ancient fish symbolism

[DaryLLL]

Just wanted to share some historical information. If anyone else has info on the importance of the fish symbol in any religion/cultures, feel free to share it.

More info:

The Greek speaking Christians used the first letters of a title of Christ--

Iesous Xristos Theou Yios Soter

--to spell ICTHYS, fish in Greek.

You can make it like this!

<><

There is Greek sacred geometry in the significance of the number of fish Jesus' disciples haul out of the water in GJn 21:11 of the Greek Scriptures.

http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religio...cnumber153.html


Quote:
The sign of the fish is widely used today as a symbol of Christianity, but originated in Pagan sacred geometry. Two circles of equal size, symbolic of spirit and matter, are brought together in a sacred marrage, with the center of each circle on the perimeter of the other. When this is done the width to height ratio of the intersecting region is (insert math here) which is very close to 265/153, a formula known to Archimedes in the third century BCE as the "measure of the fish."


Some believe that a fish sits atop the Egyptian symbol, the Ankh (crux ansata).

http://www.luckymojo.com/willss15ankh.html

Quote:
Throughout Egyptian civilization, which lasted some
6,000 years, charms and talismans played a conspicuous
part, both in their religious and civil life. The Ankh,
the symbol of life, one of Egypt's most popular and
ancient amulets, was supposed to bestow upon the
wearer, intelligence, power, and abundance. It was
formed by the hieroglyphic RU, O, set on a cross, the
loop RU representing a fish's mouth (supposed to give
birth to water), and in this form represents the key of
the Nile, which inundates the country, fertilizing the
land and bringing prosperity. Most of the Egyptian gods
are shown holding an Ankh, and their kings always
carried one at their coronations.


http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/ankh.htm

[DaryLLL]

OK, this thread is open. Now we are all probably tired of the subject.

Let's see.

Umm...

How abut them Red Sox? Nomar's back from the DL!

[Annie7]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

You can make it like this!

<><

Or some prefer <{{{><

[applejuice]

Thank You DaryLLL for that information.

ITA with what you are saying.

I have also read, a long time ago, that the symbol of the cross as a religious symbol predates the crucifixion of Christ.

My brother tells me that the Holy Eucharist as a re-enactment of the Last Supper is a religious ceremony that predates Jesus....a Mithra story if you will.

Thank you for sharing.

[Annie7]

I did visit the links posted and gave the site a great deal of latitude in my thought process. I have set it aside for awhile just to reflect and consider what I’ve seen. I have also visited other sites that have helped me in forming my own conclusion.

from http://www.tektonics.org/fishsymbol.html

Now after some time now of addressing similar claims by the likes of Acharya S, I hardly need to put any scholarly weight on these arguments, even if they are all true (which I will simply assume for the sake of argument, that they are). The standard story on our side is that the fish symbol for Christians found its origins, independently, in the theme of Jesus' disciples as "fishers of men" and that the Greek word for "fish" made an acronym that spelled out a title for Jesus Christ.

...
The "copycat" claims (like all we have seen) are without genetic foundation, and are meaningless; and it is not as though Christians would have to (or care to) scour the ancient trademark records to make sure they found an original symbol, or that they had to say, "Darn, we can't use the fish, the Great Mother already did." The fish in other places symbolized fertility. For Christians it symbolized salvation and evangelism.

[Kabes]

Annie,

ITA!!!!

[hotmamacita]

DaryLLL,

not tired of it at all. i appreciate your post above.

oh and yeah, how BOUT those red sox....

[hotmamacita]

Oh and I have the fish symbol tatoo'd on my bony ankle....

[AnnaReilly]

Originally Posted by Annie7

"So what?" indeed. That's really all the reply that is deserved, in my opinion.

For me the "So what?" is this...
Maybe instead of taking a symbol and saying, "This is my symbol and the symbol of my people and this sets me apart from you," we can say, "Ah, I see your people used this symbol from way back, too. Perhaps you and I aren't so different after all."

Of course, this is just the personal thought of a panthiest who thinks we're all one anyway.

[DaryLLL]

One of Maria Virgine's titles is Stella Maris, Star of the Sea. She was placed on ships as a figurehead for protection.

Why associate Mary with the sea? Well, the first of all, the words are quite similar. Perhaps a coincidence. Maria, Marina.

Yes, the gospel narratives associate Jesus with fish. He was written to live on the shore of a large lake, which obviously had a bustling fishing industry. If we view this as fiction, why did "Mark" place Jesus in Galilee? Some scholars assert, because Jesus was a pagan godman, and the area was known as Galilee of the Gentiles, because it was so Hellenistic. Paul does not associate Jesus with any region in particular. So, perhaps "Mark" placed Jesus here because of the apt symbolism of the sea and fish for his story.

