My kid got kicked out of the zoo for a shirt ! - Page 2

[Rainbow]

I'm with SBF- the only question I'm asking is if the zoo is public or private? Privately owned business can (I think) ask such things if they have the same rules in writing for all guests. I do also think you should have been refunded.

The issue is not should she let her son wear this shirt- she does. Now we're looking at the legality of asking her family to leave. We can't ask everyone to share our ideals. I don't get why people let their kids be walking advertisements but I wouldn't imply you're somehow lacking or wrong for doing so. And I certainly would support your right to do so in a public place. So maybe we can back off from saying it is ok because YOU find it offensive and look at the issue. Just me .02

[Piglet68]

1. As someone with a large Asian component to my family, I am probably more offended by the cultural insensitivity of that shirt, than the profanity itself. Profanity, in the right context, does not upset me. However, I will confess that seeing it on a 7 year old would make me seriously question the values of the parent (perhaps that is my own inherent bias or prudishness, not saying it is wrong and I'm right, but I'd feel that way nevertheless and I'm sure others would, and my concern would be how that child is treated as a result).

2. The zoo is not a public place unless you have free access and your tax dollars go directly to support it, in which case rules would be made by an elected board, to which you would have input as a tax-paying citizen. When you pay to enter a facility, you are presented with rules, and if you don't like them, you don't have to go. This is far different from being told to leave a public place b/c of what you are wearing. If the OP was just walking through the park, then I would agree she has the right to put on her kids whatever she likes. But a zoo is a paid-entrance place, and frankly I would be offended to see a kid wearing something like that in a family-oriented place.

3. I would agree that the OP deserved a refund IF the rules were not CLEARLY POSTED in the place where she purchased the tickets (which I'm guessing they weren't).

[PurpleBasil]

Do the animals f*ck and shit at the zoo? that's what I would have asked.

But I have a knee jerk reaction to a 7 year old wearing that shirt and then using the word (f*ck) because I think it's best to save those words for the years down the road.

I don't think your son is a threat to family values (whatever that means at an institution for cage animals with inherently reduced life spans because of their placement at a zoo) but I am not keen on that shirt for a young boy and don't find it 'adorable' as a concept.

[tofumama]

Hmmm...I agree with the cultural piece of this, its just, well, tacky. Yes, it could be seen as funny or cute, but honestly, I too would question the appropriateness of that kind of shirt on a 7yo, as I am not sure a child would understand the implications of wearing that shirt. (this coming from a woman with a mouth that often hurls explicatives ad nauseum) That being said, I do not agree with you being asked to leave the zoo, or 'threatened' to be removed, etc. I think the turning the shirt inside out option should have been offered. If they could have proven that in their rules somewhere it states you can't wear offensive shirts to the zoo, well then you are sh*t out of luck.
But, what did you expect? Did you think no-one would figure the shirt out? Of course it is your right to dress the way you choose (or dress your child) but when you are going to wear clothes like that, or some other article of clothing that makes a 'statement' there are bound to be people who's feathers it ruffles. Isn't that the point?

[Rainbow]

Piglet- I was trying to stay off of the "is it offensive" part of the post to focus on the "is it legal" part of asking them to leave. However If I would have gotten into it I would have said the exact same things as in your #1. Chinese calligraphy is more than writing. It is an art, and a very meaningful part of their culture. I'm more disturbed by the spoofing of that than swear words.

[FreeRangeMama]

Right or wrong, wouldn't it be *common sense* that a shirt with profanity would create problems if worn at a place geared toward children? Are you actually surprised that someone took issue with it? They are only words, but much of the population do find it offensive, especially in relation to children. Plus, teaching children such a lack of respect for people's culture is very disturbing. It is your choice to let your child wear what he wants, but you really can't be terribly surprised at other people's reactions.

[vermonter]

It all comes down to law. I agree with Piglet. I probably is a private for profit organization. They then have their own written rules and regulations probably based on federal and state statutes. You can ask for a copy of those. They also should have been posted for the public to review.

Personally, I would not let my child, at age 7, wear a shirt like that. I don't think a child of that age could fully understand the implications of the message or why someone would get offended. At that age, they probably just think it is "cool".

