNOWS and does it anyway. I honestly don't know how they sleep at night.

Anyway, I think that this is my first post in this forum. I have been round and round in some of the circ debate forums. I'm just tired of some of the same old arguements. I guess I hang out there just waiting for an argument for circ that in anyway makes sense. Unfortunately its just the same sheeple and sickos that parade through the debates trying unsucessfully to justify what they have taken from their sons.....its maddening.
post #32 of 67
I believe I live in an area where the circ rate is still pretty high, but no one has questioned our decision. The nurses in the hospital seemed a bit confused when we refused it, but they never pressured us (they probably hate being there during them anyway). The only person to have even seen DS with a diaper off (except me and DH) is my MIL, and she hasn't said anything. Perhaps she realizes circ'ing my DH was wrong.
post #33 of 67
You know what's so odd Suz? I went to Philadelphia to protest at the ACOG convention... and the VAST majority of OBs who stopped to chat- stated that THE ONLY reason why they do circumcisions is because "it's what the parent's want" Over and over, for 3 days, I listed to OBs whine to me like little helpless babies that they are victims of the cultural pressure of parents who want circumcisions on their sons.

I heard it at least 150 times.

They told me that I was WRONG to go protest THEM because they were not at the ROOT of the PROBLEM... YOU ARE.

They had the nerve to tell me that it was MY JOB to educate YOU... It is MY JOB to tell you that circumcision is a provincial rite that uninformed people do to their kids with no medical value. That circumcision is the mark of the uneducated masses.

150 Obstetrician circumcisers told me that they don't want to do it- but it's people like YOU who keep this going... this disgusting cycle where all males are supposed to be mutilated to match the males who were mutilated in the past and the males who will be mutilated on into the future... it's your defiant refusal to update your sexist opinion of the normal male body that keeps this going.

Regardless if I agreed with their argument (oh those poor helpless vulnerable little Obs) I thought I would tell you what they asked me to tell you. They don't respect you. They talked about parents who want circumcisions with disdain... but they will allow you to believe what you want because they are making money off violating your child's body and they don't care because no one is holding them accountable for their breach of medical ethics..

Then, two weeks later I went to the International CAPPA convention, I spoke with many midwives, doulas, childbirth educators and lactation consultants. In speaking with about 75 people at length, there was ONE (only ONE!!!) disjointed confused woman who was visibly agitated at the idea that a man has a right to his physical integrity. She shook her head and repeated "It doesn't matter" over and over, she was utterly unable to grasp basic concepts we were presenting*.... but her 3 friends were all very much against circumcision and were eager to collect any information they could in order that they could be MORE EFFECTIVE in undoing the brainwashing that people like you who believe in circumcision have accepted. There were two other women who were Jewish who were interested in learning more about the arguments against circumcision, and although they personally were not agaisnt it, they only had a religious idea that was holding them toward it.

The theme at the CAPPA conference was the SAME... "It's the parents who want it- we all KNOW it is WRONG... but they already have their minds made up... we are helpless to stop them.. they insist, they refuse to listen... they are adamant... they can't face the reality of what it is they are doing to their child... if they knew better they wouldn't do it... but I CAN't get them to listen!!"

In the month of May I heard over 200 childbirth professionals say to me that circumcision is ONLY done because parents want to do it.

So why is it that you have such a desire to turn your son's penis inside out?

What is it about that that makes you feel so... civilized and educated? What makes your "inside out penis culture" so great that we Americans who are not a part of it are missing out on? Huh? What did I miss? When I grew up I obviously missed the genital mutilation cultural indoctrination... because somehow I never got the compulsion that you did. When did it happen to you? How did you get to be so ENLIGHTENED?

Was it some little Texas girls in 5th grade who never even saw a penis except for the one girl who was in the know because she was molested? Did your grandmother give birth tied to a bed and drugged with scopalimine (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ep+labor&hl=en) decide that the medical interventions of HER DAY were the be all and end all of what is supposed to happen from now on in the family? ... or was it from the caliber of people, Nobel prize winners even, who signed the Ashley Montague petition? (oh and in case you don't know... they were all against circumcision... I have yet to see the fanatastic list of intellectuals who would like to publicly proclaim their penchant FOR male mutilation in a cultural advancement petition to perfect the flawed male form... maybe you will be the first?)

Where did you learn that circumcision was so great? Where could we go to get the great education on mutilation that you did?

You don't agree with the "basic Premise" so what is the premise that you DO agree with? That all males are inherently flawed and need surgical correction in order to fit in your high society? Where do males who have not been surgicly modified fit into your cultural picture? Second class?
post #34 of 67
Many Jewish people do not write out the word God, but instead G*d or g_d out of respect. However, I do not think the original question pertained to religious circumcision as we are not suposed to discuss that on this board.

I do find it odd, however, that the one person who beleived RIC was best, could not give a cognitive answer to the original post.
post #35 of 67
How does circ fit in with natural parenting/ap?

Good question, although being natural or ap doesn't seem to be a requirement any longer to get a "support" forum here at mdc.

I can't help pointing out to the pro-circ parents here at mdc (is that a misnomer?) that there might be hope for a pro-circ forum. It could go next to the abm-support and c-sec support threads. (tongue in cheek, *hopefully)
post #36 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorful~Mama
i don't come to this forum since we don't discuss religious circumcision here theres nothing i more i would or could say to help the thread. So i said what i wanted to say and then i left.

no reason to get snippy really. See, now you brought me back. for what purpose? to say again that some people still circumcize because G-d commanded it.
I still have nothing to add. Nor would i comment on the other posts. And i really woudl never be rude to another poster. thats not...

nice.


Then, don't come to this forum at all if that is all you have to say. The guidelines clearly state that defending circumcision in the name of religion is not allowed. You're the one who brought religion up--everyone else was talking about non-religious reasons that circ still continues.
post #37 of 67
Great post Sarah!!
post #38 of 67
yeah, barb, you know i love you but have to disagree with you on this one, yet i cannot, because the topic is not allowed here. that is not... nice. you could've posted it in spirituality where i could've posted my insistance on debating centuries worth of rabbis (yes, i'm not so qualified, but the biblical historians i've read *are*), but here, i'm just screwed & have to keep my foot in my mouth.

my jewish dh (and my jewish sons, to anyone but the orthodox- and since we have dna testing now, even they need to rethink the matrilineal descent thing, imho- and israel agrees for making aliyah, even if they don't want our kind, lol, barb) is sad and angry that it happened to him, & glad that we left our children intact. doesn't interfere with our messianic beliefs at all. of all the laws, why this one that wasn't even in the book of j but added by priestly redactors later? why hurt a child when there is doubt that g-d wanted anyone to do such a thing at all, but that it was likely added later to explain an existing pagan blood-ritual remnant?

now SEE, this is why you are supposed to keep this in 'spirituality'! it is not fair- or nice- to post something no one is allowed to respond to honestly.

and txsuz, i'm sorry that you have been so misinformed. i hope your son will forgive you, because one day he is going to part of an increasing minority of the generation of genitally mutilated children, and he is going to wonder why (my dh is still pretty pissed, and he at least has the religious angle. 'social & medical'? are we still fighting this battle from the beginning?)

ok! ready for editing! (can we just throw this in spirituality rather than kill it? god knows it would be mild enough in 'activism'.)

suse
post #39 of 67
Sarah, you kick some serious butt!
post #40 of 67
Sarah,
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