Yoni
"Vulva," the primary Tantric object of worship, symbolized variously by a triangle, fish, double-pointed oval, horseshoe, egg, fruits, etc. Personifying the yoni, the Goddess Kali bore the title of Cunti or Kundu, root of the ubiquitous Indo-Europeanword "cunt" and all its relatives: cunnus, cunte, cunning, ken, kin, country.

The Yoni Yantra or triangle was known as the Primordial Image,representing the Great Mother as source of all life. As the genital focus of her divine energy, the Yantra was adored as a geometrical symbol, as the cross was adored by Christians.

The ceremony of baptismal rebirth often involved being drawn bodily through a giant yoni. Those who underwent this ceremony were styled "twice-born."

from The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets by Barbara Walker

http://www.amaranthine.freeserve.co..../canaanite.htm

Lady Asherah of the Sea is also known as Atargatis or Derketo, and one of her symbols is a fish. However, in the Old Testament we see Asherah in the form of a tree, or of a tree trunk, or a wooden pole (possibly the origin of our own May Pole). This was set in high places, in green groves, and there the festivals of moon and season took place with rejoicing and sexual celebration. These are the "high places" that Israel's monotheistic male prophets were most keen to destroy, although they never entirely succeeded. Time and time again we read of the Hebrew people "backsliding" into worshipping Her, and even as late as the period into which Jesus was born, we have the figure of the Lady Wisdom, still divine, a creatrix figure, which he eventually took over. Atargatis, another aspect of Asherah, was called "Lady of Life"; she is usually shown with a spindle and a fish. A spindle because she is also "goddess of useful appliances", and a fish because as lady of water she produced life. She was also worshipped as "Universal Mother Earth." It is interesting that a fish is the cuneiform symbol of the city of Nineveh - this is the place to which the biblical Jonah was sent, and on the way was swallowed by a whale and stayed "in the belly of the fish" for three days. There seem some connections there.

http://www.endicott-studio.com/jMA03...heMermaid.html

Sheila-na-gig is a general reference to female figures that prominently display their genitalia to signify the power of female sexuality and fertility. These images are also quite prominent in the decoration of sacred sites in general and are thought to be a legacy of the older Goddess religions whose holy sites were usually taken over by later religions. The shape of the genitalia in these squatting figures is also symbolic of the vesica piscis, the "vessel of the fish," which is also associated with Christ. The well-known Christian "fish" symbol (seen prominently on the backs of many cars these days) is the ICHTHYS, referring to the Greek acronym for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior."

We tend to associate the equation of Christ and fish with the miracle of the loaves and fishes, or the fact that some of the disciples were fishermen (Christ as the fisherman of souls), but the symbol has an older origin connected with a more ancient myth. The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects notes that "Ichthys was the name of a son of the ancient Sea-goddess, Atargatis, also known as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Derceto, Salacia, Pelagia, or Delphine, whose name meant both 'womb' and 'dolphin'; all appeared in mermaid form. In a way, however, Jesus could be called the same Ichthys as the son of Sea-mother Mari, whose blue robe, pearl necklace, and much-varied name referred to the world's oceans: Maria, Marina, Marian, Mariamne, Myrrhine, Myrrha, Mari-Yamm, Mari-El, and Stella Maris, the Star of the Sea."

http://www.improverse.com/ed-article...kingfisher.htm

When the Vesica Piscis is displayed vertically, the mandorla forms the shape of a fish. The word "fish" translates into Greek as "ichthys", which is an acronym for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." Early Christians adopted the fish symbol as their own, and used it as sort of secret code to identify themselves to one another and avoid persecution. The Vesica Piscis, and in particular the mandorla, has been much used in Christian art and architecture: as a frame for Jesus and the saints, or as the passage between heaven and earth through which Jesus ascends.

When the Vesica Piscis is viewed horizontally, however, the mandorla becomes a different sort of passage: the birth passage, the vulva of the Goddess, surrounded by the crescents of the waxing and waning moon. The mandorla as birth passage can easily be seen on the sheila-na-gig figures found on Irish churches, and in the squatting figures of the Hindu goddess Kali. The almond/yoni/fish/ocean/Goddess connection is present in several mythologies, from Egypt and Greece to India and China.

A medieval hymn calls Jesus "the little fish in the Virgin's fountain." Christian art sometimes shows Jesus inside a mandorla, superimposed over Mary's womb. Mary herself can be equated with the goddess Aphrodite Marina, who brought forth all the fish in the oceans; Marina's blue robe and pearl necklace, like the Christian Mary's, are classic symbols of the sea. On Cyprus, Mary to this day is worshiped as "Panaghia Aphroditessa."

[PurpleBasil]

Originally Posted by Annie7

Christians had every right to select a fish as a symbol, and it is irrelevant who used it previously and how.

Irrelevant? No way, mama.