If you feel like your rights and your sons rights were violated I am sure you probably have a local Office of Civil rights in your area or in the city that is closest to you. You can contact them. They most likely provide free advice over the phone. You can also explore filing a complaint with the zoo.

[mocha09]

I agree that the shirt was inappropriate for the zoo, on 2 levels...both using the "f" word in a family environment, and on a cultural level.

Maybe you should write a letter to the zoo and ask them to re-frame and make clear a policy which states that people who wear clothes with profanities on them could be given the option of turning them inside out before being kicked out of the zoo.

I suppose we could have a long discussion about rights here.... It seems to me that people are very focused on their rights, but not always as focused on their responsibilties.

[oceanbaby]

Hmm, many issues here. Do I like the shirt? No, I find that tacky on a 7 year old. But hey, that's why mine won't wear one. I also find baby gap logos tacky on a shirt, so I certainly understand differing opinions on this.

Regarding the legality of it: The First Amendment only protects citizens from government entities, not private entities. So assuming the zoo is a private place, the First Amendment is not applicable. How is this different than breastfeeding? The right to breastfeed in a public place is a law, which I would say makes it a 'protected' group. For instance, you could not kick out someone because of their race or gender, because they are protected groups under law.

I probably would have asked them to show me where the rule against profanity is stated (but would not be surprised that they do have a rule against it at a family park). If we wanted to stay I would have offered to turn the shirt inside out, which should have been good enough for them. But otherwise, it sounds like it was within their rights to ask you to leave.

[ray_eeg]

I fully plan on allowing swear words to be used in my house (or, continue to be used ). But, IMO, part of allowing your children to use "f-ck" or any other supposedly offensive word is teaching him/her the inherent power of that word. It's teaching that sort of sensitivity (i.e. Grandma doesn't like those words in her house, so we shouldn't use them there) that is so important if you allow your child to "swear". Further, that sensitivity will hopefully lead your child (and maybe you) to question, for example whether it is appropriate to make light of the Chinese tradition of calligraphy. (Personally, I think we are all too careful to not offend anyone, but that's way OT.)

With regard to the security guard/power tripper, I would have planted my two feet and asked them whether he thought discriminating against those who chose to wear certain types of clothing was in line with enhancing family values. Or whether he felt threatened enough by your 7 year old child to forcibly remove him along with the rest of your family. I question whether rules that aren't available to patrons are really enforcible. Needless to say, I wouldn't return to that zoo!

[SabrinaJL]

Originally Posted by mocha09

I suppose we could have a long discussion about rights here.... It seems to me that people are very focused on their rights, but not always as focused on their responsibilties.

That's the best statement I've heard all day. I may have to steal that for a sig.

As far as the OT goes, I also think if there was no written policy she should have been offered the option to turn it inside out or given a refund if they preferred not to. If there WAS a written policy then the zoo was in the right.

As far as the shirt itself, I don't buy it when people say, "They're just words". Like it or not, all words have meaning. Not just definition. Meaning. Just as please and thank you are generally accepted as nice and polite, fuck and shit are generally accepted as rude and offensive.

I agree with ray_eeg too. I've told my 10 yo dd that I don't mind if she uses swear words but she needs to use her judgement about when and where it is appropriate to use them. So far the only time I've actually heard her use one was when we were reading a book aloud together.

[Mom4tot]

Originally Posted by FreeRangeMama

Right or wrong, wouldn't it be *common sense* that a shirt with profanity would create problems if worn at a place geared toward children? Are you actually surprised that someone took issue with it? They are only words, but much of the population do find it offensive, especially in relation to children. Plus, teaching children such a lack of respect for people's culture is very disturbing. It is your choice to let your child wear what he wants, but you really can't be terribly surprised at other people's reactions.

ITA.

[beaconlighthero]

Originally Posted by siddie

I wouldn't want to see profanities (even written top to bottom) at the zoo. Kids figure these things out and say it over and over for shock value. I don't want my ds saying that. I do't like to see grafitti with those words around either. nThey should have given you the option of changing shirts or getting a refund.

I agree.