I love history and I will continue to learn about the history of symbols and origins of sacred knowledge until I die.

Thankfully, there are such things as libraries, universities, museums to support my learning.

Thanks DaryLLL for a very fascinating discussion. I'm glad I read this!

[Annie7]

Fascinating, yes. True, maybe I'll even give you that. Relevant to Christian *beliefs* today, no. The point of my previous post was to say that it has occurred to me that Christians (as well as anyone else) can pick any shape, color, number, smell, (you get the jist) to represent their convictions.

http://www.tektonics.org/fishsymbol.html

Kellogg's tiger debuted in 1952; Exxon's tiger debuted in 1964. Exxon within the last few years had adopted a more cartoony look for their tiger in coordination with selling things in convenience stores. Kellogg's cried foul, alleging that consumers (yes, they really think you are this dumb) would confuse the trademarks. (Though it is not, as one Exxon rep said, as though people were going into stores asking for Kellogg's gasoline or Exxon cereal.) Note that the issue here wasn't even that Kellogg's thought that Exxon stole (copycatted) the tiger. No one charged that; their charge was along the lines that Exxon should have checked trademarks more carefully. So now ask this: Would the average ancient consumer of religion been "confused" by the Christian use of the fish? Would they have looked at it and seen an appropriation of a symbol from another religion, and vested it with the wrong meaning?

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Annie7

But still the all consuming debate over who had it first?

I'm flattered you think my little contributions on an obscure parenting board makes this seem "all consuming." hehe

I just figured some might find it mildly interesting.

Who had it first tho? Well, which came first, Asherah worship or the fledgling Xtian ecclesia?

<>< (l) \l/

The Goddess of Willendorf, or GMk?

The Xtians who are now using this symbol on their cars are more than welcome to it, as far as I am concerned. But I just am making the point, it has an (even more) ancient history. So do the cross and the holy meal of bread and wine for that matter, as applejuice pointed out.

Why should this be a problem?

Going off into more symbolism, here is an Egyptian one.

You will see people praising God in wall paintings by raising their hands toward the diety. Esp to the Sun diety, Ra.

But sometimes you will see baboons doing it in this wall art and go, huh?

Seems baboons do this when the sun rises in the morning. To warm themselves? Perhaps a zoologist can correct me.

The sun worshipping Egyptians copied their devout fellow primates.

Many still worship their god/dess this way.

[DaryLLL]

Annie7, I loooked at the ACLU letter you linked. A town in Kansas has a fish on their logo. It is obvious the ACLU researchers did not make the effort I did to dig a little deeper.

Their resouces so stated are:

Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (1958)

Princeton Theological Review (1910 [!])

New Catholic Encyclopedia, (1967)

Eerdmons Bible Dictionary (1987)

Popular cultural usage

They did not look farther back into the mists of (non-Xtian) time. Now, no doubt the city (hamlet?) of Republic, Kansas is using the fish as in "popular cultural usage." I will grant them that. But if we dig deeper again, we do have separation of religion and state, hotly debated now, as in the recent ban on the 10 commandments in that courthouse.

Atheists and Constitutionalists will have an issue with it either as a pagan or xtian symbol.

The 2 closeted pagans in Republic might be snickering.

[applejuice]

I do not know if anyone has mentioned it here, but the ACLU has filed a suit in L.A. to remove the crucifix from the symbol of the Los Angeles County Seal. It is there to commemmorate the Christian/Catholic Franciscan settlement of the area, who established the mission system originally in the area under the auspices of the Roman Church.

Also on the seal is a prominient picture of the Harvest goddess, Pomona. No objection has been filed to remove her, yet.

[Annie7]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

I'm flattered you think my little contributions on an obscure parenting board makes this seem "all consuming." hehe

Sorry you misunderstood. I was referring to the class action suit brought by Kellogg, against Exxon.

[Mona]

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Annie7

Sorry you misunderstood. I was referring to the class action suit brought by Kellogg, against Exxon.

Oh yeah. Now I get ya.

[DaryLLL]

Mona, please check your PMs.

[heket]

Originally Posted by Annie7

So now ask this: Would the average ancient consumer of religion been "confused" by the Christian use of the fish? Would they have looked at it and seen an appropriation of a symbol from another religion, and vested it with the wrong meaning?

Actually, I don't think the "average ancient consumer of religion" would've been confused. I think the point (and DaryLLL, am I wrong?) was that the symbol can be traced back farther than from the first Christian associations with it, here's how it was used then, and look what was done with it (btw, some of you may fine it neat to know). Like many things that still survive today, we humans seem to come up with new ways to use something that's always been around. Each time we do so, a new meaning springs forth. None of them, though are any better, more correct, superior, etc. -- just another way to look at something that fit a community's needs, spiritually or otherwise

Just my Goddess/ God worshipping 0.02 cents.