[beaconlighthero]

Originally Posted by Vanna's Mom

stupid ? for the night - is that zoo you went to a public place??? If you paid to get in, it is not public right?? so if it is run by an organization they should be able to make their rules of what is okay & not okay to wear there I would think. not only to respect 'family values' but to keep their guests safe from gang violence as well or a lot of neked skin

it is your right to dress a lil girl in slutty stuff with make up at age 7 or your lil ds in a shirt with profanity on it but at a place you pay to go to that has rules for clothing posted, nope sympathy from here cause you got to play by their rules

She said that the rule was not posted and that the security guard said it was a spoken rule. I guess once I got home I would be calling the zoo asking to speak to the head person and tell them if they are going to have that rule they need to post it so everyone can see it.

[jaime302]

Just as an aside... If some states- Virginia being one of them, public profanity is illegal, a misdeamor if charged... I wonder if a shirt would fall under that? I don't know where everyone is from, but it might be an important note to point out

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I believe the zoo was well within its rights to request that you either remove the shirt, turn it inside out, or leave. I do not believe that, legally, they have to have a specific policy beyond "inappropriate behaviour is not permitted". However, clearly the security person overstepped by being rude and threatening to you and your family. If I were the OP, I would protest over the WAY they were treated, but I do not believe there is any real opportunity to protest WHY they were asked to leave. IMHO, no refund is due, though the opportunity to purchase another shirt, change (I always have at least one spare set of clothes for each kid), or turn the shirt inside out should have been given.

People can chose to wear what they like, or have their kids dress as they like. But in some situations those clothes are inappropriate and businesses have the right to enforce their own standards. That is why some restaurants still have dress codes. Even the ballpart here has dress requirements (you have to have a shirt on). That is legal and, IMHO, appropriate for them to do. You either follow their rules or you don't go.

[mountain mom]

Originally Posted by Shann

My son (age 7), and our entire family, got asked to leave the zoo because he was wearing a shirt the said (across the top): "Ancient Chinese proverb:" and then had Chinese style writing (written from bottom to top)--in English--"Fuck this Shit". It looked like Chinese writing when you looked at it from straight on, and you had to turn your head severely to the side to see what it really said in English. My cousin bought this shirt for my son, and it really is adorable on him---AND he loves it ! cop" I asked him to show me in writing where it said that in the zoo policies, and he said it was just a "spoken rule" and "should be obvious" that they wouldn't allow such a thing in a "family environment" ! I feel my son's rights were violated

Okay there is a few things in this post that hit a nerve with me. I have read over the entire thread and posts by Kama, Indie and Oceanbaby resonated with the way I feel too.

But I just have to try and understand....What part of this t-shirt is adorable? It is a clearly racist t-shirt. Do you not see that? Chinese proverb....fuck this shirt?

I would be offended greatly if a saw a [/I]seven[I] year old wearing this shirt. I am glad that the zoo kicked him out and to compare the right to wear this tshirt in public to the right to breastfeed in public (which is a law) is plan idiocy.

And you claim your son's right are violated...what about the rights of all the other families to not see such garbage!

Flame me if you will. I think profanity is a sign of ignorance.

[AahRee]

Originally Posted by sbf

What if they made a rule that all females have to wear dresses? And what about that pro-peace shirt?

If these were the rules for our zoo, I'd either comply or not go. Breastfeeding is a different issue. That's not about what someone is wearing, it's about feeding a child. Surely, most of us here realize that.

[greymama]

If my child had seen that shirt and read it, I might have kicked you out myself. I even hate to see adults wear shirts that have ignorant and stupid sayings written on them. It's not funny, it's not cute and it's not adorable. It's ignorant. Yes, you should have had the opportunity to turn the shirt inside out and I would have asked the security gaurd if that was an option. I mean are you really surprised that shirt is offensive? C'mon! I'm also a little taken back by the fact that you 7-year-old son says "f--- their policies."

[mamaduck]

Uh... I would be upset to see *anyone* at the zoo where a shirt with profanity on it. I'm not sure why its worse on a 7 yo. In fact, I would feel more threatened seeing it on a grown man at the zoo.